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will faith still be here?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, Dec 29, 2021.

  1. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    That's the way I read it also, anyone speaking in tongues is devil possessed
     
  2. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Some people are frightened by an experience that somebody else has. I don't personally believe that everyone should have a "Prayer Language" in Tongues.

    But I certainly believe in "Speaking in Tongues," since it is biblical. Pentecostals teach that to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit one must speak in tongues, or perhaps *should* speak in tongues. I think this hurts their cause. There is no such doctrine spelled out in the Bible.

    I don't speak in tongues and am Baptized in the Holy Spirit. I'm Baptized in the Holy Spirit because that is the Baptism Jesus came to bring all Christians--not just those who Speak in Tongues!

    I think someone added doctrine that isn't explicitly taught in the Scriptures. There is nothing in the Bible about a "Prayer Language in Tongues." On the contrary, the Bible teaches that the Spirit gives gifts *as He wills"--not as *we will!*

    If we confess Jesus as Lord and have received the New Birth we have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. We may not understand the working of the Holy Spirit completely, and thus seriously limit our Christian experience. But if we're truly walking in the Lord, we have the Spirit and are Baptized as such.

    In my experience, being raised Lutheran, my Christian experience was severely limited. I turned away from walking a life of righteousness in my adolescence, but came under severe guilt. So I returned to the Lord, and later read from the Scriptures, "I give my Spirit to those who obey Me." And I instantly realized the power of the Spirit was with me, if I continue to walk in righteousness.

    But to claim those who do have the gift of Speaking in Tongues are "Demon-possessed" exposes a real problem. Why not just think that people are producing gibberish? Why "demonic?" Sounds like an area that the Lord will have to deal with. The Spirit is with us not just to give some supernatural gifts, but also to build in us good character, producing the "fruits of the Spirit."
     
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  3. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I don't have enough numbers on my calendar to circle all of the dates! ;)
     
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  4. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Any way that some will denigrate those who challenge their fixed beliefs; will be grabbed and used to infer that everything they say is wrong.
    I made a guesstimate of 20 years between now and when Jesus will Return. How can that be construed as 'date setting'? We are given time periods for some of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
    Simple understanding shows that Jesus' Return surely isn't going to happen tomorrow!

    I stand by my assertion that Isaiah 66:21 and Revelation 14:1-7 are prophesying the same thing.
    Peoples opinion otherwise, need to be supported by proper analysis and provide a viable alternative.
     
  5. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    You need to stay away from guesstimates, unless you desire to be added to the likes of Harold Camping, Jack Van Impe, Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, William Miller, Rev Sun Myung Moon, Herbert W. Armstrong, Jerry Falwell, and the rest of the guesstimators
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
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  6. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    I can accept that. The problem wasn't mine, though, and you should owe up to it. You said, definitively, the Lord is coming back within 20 years. How would you know that? You don't.

    You said, " it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign." Again, I accept that you are modifying this to mean it is a "guess."
     
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  7. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    It looks to me that some of them have sucked you in with your AMill; it all ends when Jesus Returns, false belief.

    Here is the context of Isaiah 66:19, the 144,000:
    Isaiah 66:15-16 See; the Lord is coming in fire, His chariots like a whirlwind, bringing retribution in His furious anger. Ezekiel 20:46-47 & Isaiah 33:10-12

    The Lord will judge with fire and His sword will test mankind. Many will be slain by them. The Lords Day of vengeance. Isaiah 63:4-6 & Rev 14:17-19, +


    Isaiah 66:17 Those who practice magic arts, witchcraft and occult, those who eat defiled foods; they will all meet their end, for I know their deeds and thoughts.


    Isaiah 66:18 I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue, they will come to see My glory. His people, gathered into the Promised Land. Isaiah 35, Zechariah 8:7

    Isaiah 66:19 I shall put My seal on some of those survivors. I will send them out, they will proclaim My glory among all peoples. The 144,000 -Rev 14:1-7 & Isaiah 66:19


    Isaiah 66:20 From every nation, your brothers and sisters will be brought, on all kinds of transport, as an offering to the Lord, on His holy mountain in Jerusalem. Just as in the same way: you Israelites brought offerings to My Temple.

    Isaiah 66:21 I will select some of My people to be priests and Levites.

    Isaiah 66:22 As the new heavens and the new earth that I will make will endure before Me, so will your posterity and name endure.
    The NH, NE come after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

    Isaiah 66:23 Every month and every Sabbath, all mankind will come and bow down before Me. Zechariah 14:16-21, during the Millennium.

    Isaiah 66:24 And they will all see the bodies of those who rebelled against Me, for their worm will not die, nor is the fire quenched. They will be a horror to all.



    Isaiah 66:12-14 These are the words of the Lord; I shall make prosperity flow over Israel like a river. The wealth of nations will be yours. I will comfort you, as a mother comforts her child – in Zion, you will find peace. When you see this, your hearts will be glad, you will flourish. The Lord will make His power known among His servants, but His fury will be felt among His foes.
    Reference; R.E.B., N.I.V. K.J.V. some verses abridged.


    All of this passage in the last chapter of Isaiah, speaks of events that will happen before the glorious Return of Jesus. As it says in verse 14: the Lords power and fury will be known, but not His presence, at this time.
     
  8. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    You claim Isaiah 66:22 takes place after a supposed Millennium, then you claim Isaiah 66:23 is a Millennium, Big Smiles!

    Isaiah 66:22-24 is the Eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and Earth
     
  9. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Your false claims of Jesus returning within the next 20 years, has absolutely nothing to do with myself or my beliefs

    It appears your backed into a corner of truth, and trying to divert attention away from that guy named Keraz
     
  10. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Well-Known Member

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    Language correction: Pentecostals believe that "The initial evidence" of HAVING BEEN BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit, is speaking in tongues. This is derived Biblically from the instances where the Holy Spirit fell on groups, and tongues are mentioned. It was also the "Hallmark' of both the Pentecostal Revival (1900), and the Charismatic Outpouring (1966-1978 or so).

    The standard cessationist rationalization is that The Holy Spirit entered the disciples (and the church) in Acts 2:4.

    However, that actually happened Biblically at John 20:22 which was the punctiliar instant that the disciples were INFILLED with the Holy Spirit (the effect of which is given in Luke 24:45.

    Jesus THEN told them to hang around UNTIL THEY WERE ENDUED WITH POWER (clothed with power). SO Biblically, John 20:22 is the Holy Spirit IN the disciples, and Acts 2:4 is the Holy Spirit ON the Disciples - like He'd been coming ON certain people since the beginning.

    Only if you ignore Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 14, which makes clear that SPeaking in tongues is speaking to God (prayer).

    Nope - that's the cessationist rationalization against Full Gospel teaching. WHen we're Born Again, we have the INFILLING of the Holy Spirit, who fuzes with our spirit, and makes us "Christians".

    Jesus was specific that what happened at Acts 2:4 wasn't an "Infilling" it was a "CLothing with" the Holy Spirit.

    I agree - so why did you do exactly that????

    That's fine, but caution is needed. In MY case, the first "tongue" that I was burdened to Interpret for the Church was from a fellow that I had "written off" as a fleshly babbler.
     
  11. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    No correction necessary. I've considered myself a Pentecostal (of sorts) since I joined the Charismatic Movement, and have attended a variety of Pentecostal churches since the early 70s. I know what they believe--they believe we *should* have a Prayer Language, aka Speaking in Tongues. As the "initial evidence" of the Baptism, it means that without it who can know if you've really been Spirit Baptized, right?

    And I do know, and have heard a thousand times, where Spirit Baptism, as defined by Pentecostals, is derived from. As I've been saying, there is no *explicit theology or teaching* that Speaking in Tongues is to be the standard evidence that Spirit Baptism has been received. It was a "Proof by Example," which is a fallacious way of proving biblical theology. At best, it is proof that that is what happened in the beginning--it is not evidence that it is to be standard for the Church throughout the ages.

    That being said, the fact it happened and Paul taught tongues as one of several gifts of the Spirit makes me conclude that biblical theology sanctions and encourages Tongues. But as I said, it does *not* teach Tongues is the norm for all. On the contrary, we are taught that the Spirit reserves the right to pour out this gift as He sees fit, to individuals or to entire groups. He poured out Tongues on an entire group on Pentecost. And sometimes it happens in groups in that way. But theologically, the regular practice of Tongues is something the Holy Spirit determines, as I see it. I can be corrected on this, though.

    I'm not a cessationist, and I do believe that their position is basically correct. Where Pentecostalism becomes important is in pointing out the danger of becoming a lifeless, perfunctory, lutrigical, external Christianity. That's what I experienced growing up, and it took those more spiritual than my group to show me that there was an "abundant life" I should be experiencing along with my righteousness. I didn't realize how "spiritual" my righteousness was supposed to be. I didn't see any difference between walking in the 10 Commandments and following the Spirit.

    When I became conscious that God wanted all of me, I got it. I began to associate being "Spirit-filled" with obedience to the Lord's word inside my conscience.

    It's a little difficult for me to read the various times Jesus poured out the Spirit on his Disciples and know how the theology of Spirit Baptism relates to it. Currently, I believe that spiritual anointing existed even while the Law was in effect. For example, John the Baptist was "filled with the Spirit."

    However, the Baptism of Jesus that John the Baptist mentioned is NT Baptism, which is the pouring out of the Spirit to apply the work of Christ on the cross. Before Jesus, the Spirit could only apply the Law to those in covenant under that system.

    I'm not clear enough on all of the prepositions to discuss it intelligently. My view is as above. The particular covenant under which the Spirit was poured out determines what kind of Baptism it was. The Baptism John spoke of as "Jesus' Baptism" is given to all believers. But many believers become, like me, spiritually dead for the most part, coming and going out of the Spirit with no sense of it. Your walk is only as deep as your attention to what you understand.

    No, I don't ignore the fact Tongues is a form of prayer! I think it sounds like a great gift.

    I can't answer this part. Sorry!
     
  12. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    JESUS said: I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? - Luke 12:v.49. Well, NOW our Lord JESUS will blow the FIRE strongly and the little flames that remained until the current time will be transformed in great or gigantic flames, the LAMB of GOD is wrathed.

    You are saying that. According the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD- there is true manifestation in tongues given by the Holy Spirit -Acts 2:1-13- so, if any say, in this case, the manifestation is of demons, this one is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and will never be forgiven, but never.

    But there are false manifestations in tongues that manifest themselves and they are from demoniacal origin, even you said: "(... I'm completely aware that this does happen)."
    Well, they are identified by those who have the gift of discerning spirit and received power to stop and cast out the disguised and deceiver spirit of demon. By the way, the same operation happens with regard to the false interpreters of the Word of God, the gift of discerning spirits is able to identify the disguised spirits when they are using Scriptures surreptitiously to deeive the GOD's people.

    I myself was many times face to face with Pastors of Assembly of GOD which spoke in tongues, but was a false tongue, a deceiver tongue. Actually, they were not baptized by Holy Spirit, so they trembled and rolled their tongue in the mouth to speak in tongue falsely, the tongue sounded like a ridiculous sound -"bala bala bala bala"- , in this manner they spoke in tongue-bala bala bala bala-, a false tongue, they were not baptized by the Holy Spirit, they weren't really, but they sounded a mere and disguised and RIDICULOUS imitation. They invented a kind of tongue trying to give an impression they were baptized by the Holy Spirit, but they were not.

    So, by the sound I could discern when they spoke tongues by the spirit of a demon, the sound was not from a heavenly source but from a source of the blackness of the darkness, even the preachings of their sermons were not by the Holy Spirit, but by the spirit of demon, it was and as really is a horrible sound, it was and is a horrible thing, of course, because they preached in accord a devilish perspective, not according GOD's perspective. Read 2 Corinthians 11:v.13 to 15 about ministers of the Devil.

    Compare the above description with a biblical similar happening, and see the consequences of those that make an imitation and mock on the works of GOD - Judges 12:v. 4 to 6 :

    4 Jephthah gathered together all the men of Gilead, and fought with Ephraim: and the men of Gilead smote Ephraim, because they said, Ye Gileadites are fugitives of Ephraim among the Ephraimites, and among the Manassites.

    5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;

    6 Then said they unto him, Say now SHIbboleth: and he said SIbboleth, FOR HE was unable to pronounce it right. Then the Gileadites took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

    That said, the Charismatic outpouring among the idolaters, worshippers of dead, was really "a demonic phenomenon" as you above wrote.
    You asked: "Have I got that right??

    Yes, you got right, you are right, of course, according your own words saying:
    "(... I'm completely aware that this does happen)."

    1 Corinthians 3:v.12-13
    12 If any man build upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (THIS PROPHETIC MESSAGE WILL FULFILL LITERALLY IN THIS CURRENT TIME)

    Be careful


    Isaiah 33
    Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

    Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
     
  13. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'm coming back to this part, which I hadn't answered yet. I had to think about it. I don't teach cessationism in any form whatsoever, and I think you're completely missing the boat on this one. You are so prejudiced against those who don't believe in a "glossolalia for all" that you even think those who believe in "glssolalia for some" are cessationists? I don't think so--not even remotely. That defies the definition of cessationism.

    To say that even "glossolalia for some" is not Full Gospel also defies the meaning of "Full Gospel." Pentecostals use the term to indicate belief that the gifts of the Spirit remain functioning today. I believe that--I just don't believe all Christians should have all the gifts of the Spirit.

    1 Cor 12.7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines...
    14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many...
    29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?


    A simple reading of this should tell you that we are not all the same, don't all have the same gifts, and certainly do not each have all the gifts! But Pentecostals will be Pentecostals! ;)

    Yes, I've heard these kinds of distinctions since Bible School in the early 70s! Never allowed me to form a systematic theology on it, because it seemed highly suspect. It was subjective, and not very cohesive as a theology across the entire New Testament.

    But if we begin with the notion that Jesus' Baptism was the basis for Christianity, as John the Baptist suggested, then we can fit all of these divergent passages together cohesively. And we shouldn't be put off by those who claim to be Christians but don't experience the fulness of it simply because like Apollos they hadn't had it completely explained to them yet. Acts 18.26

    We are clothed with Christ when we get saved. We do *not* get clothed with the Spirit Baptism. Pentecostals twist these words around to make them say what they want to hear, in accordance with their presumed theology.

    Rom 13.14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

    Being "filled with the Spirit" is no different from being "clothed with Christ" except that one explains that the Spirit is to fully reside in us, dominating our whole being, and the other expresses that by being clothed with Christ we put on the righteousness of Christ which has come to dwell within us.

    They are not different stages in Salvation. They are different truths with respect to our one Salvation.

    Salvation is by one Jesus Christ and by one Holy Spirit. We may lack the full expression of that if we aren't taught to remain *exclusively* in the Spirit. But it is the same Salvation whether we walk in and out of it or remain completely within it.

    I don't espouse cessationism, as I indicated above. This seems more like an emotional reaction than a well thought-out accusation?

    My point was that the brother instantly knee-jerk reacted to something he didn't believe in and claimed Christians were acting in a demonic way. My suggestion was that when considering Christians, ask if perhaps they are deceived and may just be indulging in a meaningless exercise before accusing them of having bad or even evil motives?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
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