will faith still be here?

[Truth7t7]

I actually think that it's a mistake to create a simplistic dichotomy, because it misrepresents the facts. Though we may generalize that when Israel is in decline and nearly all of them are corrupt it is *not* correct that the entire nation is corrupt. There were always men like Elijah or Jeremiah who held the standard faithfully, who did not participate in the corruption. On the contrary, they worked against the corruption!

So no, we cannot say that Israel is "the flesh." And when we take a Jewish name and apply it to non-Jewish Christians what we're really doing is allegorizing. The Scriptures do not teach this, in my opinion. There are verses that sound like that, but I don't agree that they are teaching that.



This is not saying that all Israel is the flesh. It's actually teaching the opposite!



Yes, we agree that at the point of judgment Israel lost her blessing from God, and became, as Hosea indicated, "Not My People." But as Hosea indicated this was to be a temporary judgment. Just as Israel was restored after the Babylonian Captivity, so will Israel be restored after God's abandonment of them during the NT era. Just my opinion.



This could conceivably be teaching Replacement Theology. But I don't think so. I think Peter was writing to Jewish believers, to set an example for all believers that they should become holy nations. And that's what happened when the Roman Empire became Christian, and when Christianity expanded among the nations of Europe. There came to be *many* "holy nations," just as God had promised Abraham.

But keep in mind that if God promised Abraham many believing nations he also was promised a biological nation descended from him. If Israel falls never to rise again, then Christian nations will also fall, never to rise again. But in the Millennium I believe all of this will be fulfilled.

Gods word clearly states "Children Of The Flesh" Unsaved Jews, Ethnic Israel Of The Flesh

I'm fully aware (Church) there is neither Jew nor Greek

When the Remnant Jew in Romans 11 is saved, they lose identity and become (Church) the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

 

[Randy Kluth]

Gods word clearly states "Children Of The Flesh" Unsaved Jews, Ethnic Israel Of The Flesh

I'm fully aware (Church) there is neither Jew nor Greek

When the Remnant Jew in Romans 11 is saved, they lose identity and become (Church) the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Gal 4 generalizes about the state of Israel when the vast majority turn towards the flesh. That does not mean that Israel is, by definition, children of the flesh (in the negative sense of that term).

Being biologically descended from Abraham is an asset, and not a liability. Being of natural descent from a man of God is a good thing, and not a bad thing. It just does not *guarantee* your place among those who are spiritually minded.

Being "neither Jew nor Greek" has to do with qualifications for inheriting Eternal Life. All nations can qualify to inherit eternal life, though it is a matter of individual faith. But entire nations can adopt Christianity as their standard for society. And ignoring ethnic qualifications for Salvation has nothing to do with losing your ethnicity!

Nothing in Rom 11 indicates Jews lose their identity as members of Israel. Jews remain members of Israel when they are citizens of the state of Israel, or even when they live in exile, waiting to return to a restored state of Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

Being biologically descended from Abraham is an asset, and not a liability. Being of natural descent from a man of God is a good thing, and not a bad thing.

Being "neither Jew nor Greek" has to do with qualifications for inheriting Eternal Life. All nations can qualify to inherit eternal life, though it is a matter of individual faith. But entire nations can adopt Christianity as their standard for society. And ignoring ethnic qualifications for Salvation has nothing to do with losing your ethnicity!

Nothing in Rom 11 indicates Jews lose their identity as members of Israel. Jews remain members of Israel when they are citizens of the state of Israel, or even when they live in exile, waiting to return to a restored state of Israel.

Being a ethnic Jew has no favor in Gods eyes as you suggest, Judaism of today follows the filthy Rabbinacal Talmud and the esoteric Kabbalah, both are evil

There is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary, period

There are two groups in the world today, and that is saved and unsaved of all races and nations

The Church is the Israel of God, Children of the promised seed

 

[Randy Kluth]

Being a ethnic Jew has no favor in Gods eyes as you suggest, Judaism of today follows the filthy Rabbinacal Talmud and the esoteric Kabbalah, both are evil

There is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary, period

There are two groups in the world today, and that is saved and unsaved of all races and nations

The Church is the Israel of God, Children of the promised seed

The Church is not Israel. Israel is Israel. You are confusing the terms. Allegorizing Israel as the Church is not the same thing as calling the Church 'Israel" as a definition.

Though the literature and bibles of other religions may be "vile" in some ways, it doesn't help the cause of evangelism to "curse the darkness." It's better to light a candle. Better not to use the truth as a sword when you're trying to save someone. Otherwise I agree with you--there is only one covenant through which eternal life comes, the covenant of Christ.

 

[Keraz]

The Church is not Israel. Israel is Israel. You are confusing the terms. Allegorizing Israel as the Church is not the same thing as calling the Church 'Israel" as a definition.

You are right, in that the nation of Israel is not the Church. Israel is inhabited by people who falsely claim that name.
But the Christian people are the Israelites of God. By faith. Galatians 6:14-16

Remember: Satan is the great deceiver, he motivates peoples to imitate what God has planned.
Over 20 prophesies plainly state how God will act to clear and cleanse the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are right, in that the nation of Israel is not the Church. Israel is inhabited by people who falsely claim that name.
But the Christian people are the Israelites of God. By faith. Galatians 6:14-16

Remember: Satan is the great deceiver, he motivates peoples to imitate what God has planned.
Over 20 prophesies plainly state how God will act to clear and cleanse the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Yes, God will cleanse the holy land, but He has given it to ethnic Jews--not to Christians all around the world! The fact that God turned away from Israel in the time of Jesus to reach out to the Gentile nations does not mean that suddenly the international Church became the nation of Israel!

You are allegorizing the word "Israel." And that isn't what Paul meant when he cited "Israel" in Gal 6.

Gal 6.15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Paul is declaring what Israel's fulfillment under Christ should be, namely the end of the Law and the regulations of the Law. Christ is the end of the Law, bringing eternal salvation to those who had continuously been reminded of their need for cleansing.

Saying this Paul was not turning the word 'Israel" into an allegorical word by definition. On the contrary, he was setting Israel as a proper NT model for other nations to follow. That is Paul's pattern, for other nations to learn from Israel as a model of theocracy.

1 Cor 10.11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Paul here argues that Israel was a model for Christianity in the negative sense that what happened to them as judgments could happen to us too if we also fail to repent of our sins. But Paul in Gal 6 is arguing that on the other hand Israel in its proper NT sense should be a light to the world, an example of freedom from the condemnation of the Law.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church is not Israel. Israel is Israel. You are confusing the terms. Allegorizing Israel as the Church is not the same thing as calling the Church 'Israel" as a definition.

Though the literature and bibles of other religions may be "vile" in some ways, it doesn't help the cause of evangelism to "curse the darkness." It's better to light a candle. Better not to use the truth as a sword when you're trying to save someone. Otherwise I agree with you--there is only one covenant through which eternal life comes, the covenant of Christ.

I'm not allegorizing anything, "The Church" is "The Israel Of God" Roman's 9:6-8

At no time have I stated Israel isnt a nation in this world as you suggest

Once again, I have stated "The Church" is (The Israel Of God)

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, God will cleanse the holy land, but He has given it to ethnic Jews--not to Christians all around the world! The fact that God turned away from Israel in the time of Jesus to reach out to the Gentile nations does not mean that suddenly the international Church became the nation of Israel!

You are allegorizing the word "Israel." And that isn't what Paul meant when he cited "Israel" in Gal 6.

Gal 6.15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Paul is declaring what Israel's fulfillment under Christ should be, namely the end of the Law and the regulations of the Law. Christ is the end of the Law, bringing eternal salvation to those who had continuously been reminded of their need for cleansing.

Saying this Paul was not turning the word 'Israel" into an allegorical word by definition. On the contrary, he was setting Israel as a proper NT model for other nations to follow. That is Paul's pattern, for other nations to learn from Israel as a model of theocracy.

1 Cor 10.11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Paul here argues that Israel was a model for Christianity in the negative sense that what happened to them as judgments could happen to us too if we also fail to repent of our sins. But Paul in Gal 6 is arguing that on the other hand Israel in its proper NT sense should be a light to the world, an example of freedom from the condemnation of the Law.

God has take the Kingdom from Israel, and given it to the holy nation the Church, bringing forth the fruits thereof

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Keraz]

You are allegorizing the word "Israel." And that isn't what Paul meant when he cited "Israel" in Gal 6.

No I am not. Israel simply means 'an overcomer for God'.
What those people who currently inhabit the holy Land, certainly are not.

The idea that anyone can go to the Jewish State of Israel and become a member of Gods chosen nation, is ridiculous.
They merely claim to be Jews and call themselves Israelis, without any proof of it.

Here is what Paul said in: Galatians 6:14-16 God forbit that I should boast of anything but the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, thru which the worlds is crucified to me and I to the world. Circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing, the only thing which counts is the new creation. A person converted to Christianity.
All who take this principal for their guide; peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God.

It is the Jews and the confused and deceived Christians who allegorize the word Israel to apply only to those who claim it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No I am not. Israel simply means 'an overcomer for God'.
What those people who currently inhabit the holy Land, certainly are not.

We don't always live up to our names. But I'm a strong believer in redemption. I don't believe that all Israel will, in the future, refuse to repent. But the many that do refuse to repent will be removed.

The idea that anyone can go to the Jewish State of Israel and become a member of Gods chosen nation, is ridiculous.
They merely claim to be Jews and call themselves Israelis, without any proof of it.

But that isn't the way it works. You don't, of course, just join up with God's Army by moving into the nation. But the nation was, in fact, called to be God's Army. The fact the nation has gotten compromised doesn't mean a future generation won't be able to fulfill that destiny.

Here is what Paul said in: Galatians 6:14-16 God forbit that I should boast of anything but the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, thru which the worlds is crucified to me and I to the world. Circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing, the only thing which counts is the new creation. A person converted to Christianity.
All who take this principal for their guide; peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God.

It is the Jews and the confused and deceived Christians who allegorize the word Israel to apply only to those who claim it.

I'm not saying that any Jew can claim to be in God's Chosen simply by declaring their Jewishness, or by immigrating to Israel. But it is the destiny of *some Jews* to take that calling seriously, and to stand in place of those who refuse to do so. Paul was the one who said that ethnicity doesn't determine your election. But neither did he say that ethnicity prevents your election.

Paul is also the one who said Israel is called to ultimately fulfill their destiny (Rom 9-11). Current failure does not prevent ultimate success in this regard.

So when Paul said that peace should be upon the Israel of God, he is saying that the ideal Israel, under the New Covenant, should experience peace by the Gospel rather than condemnation by the Law. In fact, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

In this Paul is saying that all believers should follow this ideal Israel whose destiny it is to obtain grace in the end. We are not under the Law, but under grace. This is where Paul was saying Israel should be and is destined to be. So this is where we should be too.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm not allegorizing anything, "The Church" is "The Israel Of God" Roman's 9:6-8

That is the equivalent of saying a pig is a bird. But pigs don't fly. Neither is Israel the Church. And if you're saying the Church is "Israel," then clearly, you're allegorizing the word "Israel."

At no time have I stated Israel isnt a nation in this world as you suggest

Indeed you may believe in 2 "Israels," one an allegorized "Israel" and the other literal Israel. But logically, the literal Israel is the literal Israel. There is no "allegorical Israel," regardless of what Romans 9 says.

Rom 9.6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

This is *not* saying "the Church is Israel!" This is only saying that one Jew may act contrary to Israel's call, whereas another Jew may act in accord with Israel's call. One is, in Paul's words, a "true Jew," and the other, a "false Jew."

Rom 2.28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Again, Paul is not making all Christians into Jews. Rather, he is idealizing the "true Jew" so that Gentiles would know that to inherit God's election one must be like a true Jew, who adds to his calling true faithfulness.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God has take the Kingdom from Israel, and given it to the holy nation the Church, bringing forth the fruits thereof

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And who is the Church? It is those to whom God delivered the Gospel of Christ through his apostles, ie the Romans, and in particular Roman Civilization, later known as European civilization.

 

[Truth7t7]

We don't always live up to our names. But I'm a strong believer in redemption. I don't believe that all Israel will, in the future, refuse to repent. But the many that do refuse to repent will be removed.



But that isn't the way it works. You don't, of course, just join up with God's Army by moving into the nation. But the nation was, in fact, called to be God's Army. The fact the nation has gotten compromised doesn't mean a future generation won't be able to fulfill that destiny.



I'm not saying that any Jew can claim to be in God's Chosen simply by declaring their Jewishness, or by immigrating to Israel. But it is the destiny of *some Jews* to take that calling seriously, and to stand in place of those who refuse to do so. Paul was the one who said that ethnicity doesn't determine your election. But neither did he say that ethnicity prevents your election.

Paul is also the one who said Israel is called to ultimately fulfill their destiny (Rom 9-11). Current failure does not prevent ultimate success in this regard.

So when Paul said that peace should be upon the Israel of God, he is saying that the ideal Israel, under the New Covenant, should experience peace by the Gospel rather than condemnation by the Law. In fact, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

In this Paul is saying that all believers should follow this ideal Israel whose destiny it is to obtain grace in the end. We are not under the Law, but under grace. This is where Paul was saying Israel should be and is destined to be. So this is where we should be too.

Israel as a nation isnt going to be saved, only the Remnant elect will be chosen and added to the Church on earth

 

[Truth7t7]

And who is the Church? It is those to whom God delivered the Gospel of Christ through his apostles, ie the Romans, and in particular Roman Civilization, later known as European civilization.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China

 

[Truth7t7]

That is the equivalent of saying a pig is a bird. But pigs don't fly. Neither is Israel the Church. And if you're saying the Church is "Israel," then clearly, you're allegorizing the word "Israel."



Indeed you may believe in 2 "Israels," one an allegorized "Israel" and the other literal Israel. But logically, the literal Israel is the literal Israel. There is no "allegorical Israel," regardless of what Romans 9 says.

Rom 9.6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

This is *not* saying "the Church is Israel!" This is only saying that one Jew may act contrary to Israel's call, whereas another Jew may act in accord with Israel's call. One is, in Paul's words, a "true Jew," and the other, a "false Jew."

Rom 2.28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Again, Paul is not making all Christians into Jews. Rather, he is idealizing the "true Jew" so that Gentiles would know that to inherit God's election one must be like a true Jew, who adds to his calling true faithfulness.

Nothing allegorical about Gods words below, "Two Israel's are seen below "Two"

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Randy Kluth]

Israel as a nation isnt going to be saved, only the Remnant elect will be chosen and added to the Church on earth

Yea, I understand where you're coming from. But I believe God promised Abraham a nation of faith. That is, a nation can be based on a Christian Constitution without every single individual being saved.

This is how Christian nations were in previous centuries, where a kingdom would be founded on Christian principles and some of the people were nominally Christian whereas others were seriously Christian.

It is always that way with nations. But since God promised Israel would be fulfilled one day, I believe Israel will one day be founded on a Christian Constitution with many of the people being sincere Christians. Why would you oppose that?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yea, I understand where you're coming from. But I believe God promised Abraham a nation of faith. That is, a nation can be based on a Christian Constitution without every single individual being saved.

This is how Christian nations were in previous centuries, where a kingdom would be founded on Christian principles and some of the people were nominally Christian whereas others were seriously Christian.

It is always that way with nations. But since God promised Israel would be fulfilled one day, I believe Israel will one day be founded on a Christian Constitution with many of the people being sincere Christians. Why would you oppose that?

God promised Abraham a "Nation" of faith?

Your strongly suggesting Israel as a "Nation" will be saved, because there is only one faith, and that's in Jesus Christ

How will this National Israel Be Chosen And Saved?

Citizenship in Israel?
Jewish bloodline in Israel?
Adherence to Judaism in Israel?

Israel as a Nation is comprised of many ethnic persons and religions in their citizenship, how is your National Israel going to be chosen and saved?

 

[Randy Kluth]

God promised Abraham a "Nation" of faith?

Your strongly suggesting Israel as a "Nation" will be saved, because there is only one faith, and that's in Jesus Christ

How will this National Israel Be Chosen And Saved?

Citizenship in Israel?
Jewish bloodline in Israel?
Adherence to Judaism in Israel?

Israel as a Nation is comprised of many ethnic persons and religions in their citizenship, how is your National Israel going to be chosen and saved?

Like I said brother--it's no different from Christian nations in history. When Israel converts as a Jewish nation from Judaism to Christianity they will be delivered from all of the judgments they've had to go through for the last 2000 years! They will experience national savlation--not personal salvation, although personal salvation will also be in the mix for many of them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Like I said brother--it's no different from Christian nations in history. When Israel converts as a Jewish nation from Judaism to Christianity they will be delivered from all of the judgments they've had to go through for the last 2000 years! They will experience national savlation--not personal salvation, although personal salvation will also be in the mix for many of them.

I disagree, there isnt a Christian Nation in this world

Many Nations might have more Christian's than others, but I cant see a christian Nation in this world, including America

And to claim this is a National salvation?

 

[Keraz]

When Israel converts as a Jewish nation from Judaism to Christianity

This is just never prophesied to happen.
Many scriptures say that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive.
In Zechariah 12:11-14, only a few remaining families will mourn for Jesus.