Why you as a Christian are as sinless as God is Holy....
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Thank you, Mark, for having laid this out so very clearly -
'Regarding the book of Life . . .
Ex 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.
Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written [do not stand written – perfect passive indicitive of grapho – having been completed in a permanent state, that is,do not remain written] in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written [same as 13:8] in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
These tell us some things about God's record keeping.
When someone sins, God blots their name from His book. Those who overcome are not blotted from the book. Those who do not worship the beast are those whose names remain in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Their names have never been blotted out.
Therefore, the blotting out of a name from the book of life corresponds to the imputation of sin.
Those who trust in Jesus do not have sin imputed.
The names were written in when the world began. The names of the redeemed are written and remain written. The names of the lost were written at the beginning of the world, and as they sin, not having received Jesus' righteousness, their names are blotted out.'
I don't believe a person's name is blotted out with the first sin, but it's clear from Rom 1:28 and 2 Thess 2:9, 10, 11, 12, that God places limits on His toleration of wilful disobedience, associating it in both cases with 'a love of the truth'.
'Regarding the book of Life . . .
Ex 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.
Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written [do not stand written – perfect passive indicitive of grapho – having been completed in a permanent state, that is,do not remain written] in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written [same as 13:8] in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
These tell us some things about God's record keeping.
When someone sins, God blots their name from His book. Those who overcome are not blotted from the book. Those who do not worship the beast are those whose names remain in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Their names have never been blotted out.
Therefore, the blotting out of a name from the book of life corresponds to the imputation of sin.
Those who trust in Jesus do not have sin imputed.
The names were written in when the world began. The names of the redeemed are written and remain written. The names of the lost were written at the beginning of the world, and as they sin, not having received Jesus' righteousness, their names are blotted out.'
I don't believe a person's name is blotted out with the first sin, but it's clear from Rom 1:28 and 2 Thess 2:9, 10, 11, 12, that God places limits on His toleration of wilful disobedience, associating it in both cases with 'a love of the truth'.
The "Key" is: What pleases God?
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Thank you Aspen. I fail often to acknowledge your encouraging "Amens" (and others).
Axehead
That's an interesting thought. I can think of a few other places too that speak of God's patience and tolerance, when God waited.
Something for me to think about!
Love in Christ,
Mark
Exactly!
You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created. Rev. 4:11
1Co_10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Exactly!
You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created. Rev. 4:11
1Co_10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Hi Episkopos,
Many say that the book of Hebrews is not for Gentiles, but the entire BIBLE is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in RIGHTEOUSNESS for all those who want to "purify their hearts by obeying the truth" (1 Pet 1:22).
2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Isn't it interesting how Christians can identify with some stories in the Old Testament that don't require obedience? They identify with being "freed from Egypt" as "being set free from slaves of sin". They relate to the parting of the Red Sea (Baptism) and they even relate to some aspects of wandering around in the wilderness (world). But they don't want to relate to God's dealings with men for their unrighteousness and their unrighteous acts. Many refuse to see the correlation of God's character regarding OBEDIENCE in the Old Testament and OBEDIENCE in the New Testament and HOW HE TREATS DISOBEDIENCE the SAME in both Testaments - Chastisement and if we continue in our disobedience and harden our hearts, then we become part of the GREAT FALLING AWAY.
One of the problems is that many today do not see their walk with God through Jesus Christ as a Covenant, therefore all the valuable lessons in the Old Testament mean nothing in their lives. Especially, anything that has to do with obedience or disobedience
Between both Testaments the nature and character of God has not changed.
Let's see if anything has changed about God between the Testaments.
OLD TESTAMENT - Hebrew word (shama) means "to hear, listen, obey"
Exod. 19:5 - "if you obey My voice ..., you shall be My possession"
Exod. 24:7 - "All that the Lord has spoken we will do; we will be obedient"
Deut. 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one"
Deut. 11:13 - "if you listen obediently to My commandments"
I Sam. 15:22 - "to obey is better than sacrifice"
Ps. 81:11 - "My people did not listen to My voice; Israel did not obey Me"
NEW TESTAMENT - Greek word (hupakouu) - "to listen under, to obey;"
opposite is (parakouo) - "to listen around, beside, disobedience"
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom. 5:19)
Rom. 1:5 - "obedience of faith among the Gentiles"
Rom. 16:26 - "obedience of faith"
II Cor. 10:5 -"taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ"
II Thess. 1:8 - "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus"
Heb. 5:9 - "He became to all who obey Him the source of salvation"
I Pet. 1:2 - "that you may obey Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:14 - "As obedient children...be holy"
I Pet. 1:22 - "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit"
Greek words (peitho) and (peitharcheo) - "to persuade, convince;" opposite is (apeitheo) - "unconvinced, disobedient" (Eph. 2:2; 5:6)
Acts 5:29 - "we must obey God rather than men"
Acts 5:32 - "the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him."
Rom. 2:8 - "do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"
Gal. 5:7 - "who hindered you from obeying the truth?"
Certainly, because of the death of Jesus His Son, He extends His mercy and forgiveness to all who turn to His Son and away from everything that is not of Him. (That is true belief).
So, has anything changed regarding God's nature and character and how He deals with men when it comes to disobedience? No!
But men say, if you "just believe", then you are "SAFE". And that is indeed a fantasy
1Pe_1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation (behaviour).
1Pe_1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Axehead
Agreed!
The idea of obedience and pleasing God are not unrelated....in fact they are exactly related. When we obey the Lord He is pleased...when we disobey the Lord He is displeased.
Obedience is what pleases Him.
So doing what is right is both obedience and to please Him.
I see a distinction between what pleases God and what satisfies God (well pleased). As they say...God is easy to please (as a child that pleases Him) yet hard to satisfy. So while we may unwittingly please God (as the good Samaritan) we can never satisfy God unless we are walking in Christ.
To whom much is given more is required.
As Christians we have no choice but to be entirely obedient. We will be held more accountable since the Holy Spirit has made us both aware and has given us the potential to fully please (be obedient to) God.
Those who overcome in Christ will not be merely saved but will abide with God forever basking in His presence. Without holiness none shall SEE the Lord. Christians are in training to become the bride of Christ. We are being molded into the full image and to the full stature of Christ. This is a high calling indeed.
This just sparked a thought which might need a little reconciling....
According to John, if we continue in sin we have not seen Him.... so.... where in the process of salvation is the 'seeing' to which he refers?
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
.
Hi Mark,
Further to your post which I quoted in my #42, here are two more scriptures.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
1 Samuel 25:29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with
According to John, if we continue in sin we have not seen Him.... so.... where in the process of salvation is the 'seeing' to which he refers?
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
.
Hi Mark,
Further to your post which I quoted in my #42, here are two more scriptures.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
1 Samuel 25:29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with
the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, [as out] of the middle of a sling.
The proof of having seen the Lord is a deep holiness in that person. The face of Moses shone after his encounter with God...seeing the Lord in the Spirit causes light to enter into our hearts.
So this is my take on it...If a person has never ceased from sin (for any significant length of time) then he surely has never yet seen the Lord.
Hi Episkopos,
Yeah, I agree. We need a good long glimpse of Him to really begin to understand how awesome He is, and to be changed by that glimpse. Seeing Him is different from simply meditating on His word, or knowing about His teaching.
Sooo, it seems the 'see'ing the Lord from Heb 12 which you quoted, is about seeing Him visibly with the eyes of our new bodies?
Yeah, I agree. We need a good long glimpse of Him to really begin to understand how awesome He is, and to be changed by that glimpse. Seeing Him is different from simply meditating on His word, or knowing about His teaching.
Sooo, it seems the 'see'ing the Lord from Heb 12 which you quoted, is about seeing Him visibly with the eyes of our new bodies?
Actually we can see Him in Zion where He presently is. We don't see Him when we walk in the Spirit...we feel His presence. But we can be taken to Zion in the Spirit so that we see Him the same way we find ourselves in the throne room of God...we are transported. It is like a vision...but while fully awake.
justaname
Disciple of Jesus Christ
- Mar 14, 2011
- 2,348
- 149
- 63
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
..............someone has been watching the Matrix
While the Matrix is a good story that points to a heavenly reality...one should be careful not to miss the truth of this to make the story more important than the message it contains.
Like if you take any bible story and make a cartoon out of it...then many will say...that's just a cartoon story.
The heavenly dwelling of Jesus Christ IS in Zion at this time. We can abide with Him there right now....for in the Father's house there are many abodes and Jesus has made a place for us that are alive in the Spirit.
There are some good parallels in the Matrix movie that correspond to the truth in Christ. Zion is indeed the refuge of the saints. Those who live in Zion are the future bride of Christ. We need to be disconnected from this present life force through the sin nature...and be connected or grafted into the life that is in Jesus Christ.
There is a further disconnection that takes place in order that we become gathered with the brethren in Christ. So there are actually 2 disconnections and re-connections to be made for a full potential in Christ. We need to come out of the carnal nature and the human systems that limit men to what men can do in order to become the actual ECCLESIA (called out ones) of God.
What was it like?
How does a person come out of the human system completely? Could you describe further what you mean by this?
Thanks
man has taken what God has made so simple even a child can believe...
-What saves us: Jesus death and resurrection
-How do we receive this salvation: Faith
-What is Faith: repenting, submitting, dieing to self, producing good fruits, trusting God alone, following Gods commands, to love God with all my heart and mind, and love my neighbor as I love myself.
If you are not producing these fruits, you are without faith, and Jesus will say "I never knew you"
-What saves us: Jesus death and resurrection
-How do we receive this salvation: Faith
-What is Faith: repenting, submitting, dieing to self, producing good fruits, trusting God alone, following Gods commands, to love God with all my heart and mind, and love my neighbor as I love myself.
If you are not producing these fruits, you are without faith, and Jesus will say "I never knew you"
We cannot run away from all human systems in this world. That has already been tried..besides we are still to be IN the world. But we are not to be OF the world. So we must come out of human institutions in regards ourselves (in our allegiances) and the community of faith. We are separated unto God in Christ. We are to walk at a much higher level than can be represented by any earthly organization. If we are represented by a worldly organization it shows that our walk in earthy and not spiritual.
So the Ecclesia of God does not register with any government or worldly institution. it does not register a name or corporation. It does not use mammon to honour it's ministers (no salaries). We are to drink from the source and become a light to the world.
I understand what you are saying. Thanks for the clarification.
What was you experience like? What did you see in your vision? Did it have any similarities as Jonn wrote about in The Revelation?
Similar threads
