Why?

[aspen]

The Greek word pas is used in the text, meaning every, everyone, all, the whole. I can find no premise in the scriptures discussed to indicate or support your belief that it happens out of abject defeat or horror for some and is different for others. As far as an adverb goes, can you point out the adverb your referring to?

It is interesting to me that Lewis had such a hard time with the doctrine of Hell that the best way he could deal with it was to see it as past tense....part of a latter age, which was no longer relevant.....

 

[Lively Stone]

I guess one of the problems is we do not agree on when this takes place. The other problems are probably associated with misunderstanding what alam, olam, aion and aionios mean and scriptures that refer to the reconciliation of all, the restoration of all things, the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, Jesus drawing all men to Himself, Jesus the Savior of all mankind, a heavenly Father who loves His enemies, and the just punishment for sin being death and not endless torment.

I know I had this same struggle with UR because of my misconceptions about hell being a place of endless torment it simply doesn't jive with Father's character or the many scriptures that indicate UR. Jesus was sent to save the world, all of mankind and rescue all creation and restore all things, I believe He is successful and He accomplishes what He was sent to do.

I am not about to argue about the cult of Universal Reconciliation with you. Most Christian boards will not allow debates on it and I agree with them.

Bottom line, those who have fallen for the UR line have a basic problem with their acceptance of who God is, and their understanding of His character. Until that is resolved there will always be disunity between them and all other believers---which says a lot about how the devil loves to divide and conquer by separating certain sheep from the herd.

 

[aspen]

Just imagine a God-hater finding himself standing in front of the Great White Throne. On his knees, speechless! No fear?

Do you see an adverb such as 'joyfully' describing the final admission on the lips of one forced to declare Jesus King of kings and Lord of lords, knowing that his name is not found in the book of Life and that he has a place in the Lake of Fire?

Hmm..

I can't even image a child who has been terribly abused by his parents and who regularly acts out his anger on everyone including them, hating his parents. We are mammals!

He may hate his parents deeply, but even deeper there are feelings of hurt, abandonment and fear. I expect the same at the Judgement.

 

[Lively Stone]

Hmm..

I can't even image a child who has been terribly abused by his parents and who regularly acts out his anger on everyone including them, hating his parents. We are mammals!

He may hate his parents deeply, but even deeper there are feelings of hurt, abandonment and fear. I expect the same at the Judgement.

Why? God is not everyone's Father. Those who do not receive Christ have another father who is an abuser.

Romans 8:15
So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:5
God sent him to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law, so that he could adopt us as his very own children.

Ephesians 1:5
God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

 

[jiggyfly]

I am not about to argue about the cult of Universal Reconciliation with you. Most Christian boards will not allow debates on it and I agree with them.

Bottom line, those who have fallen for the UR line have a basic problem with their acceptance of who God is, and their understanding of His character. Until that is resolved there will always be disunity between them and all other believers---which says a lot about how the devil loves to divide and conquer by separating certain sheep from the herd.

What is your idea of the just punishment for sin?

Why? God is not everyone's Father. Those who do not receive Christ have another father who is an abuser.

Romans 8:15
So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:5
God sent him to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law, so that he could adopt us as his very own children.

Ephesians 1:5
God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

But as Paul declared.
19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
21 This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body. As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.
Col 1:19-22 (NLT)

 

[Lively Stone]

What is your idea of the just punishment for sin?

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.


Without the applicaton of blood to our sin, we will suffer the punishment of Hellfire. It is our sin that will send us there.

 

[jiggyfly]

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.


Without the applicaton of blood to our sin, we will suffer the punishment of Hellfire. It is our sin that will send us there.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 The punishment for sin is death not endless torment, if you believe that sin is what sends people to hell then I take it you don't believe that Jesus took away the sin of the world.

 

[aspen]

Why? God is not everyone's Father. Those who do not receive Christ have another father who is an abuser.

Romans 8:15
So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:5
God sent him to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law, so that he could adopt us as his very own children.

Ephesians 1:5
God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

So are you saying that the Devil created some people and God created others? Or could it be possible that when Jesus referred to the Devil as the Father of the Pharisees, He may have simply been making a dramatic point?

Jesus also told Peter 'get behind me Satan!' Was Peter really the Devil, or was Jesus just making a dramatic point?

 

[Lively Stone]

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 The punishment for sin is death not endless torment, if you believe that sin is what sends people to hell then I take it you don't believe that Jesus took away the sin of the world.

Hellfire is a continuous state of spiritual death. Sin is exactly what sends people to hellfire. Jesus tool care of our sin on the cross, but those who reject that will have to carry their own sin. Such a waste, isn't it? That is why we are to procalim the truth about Jesus' sacrifice!

What is it you profess to the lost if not the Gospel message of a way out of condemnation and a way to God?

 

[jiggyfly]

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col.1:16

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11

 

[Lively Stone]

So are you saying that the Devil created some people and God created others? Or could it be possible that when Jesus referred to the Devil as the Father of the Pharisees, He may have simply been making a dramatic point?

Jesus also told Peter 'get behind me Satan!' Was Peter really the Devil, or was Jesus just making a dramatic point?

I just don't believe this.

Those who do not know the Father through Jeuss Christ have another father, the father of lies!


John 8:44 (NLT)

[sup]44[/sup] For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hellfire is a continuous state of spiritual death. Sin is exactly what sends people to hellfire. Jesus tool care of our sin on the cross, but those who reject that will have to carry their own sin. Such a waste, isn't it? That is why we are to procalim the truth about Jesus' sacrifice!

What is it you profess to the lost if not the Gospel message of a way out of condemnation and a way to God?

So you deny that God reconciled all things back to Himself through Jesus Christ's work at the cross?

 

[aspen]

I just don't believe this.

Those who do not know the Father through Jeuss Christ have another father, the father of lies!


John 8:44 (NLT)

[sup]44[/sup] For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Fair enough.

I could not do my job if I believed that my client may have been created for Hell.

In fact, I could not be a Christian if I didn't believe Jesus died for everyone and like the Good Shepherd ran after everyone of his sheep.

 

[Lively Stone]

So you deny that God reconciled all things back to Himself through Jesus Christ's work at the cross?

I believe what the bible says. Do you? God reconciled or brought things into harmony by Christ's atoning blood. If one desires to be reconciled, or to be in harmony with Him, they are to simply receive it. We are all called to be reconciled to God.

Romans 5:8-10
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hellfire is a continuous state of spiritual death. Sin is exactly what sends people to hellfire. Jesus tool care of our sin on the cross, but those who reject that will have to carry their own sin. Such a waste, isn't it? That is why we are to procalim the truth about Jesus' sacrifice!

What is it you profess to the lost if not the Gospel message of a way out of condemnation and a way to God?

Hell fire is referring to the fires of Gehenna the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, criminals many times were stoned and thrown onto Gehenna and died a horrible death, the fires were to kill the disease and stifle/control the stench.

Fire and brimstone spoken of in Revelation is something many misunderstand do to false teaching.
The Greek word theion translated as brimstone means 1) brimstone
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Brimstone is actually sulfur and is used throughout scripture as a means to cleanse, purify and heal.

 

[Lively Stone]

Fair enough.

I could not do my job if I believed that my client may have been created for Hell.

In fact, I could not be a Christian if I didn't believe Jesus died for everyone and like the Good Shepherd ran after everyone of his sheep.

Jesus did die for everyone, but not everyone is His sheep. One of the things that keeps infusing me with life as a believer is that there are millions out there who are going to Hellfire and I have the key for them to heaven---the message that God is so in love with them that He has made a way for them to know Him--the door is Jesus.

Hell fire is referring to the fires of Gehenna the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, criminals many times were stoned and thrown onto Gehenna and died a horrible death, the fires were to kill the disease and stifle/control the stench.

Fire and brimstone spoken of in Revelation is something many misunderstand do to false teaching.
The Greek word theion translated as brimstone means 1) brimstone
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Brimstone is actually sulfur and is used throughout scripture as a means to cleanse, purify and heal.

Hellfire, the Lake of Fire is likened to Gehenna.

Burning brimstone rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain. It wasn't intended to heal and purify. It was the judgment of God and we are reminded of just such a judgment on those who reject Him.

 

[jiggyfly]

I believe what the bible says. Do you? God reconciled or brought things into harmony by Christ's atoning blood. If one desires to be reconciled, or to be in harmony with Him, they are to simply receive it. We are all called to be reconciled to God.

Romans 5:8-10
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Yes indeed and as Paul said in Colossians God reconciled all things to Himself, notice the past tense. God made peace with everything in heaven and earth through/by Christ cross again past tense, He is at peace with all things but many still struggle with God. Many confuse the ages and dispensations of God's glorious plan of God all and in all.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor 15:20-28 (KJV)

Jesus did die for everyone, but not everyone is His sheep. One of the things that keeps infusing me with life as a believer is that there are millions out there who are going to Hellfire and I have the key for them to heaven---the message that God is so in love with them that He has made a way for them to know Him--the door is Jesus.



Hellfire, the Lake of Fire is likened to Gehenna.

Burning brimstone rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain. It wasn't intended to heal and purify. It was the judgment of God and we are reminded of just such a judgment on those who reject Him.

The scriptures state that hell is cast into the lake of fire so hell and the lake of fire cannot be the same thing.
You should look into the Greek text, KJV is a errant translation as are many of the English version that follow. If you don't have the resources to examine the Greek text try using a literal translation such as Young's, the Concordant, and Rotherham's emphasized translations they are much more accurate.

 

[Lively Stone]

Yes, Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same things., which is why I try my best to refer to the place of Judgment as the Lake of Fire. Hell is the term we use generally referring to the grave, Hades, Sheol, etc. It is a literal place, however, where the unsaved dead await their own resurrection to judgment. The entire place will be cast into the Lake of Fire.


Revelation 20:14 (NKJV)
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[jiggyfly]

So do you believe in annihilation or endless torment?

 

[aspen]

well, lively...I am glad we can talk about differences as well as similarities. It is important to be able to talk without getting angry. I am not comfortable with tearing down anyone's faith who simply disagrees with me. Thanks for talking