Why you as a Christian are as sinless as God is Holy....

[Kidron]

The Law is fulfilled for those that walk in Christ and remain in grace.

The law was fulfilled BY Christ and we are IN CHRIST, and that is why we are sinless.



Have you ever heard of any law that has no penalty?

Christ's DEATH is the full payment for the penalty due the Law.
Has no one ever explained this to you?
After he paid, the law for a believer was abolished and we are no longer "Under the Law" "but under Grace".....Galatians 3:25
He paid OUR PENALTY, and this is called "Grace" and "Salvation".
Its a FREE GIFT....Ephesians 2:8



K

- If they eventually come to the point where they realize they are doing that and ask God with all sincerity for forgiveness, He will forgive them.

Foreigner,

God has already forgiven ALL sins.........2nd Corinthians 5:19
Jesus paid the full price to achieve our eternal redemption.
Following this, all who come to the Cross and by faith receive the ATONEMENT, are completely and eternally pardoned.

The reason we as believers confess our works of the flesh, is not to be forgiven again, as this has already been accomplished once and forever.., so
the reason we confess is to maintain a clean and perfect >fellowship< with God our Father.
This is not to be confused with confessing "sins" to stay saved, as confession does not save.......only the Blood of Christ and the death of Christ applied to you can save.

Think of confession like this..

The bible tells you to make things right with a Brother in the Lord if you offend or harm him.
But why is he your brother in the Lord to begin with?
Is it because you confess your wrong?
No, hes your brother because of what CHRIST DID FOR YOU BOTH.
Christ on the CROSS established this relationship.
So, your confession, only reestablishes a good relationship with the brother, while the blood of Christ made you his brother.
Follow me?

So, if you never confess to the offended brother, he is STILL your brother.

Its the same with God.
If you never confess your wrong, he is still your FATHER, because he became your Father not based on your confession or your lifestyle, but because of what CHRIST did for you that cant be undone.
So, your son ship position of ADOPTION can not be changed based on your behavior as it was never established based on your behavior.
It was established based on what CHRIST DID FOR YOU = For FREE...Romans 5:17



K

 

[mark s]

It's only right and healthy to acknowledge to someone, and apologize, when we wrong them. And when it's God, and He's the one who will work with us to deal with our sins, then we have to start from reality. And you can't do that if you will not acknowledge the truth about yourself and your sin.

IMO.

 

[Kidron]

Hi Kidron,

It seems to me that although you base your gospel on some of the truths in the New Testament, the way you offer the application of these truths strays from the great spiritual safety available through confining our understanding and preaching, to the New Testament's explanations. This includes repenting when when necessary, and seeking forgiveness from both God and man.

We never have to "seek forgiveness" over and over from God, as all our sins have been paid for once and for all by Christ.
Thats what he's doing up there on the tree, Dfly.
And the reason we "confess" to God , is not to be "forgiven again", as we are already redeemed, ...but rather there is a fellowship issue that is created when we
do works of the flesh, and so, to restore a right "fellowship" with our Father, we tell him we are "sorry".
This is not to become "saved" over and over, as you cant be born again over and over.
Understand?
So, confession, is simply done to restore a correct and perfect fellowship that has been injured by our fleshly deed.


The major difference in the New Covenant is that all our sins up to the date we first believed in Christ for salvation, are cleansed from our souls.

This ^^^^ is where you take a left turn and leave the truth far behind.
Ive explained this to you very deeply and have used a lot of verses, so, im not going to do it again and again.
There is no reason that you cant understand that the Law is gone and forgiveness is eternal.
You just dont want to accept it, and so, i'll leave you to your theory.
Listen, when you read......."for sins that are past"...........you are reading it......"past sins forgiven, but not the current ones".
What the verse actually means is that "Christ became sin for you, and God no longer holds you accountable and does not impute your sins to you ever again because he has laid them all on CHRIST who DIED FOR THEM ALL".
Try to BELIEVE Romans 4:8
Try to believe Romans 4:5
Try to believe Romans 4:14,15

They are no longer merely 'covered' (hidden from God's sight) by the blood of animals (Heb 10:4). This huge difference has to be respected fully; and if a Christian sins, he is intended to experience heartfelt repentance, especially when he remembers the great cost to His Lord and Master Jesus Christ through whom he first found redemption. He is not automatically forgiven.

Why to you keep trying to prove that a born again Son of God is unforgiven and then forgiven again and again and again over and over and over after they are saved, based on repentance?
This is ridiculous New Testament Grace rejecting theology you are spouting, Dfly.
The blood of Christ , once applied, cannot be "sinned away" by you or any other Christian.
Dont you understand that Grace is greater then sin?
When you read that the law is abolished in, 2nd Corinthians 3:11,13 and that we are no longer under the law but under Grace ....Galatians 3:25.. why cant you just believe it?
Why must you take a stand against Grace?

The way you are mixing the eternal truths which stand independently of a person's response to God in light of them, and, the condition of a person who has once come to Christ for salvation, gives rise to a wrong attitude to sin, and, a wrong attitude to the blood of the everlasting covenant.

Im telling you what Paul wrote.
He is the one who taught what im telling you.
He is the one who wrote that sin is not charged to you.....2nd Corinthians 5:19
He is the one who said the law is abolished......and that we are no longer under it.....Galatians 3:25
You are the one arguing with it .

That your gospel does not touch on the power over sin which comes through being baptised into Christ's death, and the receiving of the Holy Spirit to live and walk in that power, may indicate that you yourself have been a victim of the preaching of a false gospel - at least in respect to those points in which your proclamation of it, fails to comply with the New Covenant teaching of the apostles.

That your opinion here does not contain any truth, is duly noted.
You are someone who is trying to live under the law to be saved, so, as that is the case, does your low opinion of Paul's theology mean a lot to me?
Not quite.


Lastly, your use of Romans 4:15, which solely applies to the time before the Mosaic Law was ever given, is unsound, because there are at least six other laws mentioned in the New Testament which are relevant to our eternal salvation.

There are no Mosaic laws relevant to anyone's justification by Faith in Christ alone.
Who are you kidding with that legalistic nonsense.?
Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law, Galatians 3:13 and here you are arguing why we need to be under 6 other laws to be saved.
Geez, what a theological mess you have made.
You make me smile with your devout legalism, as its so thick that i think i could spread it over a cake for frosting.
Nice try.


K

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

It's clear you have developed your own version of the gospel and as I said, although it has features of the truth, you are constantly adding to it.

When I quote 'sins that are past', I mean exactly what Paul means. That is, that while I'm in prayer, repenting before God, for all my past sins, I am not sinning. I am not sinning purely by virtue of my existence, as you seem to believe you are - and by implication everyone else.

You seem to have lumped 'the sin' together with 'sins'. An individual sinful action is an outworking of 'the sin'. Once we have accepted Christ's death as our own death, we no longer have the same battle with 'the sin'. There may be individual sins flowing from past habits, falling into temptation - or choosing to sin - but the behaviour of our flesh is no longer out of our control like it was when we were in bondage to sin (and death).

The relationship we enter with God our Father, necessitates that 'forgiveness' takes place. There can be no forgiveness unless we approach Him with a contrite heart. Jesus said 'if thy brother repent, forgive him'. The same applies to our relationship with God. If we repent, He will forgive us. This is part of keeping all our relationships 'right' - beginning with God, and extending to others.

Clearly, you have no idea what I'm talking about with regard to law in the New Covenant, but you could study that on your own. I have never suggested that a Christian should keep the Mosaic Law, but, you are completely wrong that there is now 'no law', and, the verses which you use to make that claim, are out of context entirely.

There is a way to explain how the Mosiac Law ended, but you don't do that. You just grasp at random scriptures to support what you think you know, which it seems, you really do believe. I have no idea how God views your theology. I just know... it's not wholly Biblical.

 

[aspen]

All relationships with human beings must involve reconciliation because we are incapable of loving perfectly (living without sinning). I am looking forward to Heaven when we will be able to worship God and love Him and His Body perfectly.

 

[Axehead]

Clearly, many don't see our relationship with Jesus Christ as a covenant relationship, and covenants have blessings and curses.

1Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

The Old Covenant had blessings and curses and the New Covenant has blessings and curses, but many have used their "Virtual Scissors" to cut out all the Curses (Warnings) in the New Testament so that all that remains are the BLESSINGS!

Here is one of those verses that got "cut out".
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (Gal 6:7)

Here is another one:
Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It's time to wake up folks. We cannot afford to be "Sleeping Virgins".

Axehead

 

[mark s]

Clearly, many don't see our relationship with Jesus Christ as a covenant relationship, and covenants have blessings and curses.

1Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

The Old Covenant had blessings and curses and the New Covenant has blessings and curses, but many have used their "Virtual Scissors" to cut out all the Curses (Warnings) in the New Testament so that all that remains are the BLESSINGS!

Here is one of those verses that got "cut out".
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (Gal 6:7)

Here is another one:
Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It's time to wake up folks. We cannot afford to be "Sleeping Virgins".

Axehead

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Regarding the book of Life . . .


Ex 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.

Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written [do not stand written – perfect passive indicitive of grapho – having been completed in a permanent state, that is,do not remain written] in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written [same as 13:8] in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

These tell us some things about God's record keeping.

When someone sins, God blots their name from His book. Those who overcome are not blotted from the book. Those who do not worship the beast are those whose names remain in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Their names have never been blotted out.

Therefore, the blotting out of a name from the book of life corresponds to the imputation of sin.

Those who trust in Jesus do not have sin imputed.

The names were written in when the world began. The names of the redeemed are written and remain written. The names of the lost were written at the beginning of the world, and as they sin, not having received Jesus' righteousness, their names are blotted out.

But that our names remain, tell us something interesting about God and time.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Kidron]

And we should come quickly to repent and receive forgiveness. I think you meant they will "reap what they sow". Yes, that Law still has penalties, today.



Galatians 6:7

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]7 [/sup]Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. <--- This is NT - Can you believe God would mix this verse in with the Gospel of Grace?

And could you believe that your verse has nothing to do with salvation, holiness, righteousness, or anything we are discussing.?
I can believe it.
Congrats.

But, to speak to your verse,.........there is a spiritual law in the universe as related to "acts" and "deeds", and this "sowing and reaping", is defined by other religions as "karma"..
So, sure, every single thing you do is a seed of choice that will develop into a harvest of consequence.



K

Hi Mark,



The scripture which you posted indicates that the spiritual consequences of our sins were paid for when Christ died on the cross and rose again, (two thousand years ago) but we cannot assume we are saved purely on the basis of being aware of that information.

'Spiritual Consequences".....
Dfly, c'mon......., if the DEATH of Christ only paid for the "spiritual consequence" of our acts then noone is LITERALLY saved.


There is a need for each person who wishes to avail themselves of the salvation offered through faith in Jesus Christ, to turn away from sin with their whole heart - and seek His forgiveness. The transaction which takes place between that person and the Lord, is the point at which - if they have received His acceptance - they may begin to consider themselves being 'saved' - that is, being saved from the wrath of God which they would have had to face for their unrepented and unforgiven sins.

Well, you have 50 % of it here, Dfly.
The other 50% you left out is "imputed righteousness".

but God really does expect us to behave like a family member, remembering whose child we have become.

Yes, but he does not require this to BE saved or to STAY saved.
Thats the point.
Christ SAVES us, based on what HE DID, and then because we ARE SAVED we then as disciples SHOULD walk in newness of mind , heart , and life.
But NOT TO STAY SAVED............but because we ARE saved.
And the minute a person switches from Grace to "living it", "doing right" "legalish" as you are teaching,..= to try to STAY SAVED, then they have "fallen from Grace", Galatians 5:4.

If a believer commits a sin - whether knowingly at the time or it is brought to their attention afterwards somehow - they should still approach God with a repentant heart to receive forgiveness for that sin. It is not a 'done deal' between the believer and God until their status of having been washed in His blood, has been renewed.

Yes, its a done deal" on the Cross, its a competed Atonement, and this atonement is not based on you repenting later after you are saved.
You dont repent later for Forgiveness that is already completed<...........you "repent later" to reestablish the damaged fellowship.
See, you are a family member of God, because you are born again into his family.
You cant be born out of it.......but you can damage the fellowship by committing works of the flesh.\
And when you do, of course you tell God you are sorry and you stop,..........but not to be saved again and again, or forgiven again and again.
He's already redeemed you, Dfly, you cant be redeemed over and over, unless Christ comes to die again and again.



It's a bit of a dead giveaway for there to be so many threads on sins and sinning - especially the threads which say it's okay to sin and God doesn't need your repentance and we don't need His further forgiveness when we sin because He already paid for us;

You will never find a thread by me that says "its ok to sin", so, im certain you are not talking to me about my Thread.
I'll tell you and i have that if you live in sin as a Believer, ...1st comes Hebrew 12: 6 ....and if that does not do it.....you will lose your testimony, your fellowship with God.(not your salvation), you life will spiral into darkness, and according to Paul, you will die.
Thats what happens to you if you "live in the works of the flesh".
Will you go to heaven ?
yep.
And the reason is.........Your works, ither good or for bad, cant save you, nor can they keep you saved.
Salvation, is distinct and seperate from your LIFESTYLE.
If it wasn't then it would not be GRACE.....Romans 4:2-5






K

This entire thread is a concoction of middle class Christendom. The idea is more ownership. Now that you have that wife (or husband), that job, that car, that house, that dog, that boat...you can have that Jesus too!!!!

It is a completely unsanctified grasp at the promises of "pleasure verses". As I have said repeatedly, it is the carnal nature seeking to play masquerade with the promises of God.

The truth is........my Thread is simply a very basic 'sunday school" 101 lesson on..... "Justification by Faith alone".
Thats all it is.
And the reason it is rubbing the hair off some of the legalists here, is because that is always what a teaching on "faith" and "justification" does to those who are self-righteous and spend their entire Christian life trying to keep themselves saved by their works and lifestyle, instead of committing that responsibility solely and utterly >BY FAITH < to the one who hung on a Cross for that very purpose.


See, we have 2 camps here.

Those who write pages and pages trying to prove that what they do THEMSELVES > after< they are saved is what saves them....and keeps them saved

vs,

The ones who agree with Paul who teaches that everything but faith alone is "works" and understand that nothing but the Blood of Jesus can save and maintain the "saved".



K

 

[aspen]

funny how some Christians give themselves free reign to be as self righteous as they want to be about everything Christian, as long as they proclaim 'faith alone' (not found in nonLuther molested scripture) and claim that somehow they are unique in the idea that God chooses us - despite the fact that every Christian church on the planet teaches this idea using different terminology......

oh how meek....

 

[Kidron]

Heresy?! You mean the Church that assembled the Canon of the Book Protestants use (despite scriptural evidence) as their sole authority?

Developed the "cannon" and then violated the Greek texts to the point that Mary is the exaulted Queen of Heaven,............ Priests cant marry, ....Priests have magic powers, there are prayers for the DEAD, ..............Purgatory..........Penance for Sin.........Mary dying a virgin and ascending into the sky just like Jesus did..,.... The pope as God's earthly authority......praying to saints.......Denying that justification by Faith alone is how to be saved.....
The list of heresy regarding the RC Church is like an encyclopedia of false information and lies.
Its unbelievable how this one "church" has twisted and reinvented their religion and brainwashes its followers.

Heresy?! You mean the Church that developed the doctrine of the Trinity to describe the true nature of God as revealed from the Bible and Tradition, which the Protestant church adopted during the Reformation??

Yes, they developed this, and then turn right around and deny the very Justification by FAITH that Paul teaches.
Isn't it remarkable?

Heresy?! You mean the Church that developed the doctrine of the Incarnation that describes the true nature of Christ from the Bible and Tradition, which was adopted by the Reformers?

You mean they read ..........."God manifested in the flesh" in Greek, and like anyone who can read Greek, .......can understand this?
You mean they can read........."I and my Father are ONE".........and "Before Abraham was I AM"........and can read that "in the beginning was the Word" and "Jesus is the word made flesh"..............They can read all that in the Greek and understand it?
So can anyone else.

Heresy?! You mean the Church that rightfully calls Mary, the Mother of God, 'blessed'; a belief shared by Luther and Calvin???

Actually, it was Mary who called herself "blessed"........if you care to read your bible........
Luke 1:48.

Oh...you mean the Catholic Church!

Yep, thats the one.
The one that exalts Mary as the other mediator of salvation,....the one that removed the 4th commandment from their "bible"....the one that burned, in the "dark ages", those who preached what Paul taught and to this very day will foam at the mouth on a forum against the same theology.
Thats the group.


K

Hi Kidron,

It's clear you have developed your own version of the gospel and as I said, although it has features of the truth, you are constantly adding to it.

Dfly....I'll tell you what's clear as a pool full of crystals..
You have written me a book on this Thread, and every page is crammed with "legalism", while Grace and the blood of Christ is missing from your text.
The other thing that is clear, is the fact that what im showing you, is the most basic understanding of "justification by faith"., and the only thing i "add to it", is a few more scriptures, as given by Paul, to help you find some light.

When I quote 'sins that are past', I mean exactly what Paul means. That is, that while I'm in prayer, repenting before God, for all my past sins, I am not sinning. I am not sinning purely by virtue of my existence, as you seem to believe you are - and by implication everyone else.

"Sins that are past" , simply means that ALL your sins are in the past history of God, Psalm 103:12 as Christ has paid in full for every one you've committed so far today, and every one you will ever do , forever..
Your sins are gone, as they have ALL been paid for by the blood of Christ = Christ's finished work.
Dfly,.....When Satan would prosecute you for your next 569 sins you will commit in the next 2 weeks, Jesus stands before God and says....."REMEMBER WHAT I DID".
Then God says.........."case closed"................PARDONED.!!


You seem to have lumped 'the sin' together with 'sins'. An individual sinful action is an outworking of 'the sin'. Once we have accepted Christ's death as our own death, we no longer have the same battle with 'the sin'. There may be individual sins flowing from past habits, falling into temptation - or choosing to sin - but the behaviour of our flesh is no longer out of our control like it was when we were in bondage to sin (and death).


No, what i did was accept that Christ's death on the cross eternally justifies me before God according to Paul.......Galatians 3:24
And Jesus told him, so, i'll go with that.
I'll accept and do believe Paul who said that Christ had abolished the Law, and that i was no longer under it, but under Grace..."Romans 6:14
I'll accept by faith that when Paul said......"Christ hath reddemed us from the curse of the law".....Its true.
And when Paul says that no Law or "works" can give "righteousness"......Galatians 3:21.....I believe him.
And i believe it when Paul says ....knowing that a believer is not justified by WORKS of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ >that we are justified< by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the LAW....for by the works of the Law shall no Person (you) be justified before God"

The relationship we enter with God our Father, necessitates that 'forgiveness' takes place. There can be no forgiveness unless we approach Him with a contrite heart. Jesus said 'if thy brother repent, forgive him'. The same applies to our relationship with God. If we repent, He will forgive us. This is part of keeping all our relationships 'right' - beginning with God, and extending to others.

God has already forgiven you.........so, the context of your scripture is to have the fellowship restored that is damaged.
Let me explain.......again.
When you are speaking of 2 "brothers in the Lord"............you are to understand that they are BROTHERS because they are born again into the same family.
So, this brotherhood is based on what Christ did to get them into the family of God.
Understand????
So, as BROTHERS we are to GET ALONG........but if we dont....as in Paul and Barnabas Acts 15:39...............
But if we dont get along, as in Peter and Paul in Galatians 2:14.....
Then all that has happened is that FELLOWSHIP has been ruined.......but we are still LITERAL BROTHERS in CHRIST because we are become this NOT BASED on saying "im sorry" or NOT....But rather we are brothers in the family, who are created so and kept by our being BORN AGAIN in the SAME FAMILY.
So, be certain, Dfly, you get the context of that "forgiveness" you are talking about, whether it is related to telling another Christian you are sorry, or if you are telling God you are sorry.
The context is not about salvation...........the context is all about FELLOWSHIP within an eternally established relationship and keeping it right.

Clearly, you have no idea what I'm talking about with regard to law in the New Covenant, but you could study that on your own. I have never suggested that a Christian should keep the Mosaic Law, but, you are completely wrong that there is now 'no law', and, the verses which you use to make that claim, are out of context entirely.

Thats right, there is no law.
Christ redeemed us from the curse of it....Galatians 3:13
We are no longer under the law...Galatians 3:25
Christ has abolished the Law and has established Grace....2nd Corinthians 3:11,13
The law was given by Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ....John 1:17

and now i have 2 scriptures from Paul that are directed at you, Dfly.
Go read them.........Galatians 4:21 and Galatians 5:4




K

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

Thanks for you endless patience with what you perceive as my failures to grasp your version of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I will have to go along with what He has revealed to me personally, instead.

I would hate you to think I don't believe in justification by faith - because I do - and yielding my members to the life of Christ in me has produced the fruit of righteousness unto holiness.

Therefore, I do not recognise the double-standards your gospel promotes - of a faith in Christ which imputes to yout all righteousness, but doesn't produce in you the righteousness of Christ's life.

As long as this is your gospel, I cannot agree with it.

I was wondering... I know you've read Romans 4. Have you ever read the whole of Romans?

 

[Axehead]

Hi Kidron,

I would hate you to think I don't believe in justification by faith - because I do - and yielding my members to the life of Christ in me has produced the fruit of righteousness unto holiness.

Therefore, I do not recognise the double-standards your gospel promotes - of a faith in Christ which imputes to yout all righteousness, but doesn't produce in you the righteousness of Christ's life.

As long as this is your gospel, I cannot agree with it.

I was wondering... I know you've read Romans 4. Have you ever read the whole of Romans?

I'm with you dragonfly. I also believe in Justification by Faith. But like James says, you have an empty confession if your faith produces nothing and you don't really have true faith, either. A tree is known by it's fruit.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

I think the problem is that men have made the gospel out to be man centered rather than God centered.

How are we justified???

By pleasing God!!! Period. There is No...i repeat NO technique by which men are saved. Neither reciting a formula, neither circumcision, neither claiming a verse we like...nothing. We would be better off being cold towards God than practicing or preaching any technique that purports to make us righteous.

God Himself is the only justifier in the real world. We either live to please ourselves....and other people OR we live to please God.

So we are made righteous ONLY by God..and this by pleasing Him!!!!

Trying to formulate a scheme that justifies men outside of God's presence is like talking about God behind His back.

I can show you that a man Phinehas killed 2 people and had the same eternal righteousness granted to him as to Abraham. Which box does this fit into???? Yet the ink that this verse is written with is just as valuable as the ink that states that Abraham is righteous!!!

Should we make a scheme whereby killing 2 people justifies us???

Or should we just stop making human schemes based on the bible?

Pleasing God and moving His heart is our calling. God will choose those who actually do this.

 

[Axehead]

[sup]To only "BELIEVE" without any follow-up manifestation of your faith is drawing near to God with your LIPS. [/sup]

[sup]You draw near to GOD with your HEART when you OBEY HIM, because you prove that you love Him.[/sup]

[sup]John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. [/sup]
[sup]John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [/sup]

[sup]Jesus KNOWS those that love Him. [/sup]

[sup]He has determined the parameters for our relationship with Him. That is the way His covenant works. You agree to be faithful to Him, because He is Faithful to you. [/sup]

[sup]Axehead[/sup]

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

I have to comment on this:

How are we justified???

By pleasing God!!! Period. There is No...i repeat NO technique by which men are saved.

Romans 5:1, 2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

When you say things like 'How are we justified??? By pleasing God!!!' you are making far more of a mystery of justification than is necessary. I know you have in your mind the necessity of obedience..... we cannot please Him unless we obey Him.... but to say there is 'no technique by which men are saved', implies the scriptures do not lay out clearly enough what a person must 'do' to be saved - and that is far from true.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

I have to comment on this:



Romans 5:1, 2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

When you say things like 'How are we justified??? By pleasing God!!!' you are making far more of a mystery of justification than is necessary. I know you have in your mind the necessity of obedience..... we cannot please Him unless we obey Him.... but to say there is 'no technique by which men are saved', implies the scriptures do not lay out clearly enough what a person must 'do' to be saved - and that is far from true.

But faith and faithfulness are not a technique. The actions change according to circumstances. It certainly does not mean we are saved by our beliefs. A parrot who is trained to always say 'Jesus' at every query is not more saved than any other parrot. Faith knows God already. We are saved NOW by knowing God. We know Him through faith. The NT is about a reconciliation to an intimate knowing of God. The OT was based on laws...which indeed led to technique. But this took the people further away from relationship with God. So then technique is a great deviation from faith in God.

Relationship is never a technique. To have faith in someone means that we will trust and act in complete confidence towards them. To walk by faith in God means that we will listen to and be guided by the Spirit in all of our dealings and choices. The bible does not say where you should live, where you should work, whom to marry...etc. These things we do by faith...or not. I think most people still just do what they prefer. But not so the disciple of Christ.

Think about this...Are we saved by not pleasing God? Does God not decide and judge us?

Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

We are here ONLY to please our Creator. Some do this knowingly...others unknowingly...but please the Lord we must do in order to live into eternity.

Joh_8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Th_4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2Ti_2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

I think your reply shows what I said - that scripture lays out very clearly how we can please God by responding appropriately to His word.

Faith and faithfulness are 'the technique' when they entirely define our right response to what God speaks to us.

The OT was based on laws...which indeed led to technique. But this took the people further away from relationship with God. So then technique is a great deviation from faith in God.

The OT laws were intended to be repetitive, but the leaders (and prophets) were always hearing from God directly, over and above the technical side of the law by which the people who kept it, would be saved.

I disagree that keeping the law took people further away from relationship with God. On the contrary, it proved the faith towards God of those who kept it. The law became the basis of their relationship with God. Their entire national identity was tied up with it.

Then Christ came, and He submitted Himself to the same strictures, to identify fully with His people. This is a key part of the gospel, and of the narrative of how God brought eternal salvation to the whole of mankind.

The people who deviated, were those whose idolatry would destroy them in the end anyway, whose hearts had never been towards knowing God to the extent that He could be known by them (as individuals) - even under that law. I think we do their reputation (and God) a great disservice by not acknowledging that when it was given, it was glorious. For those who kept it, it would lead them to eternal life!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

I think your reply shows what I said - that scripture lays out very clearly how we can please God by responding appropriately to His word.

Faith and faithfulness are 'the technique' when they entirely define our right response to what God speaks to us.

Following God is not like a science we can become expert in. I thought we were trying to defeat this type of reasoning in other threads.

The OT laws were intended to be repetitive, but the leaders (and prophets) were always hearing from God directly, over and above the technical side of the law by which the people who kept it, would be saved.

Yes, the saints led the righteous. This has always been and always will be.

I disagree that keeping the law took people further away from relationship with God. On the contrary, it proved the faith towards God of those who kept it. The law became the basis of their relationship with God. Their entire national identity was tied up with it.

Then you would have to disagree with Paul who said that those who sought to comply to the law themselves had fallen from grace. Have you now changed your viewpoint to further distance yourself from the greasy grace crowd? It is not the law itself that takes men away from God but the moralizing interpretation of it imposed by men. We see the same thing today with the various interpretations we find on this very site.

Then Christ came, and He submitted Himself to the same strictures, to identify fully with His people. This is a key part of the gospel, and of the narrative of how God brought eternal salvation to the whole of mankind.

He did this to fulfill all righteousnesses. He submitted to what was expected of Him that did not go against righteousness.

The people who deviated, were those whose idolatry would destroy them in the end anyway, whose hearts had never been towards knowing God to the extent that He could be known by them (as individuals) - even under that law. I think we do their reputation (and God) a great disservice by not acknowledging that when it was given, it was glorious. For those who kept it, it would lead them to eternal life!

We only know this because it is written for us to know who were the righteous. Holiness has always caused a scandal. Jesus was killed because He is holy...not righteous. The NT is backwards to the OT. God chooses the sinners to make saints from. God is approaching men from the opposite angle...but always with the same intent...to have a people for Himself.

 

[justaname]

I think the problem is that men have made the gospel out to be man centered rather than God centered.

How are we justified???

By pleasing God!!! Period. There is No...i repeat NO technique by which men are saved. Neither reciting a formula, neither circumcision, neither claiming a verse we like...nothing. We would be better off being cold towards God than practicing or preaching any technique that purports to make us righteous.

God Himself is the only justifier in the real world. We either live to please ourselves....and other people OR we live to please God.

So we are made righteous ONLY by God..and this by pleasing Him!!!!

Trying to formulate a scheme that justifies men outside of God's presence is like talking about God behind His back.

I can show you that a man Phinehas killed 2 people and had the same eternal righteousness granted to him as to Abraham. Which box does this fit into???? Yet the ink that this verse is written with is just as valuable as the ink that states that Abraham is righteous!!!

Should we make a scheme whereby killing 2 people justifies us???

Or should we just stop making human schemes based on the bible?

Pleasing God and moving His heart is our calling. God will choose those who actually do this.

You can and will never please God without faith.
Faith is the basis of our, Christians, righteousness.
Righteousness is imputed, through faith.



I pulled this from another thread.
Romans 10:10

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is the Biblical definition of righteousness.

To complete the fullness in scripture we have:​

James 2:20​

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?​

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?​

22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;​

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.​

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.​

The truth of righteousness is two fold in qualifications; a working faith. Yet what must one do as work, surly none are asked to sacrifice their child at the alter?​

Here is where God is changing us to His image:​

Love is our work, love everyone as ourselves. Love God most of all. To love is to be righteous, for God is love and we are His righteousness; thereby we are called to Love, in Love, by Love.​

Ephesians 1:5-6​

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

Trusting God is our work. We must trust His word when it comes to salvation, being conformed to Christ, and having power over sin in our lives. Another word for trust is faith.​

Being obedient is our work.​

Hebrews 5:8​

8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.​

9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,​

10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.​

Without doubt we are to obey Him, but what are we to obey? To love God, to love our neighbor as ourselves. We are even taught to love our enemies. If that is not an emphasis on love...

Matthew 5:21-22

21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’​

22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.​

Attitudes and emotions play a role in our physical existence, maybe more than we know. God humbles the proud, and self righteous. We are known for our love​

for one another. ​

We must run the race with the prize in focus.
God is love. We are His workmanship, His righteousness, living stones for the Lord of hosts.

James 1:25-27

23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; ​

24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. ​

25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. ​

26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. ​

27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. ​

We have an new Law we are subject, that is the Law of the Spirit, the Law of Christ. We do not have a license to sin, rather we are saved from sin and death.

LIVE FOREVER KING JESUS CHRIST!

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Now to think that any righteousness that is done through me is actually prepared beforehand by God. It is His righteousness and not my own, thereby we are His righteousness and His workmanship.
Phil 2:8-13
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,​

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10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,​

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11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

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12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; ​

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13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.​

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[Axehead]

And could you believe that your verse has nothing to do with salvation, holiness, righteousness, or anything we are discussing.?
I can believe it.
Congrats.

But, to speak to your verse,.........there is a spiritual law in the universe as related to "acts" and "deeds", and this "sowing and reaping", is defined by other religions as "karma"..
So, sure, every single thing you do is a seed of choice that will develop into a harvest of consequence.



K






The truth is........my Thread is simply a very basic 'sunday school" 101 lesson on..... "Justification by Faith alone".
Thats all it is.
And the reason it is rubbing the hair off some of the legalists here, is because that is always what a teaching on "faith" and "justification" does to those who are self-righteous and spend their entire Christian life trying to keep themselves saved by their works and lifestyle, instead of committing that responsibility solely and utterly >BY FAITH < to the one who hung on a Cross for that very purpose.


See, we have 2 camps here.

Those who write pages and pages trying to prove that what they do THEMSELVES > after< they are saved is what saves them....and keeps them saved

vs,

The ones who agree with Paul who teaches that everything but faith alone is "works" and understand that nothing but the Blood of Jesus can save and maintain the "saved".

K

Lets read the next verse: It says the the Law of Sowing and Reaping has to do with LIFE EVERLASTING.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Can this be any clearer? He is contrasting LIFE EVERLASTING with CORRUPTION. So, if you sow to the FLESH you are not going to achieve LIFE EVERLASTING. That is what it is saying, right? You receive CORRUPTION, instead. That is what my Bible says.

Is it a good thing for a Christian then, to sow to the flesh? Is someone a Christian who sows to the flesh continually? Could it be possible they received a "familiar" spirit instead of the Holy Spirit, when they prayed their prayer, raised their hand, walked the aisle? If their conversion to Jesus did not give them a hatred for sin, then they did not receive the Holy Spirit. You do realize this, don't you?

Axehead

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Regarding the book of Life . . .


Ex 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.

Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written [do not stand written – perfect passive indicitive of grapho – having been completed in a permanent state, that is,do not remain written] in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written [same as 13:8] in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

These tell us some things about God's record keeping.

When someone sins, God blots their name from His book. Those who overcome are not blotted from the book. Those who do not worship the beast are those whose names remain in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Their names have never been blotted out.

Therefore, the blotting out of a name from the book of life corresponds to the imputation of sin.

Those who trust in Jesus do not have sin imputed.

The names were written in when the world began. The names of the redeemed are written and remain written. The names of the lost were written at the beginning of the world, and as they sin, not having received Jesus' righteousness, their names are blotted out.

But that our names remain, tell us something interesting about God and time.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Those who trust in Jesus and keep trusting in Jesus till the end. Right Mark? It's not a one time thing, it's a relationship. And in this relationship of trusting in Jesus and being faithful to Him, He requires obedience from a heart of love on our part.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The ONLY WAY to ABIDE in HIS LOVE is to keep His commandments and we all want to abide in His love, right?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

So, the opposite must be true if we don't keep His commandments, we DON'T ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

There are serious consequences are there not, if we don't ABIDE IN HIS LOVE?

Axehead