Why you cant lose your salvation.

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Stan

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Let me correct you Kidron. The reason people do NOT accept OSAS, is because the BIBLE doesn't teach it. Pure and simple. The Bible DOES teach that you can walk away, fall away and back away. Just as we decided to walk into Jesus when we REALLY confessed Him.. Making a judgmental (very Calvinistic by the way) call on whether people are saved or NOT is ONLY for God to do, NOT you or any other believer in OSAS. I suggest you read the only parable Jesus ever explained in Luke 8:11-15 to see that believers CAN fall away. If Jesus said it happens, then I guess it does. If Luke said it happens in Hebrews 6 then I guess it does.
 
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Episkopos

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Let me correct you Kidron. The reason people do NOT accept OSAS, is because the BIBLE doesn't teach it. Pure and simple. The Bible DOES teach that you can walk away, fall away and back away. Just as we decided to walk into Jesus when we REALLY confessed Him.. Making a judgmental (very Calvinistic by the way) call on whether people are saved or NOT is ONLY for God to do, NOT you or any other believer in OSAS. I suggest you read the only parable Jesus ever explained in Luke 8:11-15 to see that believers CAN fall away. If Jesus said it happens, then I guess it does. If Luke said it happens in Hebrews 6 then I guess it does.

Amen! good post.
 

Foreigner

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Let me correct you Kidron. The reason people do NOT accept OSAS, is because the BIBLE doesn't teach it. Pure and simple. The Bible DOES teach that you can walk away, fall away and back away. Just as we decided to walk into Jesus when we REALLY confessed Him.. Making a judgmental (very Calvinistic by the way) call on whether people are saved or NOT is ONLY for God to do, NOT you or any other believer in OSAS. I suggest you read the only parable Jesus ever explained in Luke 8:11-15 to see that believers CAN fall away. If Jesus said it happens, then I guess it does. If Luke said it happens in Hebrews 6 then I guess it does.

-- There it is.
 

Episkopos

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For the record....

There is no such thing as a privetely owned eternal salvation.

think about it...

We may be able to own cars and houses in this life...men love to increase what they have...but in the kingdom it is what you lose that counts.
 

Kidron

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Let me correct you Kidron. The reason people do NOT accept OSAS, is because the BIBLE doesn't teach it. Pure and simple.


The bible absolutely teaches that you cant lose your salvation.
You cant lose it.....= impossible.

1st John 5:11.... It teaches that Jesus IS eternal life..........HE IS......and if you have him, you have "eternal life".
It teaches that this is a GIFT........and your bible says that the "gifts of God are without repentance", which means he will
never take it back, for any reason....("without repentance")
But whats more, is that we are Holy Spirit SEALED unto the day of redemption....Ephesians 4:30, and that day is beyond your death.
So that means that beyond what you can do on earth, your salvation is still sealed, and you cant unseal it.
And of course you already know you cant be unborn again.....

And you say.........."but what if you walk away from the faith".......blah, blah, blah..
Well, u are still IN CHRIST, as God put you there, you didnt .
And you say, "well, then, i cant go to hell no matter what".
Thats exactly correct, as you have no power to undo your new birth, as a birth cant be undone by a deed.
Do you understand this, Stan?

Need an example?

here is a harsh one, but maybe it will cut through your theological sludge.
worth a shot.

Go and shoot your mother to death.
Then ask yourself, "did i nullify my BIRTH", by this deed?
Did you?
After you shot her, are you still her son?
are you still BORN?
See it yet?

Same with your new birth in Christ.
U can not undo it, by a deed, by a sin, by "walking away".... anymore then you can undo your natural birth by a deed, by a sin, by "walking away"..

Try to get that READER.....and you will have begun a brand new revelation that you should have had the first year you were saved.
(You are a bit behind, but, today is a new day, Stan.)



K
 

Faithful

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Hi Stan,

Let me correct you Kidron. The reason people do NOT accept OSAS, is because the BIBLE doesn't teach it. Pure and simple. The Bible DOES teach that you can walk away, fall away and back away. Just as we decided to walk into Jesus when we REALLY confessed Him.. Making a judgmental (very Calvinistic by the way) call on whether people are saved or NOT is ONLY for God to do, NOT you or any other believer in OSAS. I suggest you read the only parable Jesus ever explained in Luke 8:11-15 to see that believers CAN fall away. If Jesus said it happens, then I guess it does. If Luke said it happens in Hebrews 6 then I guess it does.

Christ taught that none shall be lost but the one which was meant to be lost. The seeds which is the word of God the truth about Jesus Christ is dependant on the recipients heart. We see those who bear fruit produce more fruit and they do not fall away.
But that means they listen t the Holy Spirit and obey the Holy Spirit and these are they who walk not according to the flesh but are obedient to the truth. Acts 10 shows Peter preaching the good news and many followers being added where the Holy Spirit comes down on them as they accept the truth about Christ.

Those born of Spirit and Truth have power over all the enemy. If we fail it is because we have not loved and embraced the truth with a good heart. The parable of the 10 vigins show that all had received the truth about Jesus Christ and was waiting for his return. 5 tended their lamps and bought more oil trimming the old away as they replenished and the others never moved on from the initial belief and bought oil for their lamps and trimmed their wicks.

We need to remain in the Spirit being guided and taught by him whilst trusting our heavenly Father.
We cannot do it by the arm of flesh we need the Spirit to guide us into all truth.
So trust in what God has said through Christ is as paramount today as ever. Because Christ spoke Gods words and he said none the Father gives to him will be lost.

It is how we tend our lamps which decides the final outcome.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Kidron,

Your examples of how a person can commit serious sins, but cannot be rejected by God on the final day, are only believable, if you also introduce to your doctrine, the need for repentance by Christians, and the understanding that the Holy Spirit enables us to not sin.

The fact is, particularly the people of God - 'sealed' with 'circumcision in the flesh' - who sinned against Him, were destroyed.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul was writing to Christians. He is saying the same choice we faced when we first came to Jesus Christ - between death and life - exists every time we contemplate sinning. The death of Jesus Christ - if we embrace it - frees us to not sin.

Every time you justify OSAS by using an example of how sin cannot interfere with your ultimate salvation, you are in error.

In many places the Bible does not support any such doctrine. In other words, God doesn't believe your doctrine.


It is how we tend our lamps which decides the final outcome.

Yes!

Or, it is how we let the husbandman (our Father in heaven) prune us - John 15:1, 2 - which indicates our heart's true inclination.

Either way, there is personal responsibility on our part, because God's part leaves us without excuse.
 
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Episkopos

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[size="+1"]"The safest way to avoid hypocrisy is simple; eliminate the standards one might have trouble keeping" - R Scott Richards[/size]
 

dragonfly

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"The safest way to avoid hypocrisy is simple; eliminate the standards one might have trouble keeping" - R Scott Richards

Is this a reference to Kidron's deletion of the need to overcome sin to qualify for eternal life?
 

Episkopos

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Is this a reference to Kidron's deletion of the need to overcome sin to qualify for eternal life?

If you bring the standard low enough to satisfy the needs of the natural man you get what Kidron is proposing...
 

Stan

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Hi Stan,



Christ taught that none shall be lost but the one which was meant to be lost. The seeds which is the word of God the truth about Jesus Christ is dependant on the recipients heart. We see those who bear fruit produce more fruit and they do not fall away.
But that means they listen t the Holy Spirit and obey the Holy Spirit and these are they who walk not according to the flesh but are obedient to the truth. Acts 10 shows Peter preaching the good news and many followers being added where the Holy Spirit comes down on them as they accept the truth about Christ.

Those born of Spirit and Truth have power over all the enemy. If we fail it is because we have not loved and embraced the truth with a good heart. The parable of the 10 vigins show that all had received the truth about Jesus Christ and was waiting for his return. 5 tended their lamps and bought more oil trimming the old away as they replenished and the others never moved on from the initial belief and bought oil for their lamps and trimmed their wicks.

We need to remain in the Spirit being guided and taught by him whilst trusting our heavenly Father.
We cannot do it by the arm of flesh we need the Spirit to guide us into all truth.
So trust in what God has said through Christ is as paramount today as ever. Because Christ spoke Gods words and he said none the Father gives to him will be lost.

It is how we tend our lamps which decides the final outcome.

Sorry I didn't see an actual statement for or against my post here. Jesus chose Judas because He and the Father knew Judas would betray them. Judas was part of God's plan and although God does know who will fall away, they are not chosen to do so. Judas was chosen just like the other eleven were, by Jesus and God's foreknowledge.

Yes the virgins are a good example of those that ARE to be the bride of Christ but do NOT maintain their readiness and attention to their responsibilities.

Jesus thanked the Father for His Apostles that had remained committed to Him. Even Peter. This is not an analogy for ALL who confess Christ as Saviour.


You messed up the format of your response K but to deal with just one item you mentioned, the word impossible in Heb 6 is in relation to renewing themselves to repentance. Do me a favour, get someone who understands English, and ask that person what the word 'impossible' relates to in this passage. Any person who understand grammar will know the proper structure of this passage. You my friend are really into the deep end of eisegesis.
 

Kidron

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Hi Kidron,

If you want credibility with God (let alone other believers) then you have to restrict yourself to the claims of His word - and not add anything...




Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is, of course, a way to deal with sins (should one sin) after one begins to be saved, but it is not through the assumption that one is already forgiven. The Atonement has already taken place, but until by the Spirit its benefits are again applied to my need for cleansing again, I am not forgiven, yet.
Hi Kidron,
If you want credibility with God (let alone other believers) then you have to restrict yourself to the claims of His word - and not add anything...
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is, of course, a way to deal with sins (should one sin) after one begins to be saved, but it is not through the assumption that one is already forgiven. The Atonement has already taken place, but until by the Spirit its benefits are again applied to my need for cleansing again, I am not forgiven, yet.


Dfly.,


when you get time., go to the book of Romans.
Read chapter 4
Eventually you are going to arrive at verse....3, where you will find that God gave Abraham "righteousness" for faith.

you will arrive at verse 5, where you are told that the faith of the "ungody" is counted, is accepted and righteousness is exchanged.
Read it.

you will arrive at verse 8, where you will be amazed to learn that >>even if you sin God does not hold it against you.<<
be sure you read Romans 4:8 and then Romans 4:7 and then verse 4:6,.....many many times until you believe it.
If you can ever GET THIS, you will escape the trap of legalism.
Read the verses.

Go then to 4:22...

then to verse 4:24
then go to Romans 3:28 and then 5:1.

These verses lay the foundation for the Doctrine of Justification by Faith according to the imputed righteousness of God as given by Paul.
This is Pauline theology that you must believer so that you can understand what salvation actually IS and DOES and WHY.

Its all very simple.
You give God faith, and he gives you HIS righteousness.
You give God faith, and he no longer charges your sins against you.
Once you understand this, you will be light years ahead of the majority of believers who are stuck in the law and fallen from Grace....(Galatians 5:4)



K
 

dragonfly

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Hi Kidron,

For sure there are believers stuck in legalism, but your construction of an entire doctrine from one chapter of scripture is like a building which is unsafe for human habitation. There is far more to living as a Christian than any of your posts declare.

If you don't know this by now, it's time you checked out the rest of the Bible, and revised your understanding of Romans 4 accordingly.


Blessings.
 

Episkopos

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Dfly.,


when you get time., go to the book of Romans.
Read chapter 4
Eventually you are going to arrive at verse....3, where you will find that God gave Abraham "righteousness" for faith.

you will arrive at verse 5, where you are told that the faith of the "ungody" is counted, is accepted and righteousness is exchanged.
Read it.

you will arrive at verse 8, where you will be amazed to learn that >>even if you sin God does not hold it against you.<<
be sure you read Romans 4:8 and then Romans 4:7 and then verse 4:6,.....many many times until you believe it.
If you can ever GET THIS, you will escape the trap of legalism.
Read the verses.

Go then to 4:22...

then to verse 4:24
then go to Romans 3:28 and then 5:1.

These verses lay the foundation for the Doctrine of Justification by Faith according to the imputed righteousness of God as given by Paul.
This is Pauline theology that you must believer so that you can understand what salvation actually IS and DOES and WHY.

Its all very simple.
You give God faith, and he gives you HIS righteousness.
You give God faith, and he no longer charges your sins against you.
Once you understand this, you will be light years ahead of the majority of believers who are stuck in the law and fallen from Grace....(Galatians 5:4)



K

Paul was admonishing Gentile believers to not be swayed by Judaizers that claimed one had to be circumcised physically in order to have a place with Abraham. No one on this forum is saying that a physical circumcision is necessary for anything. The Galatians were being persueded to get physically circumcised...again no one is advocating this here...so why do you tilt at windmills???
 

Kidron

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Kidron kidron kidron !
Boy ! Catholics are not saved and can't be saved as long as they are with the Catholic Church ? is that true.


Ive never said that Catholics are not saved...

But, there is a situation that keeps a whole lot of them from being saved.
That situation is regarding...... "what they believe saves them".
So, this it the same for everyone, but with most Rcatholics, they put their trust in the Church, in Mary,
In Water Baptism, in dying in a state of Grace, in Confession, in the Eucharist .... while at the same time mentioning Christ right along with all that STUFF.
Here is the thing..

Once you say this................."Well, i know that Christ saved me..........BUT......"
Once that happens, there is a real issue, and the issue is that "but"......
Because this person has fallen from Grace.....Galatians 5:4 and 2:21 and is now under the works situation to stay saved and to be saved.
And the truth is, most Catholics never made it to faith, they only made it to the "but" or the WORKS to begin with.


A saved person is absolutely trusting in the death and resurrection of Christ to redeem them., while the devout and the religious are playing a deceitful game of
semantics about "works, and living it, and dying in a state of grace, and confessing every sin"......

Nothing saves you but what Christ did for you, and as soon as you add any type of works you do, deeds you do, because you think this is what you have to do
to help Christ out, then you are not truly trusting Christ alone and you cant be saved that way.

Christ said ............."All that come unto ME".
And THAT is how its done, and you add nothing to that, before, during, or after.



K

It is imperative that we 'serve the living God'. That is the present continuous part of 'being saved'. That done


Dfly,

Typical of a legalist who thinks they are talking about grace, you are instead substituting the free gift of Salvation for your idea of
WORKS to keep it.

You are describing discipleship WORKS that occur AFTER you are saved.
While the fact of salvation , the gift of salvation, has nothing to do with that.
You dont walk in the steps of Christ to BECOME SAVED, and so, you dont walk in the steps of Christ to STAY SAVED.
Your "walk", your "deeds" and your "lifestyle", have nothing to do with it before or after.
You cant be good enough to save yourself nor will you ever be good enough to keep yourself saved.
Thats the bottom line.
So stop trying to make salvation ALL ABOUT YOU, and instead GIVE CHRIST ALL THE CREDIT.
OK?
You dishonor the Cross when all you can endlessly talk about is YOUR DEEDS and YOUR WORKS and WHAT YOU DO TO STAY SAVED
Stop doing that READER, and start giving CHRIST all the CREDIT for what he did FOR YOU.
OK?
THX

You Dfly, just like every other legalist have this incredibly deep mindset that will not allow the Gift of Salvation
to be a FREE gift in your theology.
You just have to add WORKS to it.
You will argue endlessly about............."well, i know its FREE, BUT WE MUST DO LATER".
Sorry, no.
You do not work for a FREE GIFT, and you do not have to KEEP a free gift.
There are no CONDITIONS to a free gift.
Cant you understand this?
Im certain you have read John 3:16.
All God requires to save you is FAITH, and once he saves you then you are saved.
You cant undo it, as it was not you who did it.
You cannot lose the Holy Spirit who has been sealed in you and you cannot fall out of your "in Christ" position.
And you cant be unborn again.



K
 

Stan

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OK Kidron,

First, no one comes to Christ except the Father draws Him. We don't come of our own volition, but we do respond of it.

Second, Heb 6:4-6 shows quite clearly we can fall away, as does Heb 10:38-39.

Maybe you could be less verbose and more accurate with what the Bible actually does say.
 

Kidron

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You are saying that you are going to Heaven = salvation ?

I have never met a person in my life that thinks their works get them into Heaven, never ! but i have come across many people ranting about the RCC that they do believe in works salvation, fact is the RCC do not and never have.

You must repent of all your sin. Jesus loves the sinner but hates the sin. we should have a back bone and seek Spiritual guidance to help us on the right path.

The Cross is nothing at all. it's Christ crucified. i see people wearing a cross and this means noting at all ? it's when Jesus is on the Cross that it is of significance.
You are saying that you are going to Heaven = salvation ?

Heaven, is not salvation..
Its a destination for the redeemed.
Salvation, is a whole lot of things, including eternal redemption.

I have never met a person in my life that thinks their works get them into Heaven, never ! but i have come across many people ranting about the RCC that they do believe in works salvation, fact is the RCC do not and never have.

And you have never met a RCatholic in you life who believes that if they dont DO Certain THINGS, they will end up LOST
Including, "dying in a state of grace", "confession", "communion", ...= THINGS YOU DO TO STAY SAVED = WORKS .

Here, i'll prove it to you.
Renounce the Catholic Church, stop taking communion, do not die in a state of grace,.... end Lent, end Ash Wed, and never confess again your sins to a priest.
Now are YOU still saved Oh YE Catholic?
Not in YOUR head and not according to stated RC-Theology., so dont even try to kid me.
Dont even try it.

So, you Mr RBurger dont even realize that all those things are WORKS and are meaningless regarding Salvation of the SOUL, and that is why you cant HEAR ME.



K

You need to remember once you are saved, that is only the beginning of your journey with God through Christ. !


And you need to remember that Salvation is not the Journey, its the ticket that starts the process.
And you dont buy the ticket, and you dont earn it, and you dont keep it as it was not you up on the cross bleeding out for your ticket..
Your ticket is a GIFT.
Its FREE.
And following this inputed FREE gift, this FREE sealed righteousness, this FREE eternal Sonship standing that Jesus died to give to you for FREE, you are to walk the walk.
Not to be saved, but because you ARE.



K
 

dragonfly

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And you need to remember that Salvation is not the Journey, its the ticket that starts the process.
And you dont buy the ticket, and you dont earn it, and you dont keep it as it was not you up on the cross bleeding out for your ticket..

Your ticket is a GIFT.
Its FREE.
And following this inputed FREE gift, this FREE sealed righteousness, this FREE eternal Sonship standing that Jesus died to give to you for FREE, you are to walk the walk.
Not to be saved, but because you ARE.


But to get this ticket you have to show a change of heart towards sin, and to keep this ticket you have to demonstrate the change of heart towards sin, or God, who sees everything that goes on in your heart - as well as what proceeds from it in actions - has a right to judge you for your disobedience.

Matthew 15 - Jesus speaking -
7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draws nigh to me with their mouth, and honours me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said to him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
 

Axehead

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People give gifts back all the time. They give gifts back for many reasons and sometimes it is because something happened between them and their friend and now they are hurt and bitter. Or, they trash a gift that was given to them because they were offended and don't want the gift anymore because it reminds them of the one that offended them. They hate their friend now so much and love themselves so much that they cannot even face their friend so they just ignore them and trash the gift.

Luke 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me.

Axehead