Why?

[jiggyfly]

well, lively...I am glad we can talk about differences as well as similarities. It is important to be able to talk without getting angry. I am not comfortable with tearing down anyone's faith who simply disagrees with me. Thanks for talking

Same here.

 

[Lively Stone]

well, lively...I am glad we can talk about differences as well as similarities. It is important to be able to talk without getting angry. I am not comfortable with tearing down anyone's faith who simply disagrees with me. Thanks for talking

You are very welcome! :wub:

 

[Justinian 1]

You are very welcome! :wub:

Creepy....

 

[Lively Stone]

Creepy....

Likewise.

 

[aspen]

jiggy - you are one of my favorite people who post here. I always learn from you.

 

[jiggyfly]

jiggy - you are one of my favorite people who post here. I always learn from you.

Like wise Aspen, and I really enjoy the thought provoking post of yours and some others here. God has used them to do a work in me and adjust my thinking many times.

 

[Angelina]

Hmmm.... :huh:

Hell fire is referring to the fires of Gehenna the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, criminals many times were stoned and thrown onto Gehenna and died a horrible death, the fires were to kill the disease and stifle/control the stench.

Fire and brimstone spoken of in Revelation is something many misunderstand do to false teaching.
The Greek word theion translated as brimstone means 1) brimstone
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Brimstone is actually sulfur and is used throughout scripture as a means to cleanse, purify and heal.

This is what the JWs believe...

“Gehenna” appears in the Greek Scriptures twelve times (Matt.5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). Not one of these passages has reference to the so-called “final state.” The Lord explicitly identifies Gehenna with Isaiah 66:23,24 by speaking of it as the place of “unextinguished fire, where their worm is not deceasing[3] and the fire is not going out” (Mark 9:46). All whose bodies are destroyed in Gehenna will be raised to be judged at the great white throne, and go into the lake of fire. Gehenna is the capital punishment of the kingdom, without burial.

http://www.concordan...ennaOfFire.html

Gehenna is Hades/ Hell and the bible says that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire...
:
Revelation 20
[sup]13 [/sup]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [sup]14[/sup]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Be Blessed!!!

 

[aspen]

Hmmm.... :huh:

This is what the JWs believe...

http://www.concordan...ennaOfFire.html

Gehenna is Hades/ Hell and the bible says that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire...
:
Revelation 20
[sup]13 [/sup]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [sup]14[/sup]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Be Blessed!!!

I know this is not your point Angelina, but I still wanted to make a comment:

After watching a recent documentary about JWs, I can honestly say that according to their eschatology, it would be better to be annihilated sooner than later - there is never any security, even in paradise from being annihilated anyway, may as well get it over with!

First, the faithful JWs have to clean up the earth after Jesus the archangel destroys it - killing all nonJWs and beginning the 1000 year reign of Christ. while they are busy repopulating it - if they are not working hard enough, they can be annihilated at any moment. Later, they have to witness by going door to door to all the people who lived before Charles Russell and have now been reanimated to hear the JW gospel. After the 1000 years, faithful JWs can still be annihilated if the disobey Jesus or the 144,000.

Now, I wish Peggy was still posting here

 

[Angelina]

Hey aspen...just bringing it back on topic...

Hell fire is referring to the fires of Gehenna the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, criminals many times were stoned and thrown onto Gehenna and died a horrible death, the fires were to kill the disease and stifle/control the stench.

Fire and brimstone spoken of in Revelation is something many misunderstand do to false teaching.
The Greek word theion translated as brimstone means 1) brimstone
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Brimstone is actually sulfur and is used throughout scripture as a means to cleanse, purify and heal.

This is what the JWs believe...

“Gehenna” appears in the Greek Scriptures twelve times (Matt.5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). Not one of these passages has reference to the so-called “final state.” The Lord explicitly identifies Gehenna with Isaiah 66:23,24 by speaking of it as the place of “unextinguished fire, where their worm is not deceasing[3] and the fire is not going out” (Mark 9:46). All whose bodies are destroyed in Gehenna will be raised to be judged at the great white throne, and go into the lake of fire. Gehenna is the capital punishment of the kingdom, without burial.

http://www.concordan...ennaOfFire.html

Gehenna is Hades/ Hell and the bible says that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire...
:
Revelation 20
[sup]13 [/sup]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [sup]14[/sup]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Be Blessed!!!

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey aspen...just bringing it back on topic...




This is what the JWs believe...

I'm not sure what JW's believe but if this is the case does that make it false?

http://www.concordan...ennaOfFire.html

Gehenna is Hades/ Hell and the bible says that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire...
:
Revelation 20
[sup]13 [/sup]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. [sup]14[/sup]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Be Blessed!!!

I'm not sure what to say here, do you agree with the Concordant article Angelina?

 

[Angelina]

It's what they believe Jiggy
I agree with most of the article because it reflects my own understanding of Hades/Sheol/Hell, Judgment andThe Lake of fire

Shalom!!!

 

[jiggyfly]

It's what they believe Jiggy
I agree with most of the article because it reflects my own understanding of Hades/Sheol/Hell, Judgment andThe Lake of fire

Shalom!!!

Thanks for replying, have you read any of their other articles? Reason I am asking is because they believe in UR and I was surprised when I seen you posted their link.

 

[Stefcui]

The words God uses have always been a cause of dissention among Christians… Does God mean things literally or symbolically? Practically everything in the bible can be argued both ways. I am personally in agreement with the symbolic meaning of hell and the lake of fire. I still believe in hell, but not as a literal “place of torment”. This view I have is also shared by the JW’s, and many other sects, but the similarities stop short.

I think it is positively natural for Christians to understand a literal meaning in scripture. I did this for many years… until the penny dropped. Now I recognise that almost everything has both a literal and figurative meaning. There is literally a condition called hell. That does not mean we will find it with a GPS. This condition is marked by sadness, grief, pain and torment. In what sense is hell marked by these experiences? All things are relative… relative sadness, relative grief, relative pain, relative torment… The experiences, relative to God’s intention for us, are a painful torment.

All humans eventually come to recognise this in the resurrection. When God resurrects people, and rewards His sons and daughters, there will be many who do not and cannot share in this reward as a son and daughter. Their rejection of Christ will forever be their shame and torment. Their resurrected bodies will demonstrate this, forever, because our new bodies are a reward for God’s people, and not so much a reward for unbelievers. There is a qualitative difference in the bodies we will receive.

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? …God gives it a body as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body.” (1 Corinthians 15:35, 38)

In the 2[sup]nd[/sup] century AD there was a book circulated throughout most churches by a teacher named Hermas. This book was believed by many in the second century to be inspired, for it was found in the oldest bibles and canons. The book is known today as the Pastor of Hermas, or the Shepherd of Hermas.

http://christianbook..._filthy_and.htm

This very subject of the resurrection is brought up and explained in very clear detail in the Shepherd of Hermas. It is a wonderful book, and I thoroughly recommend it. I have printed the book so all of my kids could read it. I also have it available in PDF if anyone would like a copy to read for Ipad, etc. I look back at the writings of the very first Christians of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] and 3[sup]rd[/sup] centuries to understand the bible through their eyes (prior to the Roman Catholic institution). They were likely more correct in doctrine and understanding compared with our 2[sup]nd [/sup]hand church doctrines 2000 years later.

Note, the word Catholic means universal. All Christians were originally called Catholic. The Roman Catholic, on the other hand, was a sect developed in Rome which was imposed on all Christians by order of the Roman Emperor (see Edict of Thessalonica). Orthodox Christianity before this time has many wonderful truths to glean from.

God Bless
Steve

 

[aspen]

The Early Church and the Roman Catholic church shared the same beliefs.

Remember, Constantine, which many falsely believed started the Roman Catholic Church ruled from Constantinople, not Rome. The Eastern Orthodox church didn't schism from Rome for another 700 hundred years.

 

[Angelina]

Hi Jiggy!

no..I did not know that this writer believes in UR...I do agree with his understanding of scripture regarding sheol, judgment and the Lake of Fire. If he believes that people will get a second chance? no, I do not believe that there is an opportunity to turn to Jesus, If one finds themselves in Hades....2 Corinthians 5: 10, 11. but God is judge and we will soon find out the true meaning of the below scriptures ...

Revelation 20
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hi Steve!

Now I recognise that almost everything has both a literal and figurative meaning.

Probably because we are soul and also spirit. God is speaking to us on two levels of understanding...

I do not agree with the writers depiction of Jude 6

Jude adds that “messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, [Yahweh, cp Jude 5] has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day” (Jude 6). Since “chastening” kolasis speaks of discipline (i.e., “training”; literally, “hitting”) with a view to amendment, we may rejoice that for this they are being kept (cp Heb.12:7-11).

Jesus did not shed his blood for angels but for the lost and also those who believe in him by faith...

Hebrews 2
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Blessings!!!

 

[Stefcui]

The Early Church and the Roman Catholic church shared the same beliefs.

Sorry Aspen, but this is not true. You will, however, find some things that the early church and the Catholic church are in agreement in. The same is also true for JW's, Mormons, Arians, etc... Having some agreement does not validate our beliefs. Everyone can claim some level of orthodoxy. The Roman Catholics have many truths that were founded in the 1st to 3rd centuries. If this was not the case, I suppose that no one would be Roman Catholic. I personally believe they were ordained as an institution, as we spoke of at an earlier time. That does not mean that an ordained institution has God's absolute approval. The seven churches that are mentioned in Revelation are all ordained institutions by God. They are clearly not all approved by God, as most are called to repentance for their terrible sins. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants both fall into this category. Although they have been ordained, they still need to repent of their gross sins.

This is why the book of revelation was written to the seven churches (Rev 1:4). The future (revelation) church is the seven churches (Rev 2 & 3). This is why Paul wrote to seven different cities (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians). The seven cities are the seven churches. This is why there are seven epistles bearing individuals names (Timothy, Titus, Philemon, James, Peter, John and Jude). The individuals are the seven churches. The church, the entire church, is pictured as seven; just as the entire Israel was pictured as twelve. The entire church, including Roman Catholics, believe in (some) false doctrines (Nicolaitans); they follow (some) false prophecies (Jezebel); there are some who are worldly (Balaam), there are some who store up their wealth (synagogue of Satan), there are some who submit to government propaganda (Balak), etc. From these things every church is called to repent.

The book of revelation is a message to the entire church on our need for repentance at the time of Christ’s arrival, and what will happen to us if we do not repent. All of us want to think that our church is ordained; and it is! All of us want to think our church is pure; it certainly is not! The revelation was written so that we would see things from God’s eyes, only then can we have “eyes that see”.

God Bless
Steve

 

[Groundzero]

Why did God create nonChristians if, supposedly, He knew that they would go to hell for all eternity?

God did not create nonChristians. God created men with a free will.
God created man with a free will to choose who he wants to follow: God or Satan. It's all up to you. However, you have to accept the consequences.

The Early Church and the Roman Catholic church shared the same beliefs.

Which Early Church was that? If the answer is the apostles, then we have some serious issues. Some very big, serious issues.

 

[aspen]

Sorry Aspen, but this is not true. You will, however, find some things that the early church and the Catholic church are in agreement in. The same is also true for JW's, Mormons, Arians, etc... Having some agreement does not validate our beliefs. Everyone can claim some level of orthodoxy. The Roman Catholics have many truths that were founded in the 1st to 3rd centuries. If this was not the case, I suppose that no one would be Roman Catholic. I personally believe they were ordained as an institution, as we spoke of at an earlier time. That does not mean that an ordained institution has God's absolute approval. The seven churches that are mentioned in Revelation are all ordained institutions by God. They are clearly not all approved by God, as most are called to repentance for their terrible sins. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants both fall into this category. Although they have been ordained, they still need to repent of their gross sins.

This is why the book of revelation was written to the seven churches (Rev 1:4). The future (revelation) church is the seven churches (Rev 2 & 3). This is why Paul wrote to seven different cities (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians). The seven cities are the seven churches. This is why there are seven epistles bearing individuals names (Timothy, Titus, Philemon, James, Peter, John and Jude). The individuals are the seven churches. The church, the entire church, is pictured as seven; just as the entire Israel was pictured as twelve. The entire church, including Roman Catholics, believe in (some) false doctrines (Nicolaitans); they follow (some) false prophecies (Jezebel); there are some who are worldly (Balaam), there are some who store up their wealth (synagogue of Satan), there are some who submit to government propaganda (Balak), etc. From these things every church is called to repent.

The book of revelation is a message to the entire church on our need for repentance at the time of Christ’s arrival, and what will happen to us if we do not repent. All of us want to think that our church is ordained; and it is! All of us want to think our church is pure; it certainly is not! The revelation was written so that we would see things from God’s eyes, only then can we have “eyes that see”.

God Bless
Steve

Hi Steve.

Of course we are in disagreement over this issue. I especially disagree with your interpretation of Revelation. John of Patmos was writing about his world and hope for Jesus's return - it is inspired, but prone to over-interpretation.

One area that you are absolutely correct about is the need for the Roman Catholic Church's repentance. All of God's Churches are run by people and all people are flawed. The RC was at the height of corruption during the Medici Papacy dynasty and was in terrible need of reform. Unfortunately, instead of reform, Luther was excommunicated. Also, the result of the Protestant reformation was a church movement that threw out important doctrine and traditions and replaced it with their own doctrines and traditions! Thankfully, the Counter-Reformation did a lot to clean up the corruption of indulgences and other excesses and restated orthodox Christian beliefs and Tradition. Finally, recent Popes have come forth and apologized for wrongs committed by the Church. The interesting thing is that the same people who have criticized the RC for not apologizing, scoff at the long needed apology offered. I believe the RC has been headed in the right direction since the Counter-Reformation.

Peace

 

[Stefcui]

One area that you are absolutely correct about is the need for the Roman Catholic Church's repentance.

Good for you for this plea for transparency… This is true also of Protestant churches. Burning other Christians at the stake happened on both sides… Torturing other Christians happened on both sides… Even now we engage in “Holy Wars” when our political master asks for sacrifices.

Saying sorry for “wrongs committed by the church” is not even coming close to repentance. That is similar to their apologies over paedophiles while they still do everything in their power to conceal them. This is something I have had personal experience with. I know why people hate the Catholic Church; the church has provoked such sentiments. Unfortunately for all of God’s people the baby gets thrown out with the bath water… All churches get ear-marked with this hatred and scorn because of the sins of the few. Your token repentance sickens people. While you sit back and watch, you become an object of hatred, and the hatred is growing in the world day by day. Not because you are followers of Christ; but because they believe you are not!

Every Christian should be active in bringing their parent church to true repentance; or we share in their guilt. Our silence makes us an accomplice in their sins. Being “saved” makes us responsible to act as Christ would act. Christ made a whip for His temple! We cannot just sit on the fence and hope for the best… “He who is not with me is against me” (Mark 12:30). Does your faith gather or scatter? The fact is; it scatters. There are more people leaving the Catholic Church than ever…

It is a spiritual symptom of a fence sitter to adopt the spiritual opinion of someone else; so of course you disagree with my opinion of Revelation; your opinion was formed by someone else over 1000 years ago. Like the saying, "When I want to know your opinion, I will give it to you." From my experience all Catholics have a tendency to turn a blind eye to any and every crime; and this is what no doubt keeps them in darkness as Christians.

God Bless
Steve

 

[aspen]

Good for you for this plea for transparency… This is true also of Protestant churches. Burning other Christians at the stake happened on both sides… Torturing other Christians happened on both sides… Even now we engage in “Holy Wars” when our political master asks for sacrifices.

Saying sorry for “wrongs committed by the church” is not even coming close to repentance. That is similar to their apologies over paedophiles while they still do everything in their power to conceal them. This is something I have had personal experience with. I know why people hate the Catholic Church; the church has provoked such sentiments. Unfortunately for all of God’s people the baby gets thrown out with the bath water… All churches get ear-marked with this hatred and scorn because of the sins of the few. Your token repentance sickens people. While you sit back and watch, you become an object of hatred, and the hatred is growing in the world day by day. Not because you are followers of Christ; but because they believe you are not!

Every Christian should be active in bringing their parent church to true repentance; or we share in their guilt. Our silence makes us an accomplice in their sins. Being “saved” makes us responsible to act as Christ would act. Christ made a whip for His temple! We cannot just sit on the fence and hope for the best… “He who is not with me is against me” (Mark 12:30). Does your faith gather or scatter? The fact is; it scatters. There are more people leaving the Catholic Church than ever…

It is a spiritual symptom of a fence sitter to adopt the spiritual opinion of someone else; so of course you disagree with my opinion of Revelation; your opinion was formed by someone else over 1000 years ago. Like the saying, "When I want to know your opinion, I will give it to you." From my experience all Catholics have a tendency to turn a blind eye to any and every crime; and this is what no doubt keeps them in darkness as Christians.

God Bless
Steve

I am choosing to believe that you are lashing out because you have been hurt. The incidents of pedophilia and cover up in and by the RC has no defense, only shame and need for transparency and repentance.

If I am wrong and you actually view my faith and relationship with Christ with the damning contempt I see in your post, I am not sure we have much more to say to each other. I will be very disappointed if that is the case.

blessings