Why water into wine?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Unfortunately my preferred source of reference when it comes to prayer is not Webster but the Bible and Christ Himself.
Who said"
When you pray, pray;" Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." Matthew 6:9
But thou, when thou pray, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:6j
Even Jesus prayed to the Father, not the Spirit.
And you're just playing stupid semantic games when you dismiss the fact that "Pray" have several meanings - the primary of which simply means "To ASK."
Words matter - especially when there is more than one definition.

Do YOU only pray behind closed doors?? Do you not pray in church?? Do YOU only pray to the Father and NOT Jesus??
Your hypocrisy is appalling . . .
So was the thief on the cross reality, but you conveniently said it was an exception. You can't have it both ways. Exceptions when they don't support your theology and not an exception in order to support other lies.
The Transfiguration and the Thief on the cross are completely different - apples and oranges.
One is a stark reality for ALL - and the other is an exception.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, the Bible that the Roman Church uses is different also. Yet, you said you knew that Luther removed some of the books of the Bible, which can only mean you support the apocrypha found in the Roman Bible. (post #706) Yet you now say you use the Protestant Bible. Why would you use a Protestant Bible if you believe it doesn't contain all the Word of God?

Stranger
The King James Version - THE Protestant translation, originally contained the 7 Deuterocanonical Books.
It wasn't until later that they were removed, as Protestantism went further down the rabbit hole . . .
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I wish Catholics wouldn't put down Protestants
and Protestants wouldn't put down Catholics.
We're all just trying to serve God the best way we can.
We should keep Jesus Always in mind and not quibble over things.

Do we think God is Catholic?
Or of any other denomination?
Who cares what books are in the bible?
Do we worship the bible
or do we worship GOD??
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pisteuo

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see you're a Greek expert now. Full of Grace or Highly Favoured KJV does not mean sinless. This doctrine goes against everything about sinners. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" "No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;" "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one" "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

But, wait for it .......................Mary must be an exception and therefore on your word or your most puerile exegesis we should all believe what you say.
You are starting to embarrass yourself.
Time for a Bible lesson . . .

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by people like YOU who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”

Is that right? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason?
What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will?
What about

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt...there is none that does good.’”

Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
Gee - I thought NOBODY was righteous . . .

St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the celebration. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born. You don't know your Bible very well . . .
And Mary's Assumption is based on the woman in revelation who has a full body. Is that the new "ad lib" interpretation? Does the word Assumption include the word assume in it? Because you are sure good at that. Let me see. The Word says nothing about Mary's death and the C church doesn't say anything either, so the obvious conclusion is that she took a giant leap and ended up in heaven. Bravo! Except that the woman in Revelation is indicative of Israel not Mary.
The Woman can also represent the Church. This is a polyvalent symbol (sorry for the big word).
In the verse that preceds this (Rev. 11:19), we see that this "Woman" is the Ark in Heaven.

Who else carried the New Covenant within them??
Israel?? No - they rejected Him. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant:

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mar, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).


The Woman in Rev. 12 is Mary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Time for a Bible lesson . . .

In Romans 3:10, 23, the idea that Paul was speaking literally about everybody is sometimes pointed to by people like YOU who twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Paul says: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”

Is that right? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason?
What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will?
What about

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool (the evil) says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt...there is none that does good.’”

Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
Gee - I thought NOBODY was righteous . . .

St. Paul was using inclusive language, as was the Psalmist. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the celebration. The mass of mankind is what is being referred to in these passages – not every individual human being ever born. You don't know your Bible very well . . .

The Woman can also represent the Church. This is a polyvalent symbol (sorry for the big word).
In the verse that preceds this (Rev. 11:19), we see that this "Woman" is the Ark in Heaven.

Who else carried the New Covenant within them??
Israel?? No - they rejected Him. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant:

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mar, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).


The Woman in Rev. 12 is Mary.
I kind of dislike your attitude, although I DO understand why since you're so attacked.

However, the post is excellent.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I wish Catholics wouldn't put down Protestants
and Protestants wouldn't put down Catholics.
We're all just trying to serve God the best way we can.
We should keep Jesus Always in mind and not quibble over things.

Do we think God is Catholic?
Or of any other denomination?
Who cares what books are in the bible?
Do we worship the bible
or do we worship GOD??
First of all - I don't "put down" Protestants.
I squash anti-Catholic arguments.

Secondly - your question as to "who cares" what Books are in the bible is astounding.
It is the written Word of Almighty God. It DOES matter which Books are in it - and which Books were removed by Protestants.

Remember - Jesus IS the Word (John 1:1) - and when you edit the Word - you are attempting to edit HIM . . ..
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Too bad your theology doesn't line up with the Word of God.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

The blood of Christ is like the blood of the lamb that freed the Israelite from Egypt, land of idolatry and death, and brought them into the Promised land. Christ blood is enough, and even more efficacious Heb. 9:13-14, to cleanse us and lead us into heaven. When God forgives us he clothes us with His righteousness, 2 Cor. 5:21, is that not enough for heaven?

I am beginning to see how your theology works. You read God's Word and interpret it so lines up with the C church tradition what all ECF's have said. Everything, including the Bible, becomes subject to your tradition.
The Blood of Christ is what allows us to be cleansed - because we certainly don't deserve it.
This is why the Protestant author C.S. Lewis once quipped, "The mercy of God DEMANDS Purgatory."

This isn't something that is "added" to God's plan for salvation - it is an essential part of it - the FINAL part.

Rev. 21:27
says that nothing unclean or impure can enter Heaven.
How many perfectly pure people do YOU know??
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
First of all - I don't "put down" Protestants.
I squash anti-Catholic arguments.

Secondly - your question as to "who cares" what Books are in the bible is astounding.
It is the written Word of Almighty God. It DOES matter which Books are in it - and which Books were removed by Protestants.

Remember - Jesus IS the Word (John 1:1) - and when you edit the Word - you are attempting to edit HIM . . ..
My point is that JESUS IS THE WORD.
Sometimes we treat the bible like the bible is GOD.
See?

I'm sorry some are anti-Catholic.
Some call Catholicism a cult.
That's pretty crazy since it's Catholicism that kept heresies out of the early Church.
If it wasn't for the C C there wouldn't be any Christianity as we know it today.

I admire your stamina and your knowledge.
I guess I could say to keep up the good work.
Just try to be a little nicer...
You're posts are very good and very well thought out.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
The Blood of Christ is what allows us to be cleansed - because we certainly don't deserve it.
This is why the Protestant author C.S. Lewis once quipped, "The mercy of God DEMANDS Purgatory."

This isn't something that is "added" to God's plan for salvation - it is an essential part of it - the FINAL part.

Rev. 21:27
says that nothing unclean or impure can enter Heaven.
How many perfectly pure people do YOU know??
I do have to say that purgatory is a big poblem for me.
Does it not mean that the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is the thief on the cross an exception to???

Works???
No - Baptism.

Jesus and the Apostles state that Baptism is necessary (John 3:5, Mark 6:16).
Most Protestants reject this idea. The Thief was an exception to the rule because he didn't have a chance to be baptized when he came to Christ. He was a little "busy" at the time . . .

The same is true for those who desire to be baptized and didn't have the chance.
Martyrs, last minute conversions, etc.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My point is that JESUS IS THE WORD.
Sometimes we treat the bible like the bible is GOD.
See?

I'm sorry some are anti-Catholic.
Some call Catholicism a cult.
That's pretty crazy since it's Catholicism that kept heresies out of the early Church.
If it wasn't for the C C there wouldn't be any Christianity as we know it today.

I admire your stamina and your knowledge.
I guess I could say to keep up the good work.
Just try to be a little nicer...
You're posts are very good and very well thought out.
Thank you.

It's irresponsible to allow these perverted and nonsensical accusations to simply "pass".
there are too many people who visit forums like this who are seduced by the lies and never get a chance to hear the other side.

My mission here is not to make enemies - but to simply expose the lies.
I haven't created a single thread on this forum and never will. I'm not here to "put down" Protestants or anybody else.
I'm solely on a "seek and destroy" the lies mission
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do have to say that purgatory is a big poblem for me.
Does it not mean that the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient?
Nope.
It means that is is the last part of the benefits of His sacrifice.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Thank you.

It's irresponsible to allow these perverted and nonsensical accusations to simply "pass".
there are too many people who visit forums like this who are seduced by the lies and never get a chance to hear the other side.

My mission here is not to make enemies - but to simply expose the lies.
I haven't created a single thread on this forum and never will. I'm not here to "put down" Protestants or anybody else.
I'm solely on a "seek and destroy" the lies mission
Seek and destroy?

th
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
14,082
7,310
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Nope.
It means that is is the last part of the benefits of His sacrifice.
I have to leave now.
But I've studied this carefully and even spoken to priests about this (I have some priest friends) and I just can't seem to get there.

If you have anything other than Corinthians or even Mccabees, I'd be interested in hearing it.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,657
3,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The C church changed the 10 commandments to accommodate their idolatry.
'Nuff said
And this is precisely the kind of stupid, uninformed anti-Catholic remark I'm here to expose.
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

In Exodus 20, where we first see the list of Commandments, we read in verses 3 and 5 that this is not simply a commandment against the making of statues and images. It is clearly talking about not making gods out of them and not bowing to them and serving them. The Church has always condemned this practice as well.

If this were a Commandment against the creation of images and statues, then God would have violated His own law by commanding Moses just a few chapters later to create 2 golden images of Cherubim to place atop the Ark (Exod. 25:18-22).

His supposed hypocrisy would have also extended to commanding Moses later on to create a bronze serpent and place it on a pole so that those who looked upon it would be healed (Num. 21:8-9). We also read other examples of God being pleased with the creation of statues (I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). When we read those verses in context, we see that God’s prohibition is against making idols to worship and not the creation of images. This is ALL covered in the Catholic rendering of the first Commandment about having “other gods”.

Exodus 34:28 tells us that there are “Ten” commandments, even though Bible doesn’t number them. As a matter of fact, if you were to count all of the “You shall nots” alongside the other two that command the keeping of the Sabbath and honoring your father and mother – you would wind up with at least thirteen. Numbering them depends on exactly which “You shall nots” you group together and which ones you leave separate.

Protestants commonly split up the first Commandment into two and combine the last two into one, where we see a prohibition against the coveting of your neighbor’s wife and of ––his property. Women and property are NOT the same thing. Gal. 3:26-28 tells us that there is NO difference among those belong to Christ:
“For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus.”

In Deuteronomy 5, we see another version of the list. Here, we see a clear distinction between a man’s wife and his property. A different word for the desire of a man’s property is used than that of the desire for his wife.

Chamad (תחמד), is used to describe the coveting a man’s wife as opposed to 'Avah (תתאוה), which is used to describe the desire for a man’s property. Chamad has a connotation of sexual desire and lust, whereas, ‘Avah means to crave or to be greedy for something material.

We now see that there are two different Commandments here and not one jumbled, all-inclusive commandment. We must remember that in Gen. 2:24, God declared that, in the union between a husband and wife, the two become ONE flesh. Jesus reiterates this fact in Mark 10:8.

Nobody "changed" anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,825
3,151
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Please don't put words into my mouth.
If you don't understand me, fine, but don't misquote me.

First of all the Catholic bible is exactly the same as the Protestant bible except it has 7 extra books.

Luther DID REMOVE 7 books at the reformation because they went against his beliefs so he just removed them.

The Protestant bible contains THE WORD OF GOD.
Since the Catholic bible has 7 extra books in the Old Testament, it ALSO CONTAINS THE WORD OF GOD. Protestants also use these books in some churches.

For those interested in knowing more since I'm not an expert:
Biblical apocrypha - Wikipedia

Didn't mean to misrepresent you, if I did. I wasn't really 'quoting' you, just making a point concerning things you said.

Well, that means it is not the same.

The apocryphal books were always in question. That is why they had the term apocryphal. The Reformers usually placed them by themselves at the end of the Bible with the note that they were not inspired Scripture but could be used for history etc. etc. Which is why it is found in the early KJV. But they were never received as Scripture by the KJV interpreters. If Luther could move books out of the Bible because he thought they disagreed with him, then he would have taken James and Esther out also. Of course, as you say, Luther did not like them.

The Roman Church says they have 7 extra books. But that just isn't so. They also incorporated into Daniel, the books of Susannah and Bel and the Dragon. And, extra writings have been added to the book of Esther also.

I am glad you use a Protestant Bible.

Stranger