will faith still be here?

[Keraz]

Ezekiel 20:30-32 Go, tell the Israelites; the Lord God says: Are you defiling yourselves as your forefathers did and lusting after other gods? You are defiling yourselves this very day with your false religions and insincere faith. Israel, I refuse to be consulted by you. You can never be like the other nations, who worship idols.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 As I live, says the Lord, I shall reign over you with a strong hand and by My wrath, I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the countries where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into the Meeting place in the desert, there I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Just as I did in Egypt with your forefathers, so I shall judge you. [as He did in the days of Egypt, therefore before the Return of Jesus] I shall make you pass under the rod [of judgement] and I will bring you into the bond of the Covenant. All those who rebel or revolt against Me will not set foot on the soil of Israel.

Ezekiel 20:39-42 Now, you Israelites – go serve your idols. But in days to come you will be punished for it, then no more will you desecrate My holy Name. For there, in the land of Israel, the entire House of Israel will serve Me. After I have restored you to the Land of your forefathers, I shall require your offerings and gifts and then I will accept you as a fragrant incense. Isaiah 45:16-17

Ezekiel 20:42-44 When I bring you back to the soil of Israel, you will despise yourselves for your past conduct and you will know that I am your God. Not as your wickedness deserves, but as the honour of My Holy Name demands. Isaiah 43:25

Ezekiel 20:45-48 The Word of the Lord came to me: Ezekiel, turn and face toward the South, prophesy to the desert of the Negev. Say to it: The Lord God says – I am about to set a fire in you and it will consume all flammable things. Its fiery flame will not be put out and all people from the South to the North will be scorched by it. All will see that it is I, the Lord, who has set it ablaze, not to be quenched. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Jeremiah 12:14 Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged


V 30-32 Judah and Israel alike are atheistic, apostate, pursue false religions and materialism. This is not their destiny. Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 60:3.

V 33-38 After the Day of vengeance and wrath, the Lord will gather His people into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:4, Isaiah 11-11-13, Isa 14:1-2, Isa 35:10, Jer. 5:26

V 39-44 Do as you will for now, but judgement will come. The present age, soon to change. Isaiah 41:1, Hosea 12:2

In the Land, all true believers, Israelites or grafted in, will serve the Lord. Isa 26:2, Isa 29:22-23, Isa 66:20-21, 1 Peter 2:9-10. “You will know that I am your God” this phrase would be unnecessary if all of this prophecy takes place after the Return of Jesus. Therefore, this all happens before that. His people, a Christian nation, living in peace and security in the Holy Land – being “a light to the nations”. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

V 45-48 This will be the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal, which will clear and cleanse the holy Land.

There is no record of an event as described, happening in the Negev area. The description is what would result from a Coronal Mass Ejection, [sunstrike] that will affect all the world. This is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, ‘all will see that it is I, the Lord, who have set it ablaze’, so it is not a man caused event such as a nuke war. Isaiah 63:1-6, Isa 30:26, Isa 21:1, Eze 21:1-5, Isa 9:18-19, Isa 33:10-12, Isa 10:17-19, Jer 9:25-26, Jer 23: 19-20. Rev 6:12-17.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Good start. If a little convoluted!
We are plainly told that race has nothing to do with Salvation. Ephesians 2:1-18

There is no Promise like this for the Jews; the House of Judah, anywhere in the Bible.

Jeremiah's new covenant prophecy says exactly that! Your problem is that you distinguish between "Israel" and the "Jewish People." There is absolutely no basis for that in the Bible!

All of your arguments are predicated on this notion that the Jewish People are no longer "Israel," that "believers in Christ from all races" are now "Israel." I don't believe in Replacement Theology, even if you don't deny "Jews" are still 'Jews." To deny "Jews" are "Israel" is, in fact, Replacement Theology.

Why is it so necessary for you to believe we're somehow related to the Jewish People (meaning the 10 Tribes)? Do you loath your own race? Why should you?

We, among the European races, have as great a heritage as the Jews do. Abraham was promised not just one race but many races.

We have a Christian heritage dating back as far as Paul's ministry. That's roughly a 2000 years history, as long as the history of the Jews (Abraham) up until Christ!

Be proud of yourself as a non-Jew. This is not to bash Jews, but to declare the essential equality of nations, which was God's purpose with the Jews all along, to make us all equal in Christ. I'm proud of my Finnish/German half-breed status. I'll wear the labels proudly!

 

[Keraz]

Jeremiah's new covenant prophecy says exactly that! Your problem is that you distinguish between "Israel" and the "Jewish People." There is absolutely no basis for that in the Bible!

Only about 160 times that Israel and Judah are mentioned in the Bible, as separate entities.
They divided in into those two Houses in King Rehoboam's time and remain separate now.

Jeremiah's new covenant prophecy says exactly that!

Yes, the New Covenant, will be made with Israel and Judah and all the grafted in peoples. Every faithful Christian.

Why is it so necessary for you to believe we're somehow related to the Jewish People (meaning the 10 Tribes)? Do you loath your own race? Why should you?

My belief is that it is a possibility I may be descended from the tribe of Asher, due to my Scottish ancestry.
However; that is immaterial and inconsequential at present. ONLY my Christian faith counts!

Abraham was promised not just one race but many races.

But to claim Abraham as our father is a mistake, as Jesus made clear: I tell you that God can make children for Abraham out of these stones.... Matthew 3:7-10
Practically every race can make that claim today. Genetic dispersion is universal after 100 generations.
But God looks at the heart, the true descendants of Abraham are those who have the faith he did. Galatians 3:26-29

Be proud of yourself as a non-Jew.

I am not a Jew, but I am an Israelite.
That distinction is of paramount importance for the understanding of Bible Prophecy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Only about 160 times that Israel and Judah are mentioned in the Bible, as separate entities.
They divided in into those two Houses in King Rehoboam's time and remain separate now.

Yes, but out of those 160 times where does it say that the Jewish People are anyone other than "Israel?" Nowhere!

Yes, the New Covenant, will be made with Israel and Judah and all the grafted in peoples. Every faithful Christian.

Yes, that's a "sticky one." My take on it is that individuals were grafted into spiritual Israel. "Spiritual Israel" refers to believers in Israel. At that time, only Israel was available to be grafted on. Today, there have been many Christian nations that we are already citizens of. Others may be grafted into our spiritual nation, as well.

My belief is that it is a possibility I may be descended from the tribe of Asher, due to my Scottish ancestry.
However; that is immaterial and inconsequential at present. ONLY my Christian faith counts!

Did you know that there were more influential people percentage wise to the Scottish people than any other national group? I'd be more proud of being a Christian Scot! Israel has nothing over on any Christian nation in the world! Israel can be proud that they started the tradition, but they certainly didn't exhaust it or finish it!

I am not a Jew, but I am an Israelite.
That distinction is of paramount importance for the understanding of Bible Prophecy.

It is not paramount either for prophecy or for your own dignity. You should take great pride in your Scottish ancestry, and forget about trying to be part Jewish. I know--at one time or another many of us have done that, including moi.

 

[Keraz]

Yes, but out of those 160 times where does it say that the Jewish People are anyone other than "Israel?" Nowhere!

True Jews are just 2/12ths of all Israel.
However: many if not most of the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, are not genuine descendants of Judah or Benjamin. They are just 'wannabees', and have converted to Judaism.

My take on it is that individuals were grafted into spiritual Israel. "Spiritual Israel" refers to believers in Israel.

Every individual, Jew or gentile; must be grafted into Spiritual Israel, the 'Tree' of Jesus.
Spiritual Israelites are every faithful Christian believer.

It is not paramount either for prophecy or for your own dignity. You should take great pride in your Scottish ancestry, and forget about trying to be part Jewish

I am grateful for having been born into a wonderful tradition.
But now; I am 'part' of no particular people group, I wait for the great Day when the Lord will destroy His enemies and cleanse the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
THEN, we will live there in peace and prosperity, in our own Christian nation. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26, Ezekiel 34:11-16
I invite you to come and sit under my vine and fig trees. Zechariah 3:9-10

 

[Randy Kluth]

True Jews are just 2/12ths of all Israel.
However: many if not most of the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, are not genuine descendants of Judah or Benjamin. They are just 'wannabees', and have converted to Judaism.

Who would, in any numbers, convert to a religion that in a sense idolized the Jewish race? If you weren't a Jew, you weren't one of the Chosen Ones! I've heard that the Khazars were Turks who may have converted to Judaism, but that's of little effect, regardless. The only ones benefiting from a conversion are those who wish to live among Jews.

The fact Jews are mixed does not stop them from being Jews anymore than my being half German makes me stop being half Finnish. Your race often causes you to live in a nation with your race, regardless of your own personal mix.

When minorities move into a country that has economic advantages, the minorities often remain within minority communities initially. The process of immersion is gradual.

But there would be little advantage for a non-Jewish minority to move in among Jews and immerse with them. Even so, those they mix in with remain a Jewish community by virtue of tradition, religion, and history.

There are lots of Indian tribes still here in the U.S., and though they undoubtedly have some Caucasian in them, the fact they originated from Indians and remain among Indians on reservations keeps them Indians. It would be no different for the Jews, who are resistant to merging in with the national populations they live among. Their religion tends to keep them separate, and to retain their identity as a race.

For many years, long after the tribes began to lose their distinction, the Levites maintained their identity because their religion required them to do so. It is the same with the Jews. They wish to maintain their connection to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for religious reasons. And so they choose to remain somewhat aloof from non-Jews.

I am grateful for having been born into a wonderful tradition.
But now; I am 'part' of no particular people group, I wait for the great Day when the Lord will destroy His enemies and cleanse the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
THEN, we will live there in peace and prosperity, in our own Christian nation. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26, Ezekiel 34:11-16
I invite you to come and sit under my vine and fig trees. Zechariah 3:9-10

I know my words will probably fall on deaf ears. But you have a great tradition indeed, being part of the race and nation you belong to. I suspect that nation is one of the nations promised to Abraham by faith, just as God promised Israel to Abraham by faith. It's like God has all of these jars filled with many different kinds of jams, all of them delectable. And yet all the different kinds of jams want to fit into a single jar. Why?

 

[Keraz]

When minorities move into a country that has economic advantages, the minorities often remain within minority communities initially. The process of immersion is gradual.

Immigrants to any country take generations to assimilate and they NEVER become ethnically; the original people. Always just a mixture, a mongrel race.
But with Abraham's genes, from 100 generations ago; everyone alive today has some. So there is not and cannot be; any 'special' ethnicity.

It is the same with the Jews. They wish to maintain their connection to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for religious reasons.

As I showed in Matthew 3:7-10 that does them no good whatsoever.

you have a great tradition indeed, being part of the race and nation you belong to.

Thanks, but I count that for nothing. It will be only my faith in Jesus that saves me and gives me citizenship in the new nation in all of the holy Land and eventually in the Millennium Kingdom.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I recently read an interesting commentary on 2 Thessalonians where it mentioned the antichrist. The commentator said that the antichrist does not refer to an actual person, but a kingdom within the established Church. Actually the Scripture says that the antichrist was around in the 1st Century AD, and as the antichrist hijacked more and more of the Church, it infected it so much that it was basically apostate right up until the Reformation. But the Reformation did not erase the antichrist from the church. It is still there in every ritualistic, formalised church, and some denominations have been hijacked by the modernist, liberal, social justice movement, which is the modern expression of the antichrist. It is predicted that the day will come when the Church will be so infected with the antichrist movement within it, that there will be very few genuine Christians. The abomination in the sanctuary exists in many churches today, and it is on the rise, and as Jesus predicted, as the antichrist movement takes over more and more of the Church, there will be the general falling away and the antichrist movement will emerge with its false teaching, signs and wonders to deceive almost the very elect.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Immigrants to any country take generations to assimilate and they NEVER become ethnically; the original people. Always just a mixture, a mongrel race.
But with Abraham's genes, from 100 generations ago; everyone alive today has some. So there is not and cannot be; any 'special'

Having Abraham's genes means nothing unless those that have them inhabit the land of Israel. You think many of us have some Abrahamic genes and will eventually inhabit the land of Israel. I don't.

But there is a body of people who also have some Abrahamic genes who have carried on the tradition of the Jewish People. And they now inhabit the land of Israel. So they fit the bill to me.

Obviously, we're not going to agree on this. So carry on.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I recently read an interesting commentary on 2 Thessalonians where it mentioned the antichrist. The commentator said that the antichrist does not refer to an actual person, but a kingdom within the established Church. Actually the Scripture says that the antichrist was around in the 1st Century AD, and as the antichrist hijacked more and more of the Church, it infected it so much that it was basically apostate right up until the Reformation. But the Reformation did not erase the antichrist from the church. It is still there in every ritualistic, formalised church, and some denominations have been hijacked by the modernist, liberal, social justice movement, which is the modern expression of the antichrist. It is predicted that the day will come when the Church will be so infected with the antichrist movement within it, that there will be very few genuine Christians. The abomination in the sanctuary exists in many churches today, and it is on the rise, and as Jesus predicted, as the antichrist movement takes over more and more of the Church, there will be the general falling away and the antichrist movement will emerge with its false teaching, signs and wonders to deceive almost the very elect.

Be cautious with commentaries. They can be very helpful, but often they are just educated opinions. Take them with a grain of salt. I use them all the time, but am aware of their limitations.

My own view is that Antichrist will be a real person, as well as an empire. That's how the Scriptures appear to portray him. Paul called him the "man of sin." Daniel called him the "Little Horn."

But clearly, both Daniel and the Revelation portray him also as heading an empire, a conglomeration of 10 nations, presided over by 7 kings, along with the Antichrist.

Paul depicts the Antichrist as "sitting in the temple, proclaiming himself to be God." What he is doing, according to the Revelation, is exalting Satan as his god, and doing so in the place where God reveals Himself to be truly God. I believe that is in heaven. Antichrist appears to be making a claim to Deity in heaven. Just my opinion for now.

I think that this is similar to what your commentator seems to think, that the spirit of Antichrist invades the Church. The Church also is the place where God dwells. AntiChristianity does persist within the nominal Church to some degree, because some of the Church *in name* are not truly faithful to that name.

But really, it is *Sin* that the Church retains--not AntiChristianity. The Church has always had sin in her, just as sin is in every one of us. And sometimes, that sin gets entrenched in the customs and traditions of the Church, as well as in her practices. It is indeed a dangerous thing, making an effort at reform always necessary.

These are just my thoughts. Carry on.

 

[Keraz]

The commentator said that the antichrist does not refer to an actual person, but a kingdom within the established Church.

But the prophesied Anti-Christ to come in the end times, will be a man.
A charismatic and powerful leader, as described in Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:5-8

But there is a body of people who also have some Abrahamic genes who have carried on the tradition of the Jewish People. And they now inhabit the land of Israel.

Genetic studies prove that Abrahams genes are ubiquitous, EVERYONE must have at least some of them.

Carrying on traditions and where people live has nothing to do with their standing with God.

IDENTITY THEFT: Stealing God’s Gift of a Name:
The identity under consideration is the title of “Israel.”

When this name first used, it was bestowed on Jacob by God at Peniel, after he had wrestled with Him through the night and it was given to designate the patriarch’s new spiritual status: in God’s own words, “Thy name shall be no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince you have power with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

This name is utterly unique! God, wanting to purify and equip His patriarch of the future Covenant people, Himself wrestles with Jacob, giving him strength to continue and even prevail, in his desire for the blessing. Jacob’s own strength was unequal to the task, and crippled in the struggle, he received strength from God: as with the names He gives, it is; what the name implies.

It should be clear that this is not a name to be bestowed by men, as God has created and reserved it for His own special use. It should also be clear He retains the right to strip the name from whom He will, and for people to use this name when it is not of right, is stealing from the Almighty God!
Moses Prophesied:
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will call that person to account. Deuteronomy 18:18-19


This is a warning to heed the words of those appointed to the prophetic office, and in particular of Him who is the culmination and fulfilment of that office, Jesus of Nazareth.

Consider the destruction and exile that was brought on those, who with wicked hearts refused to “hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments… Deuteronomy 28:15

That promised destruction is shown in: “I will call them to account… to ancient Israel and the Jewish nation after Messiah appeared among them.
Peter, in quoting from this passage as he spoke to the people of Judah; “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:22-23

We have seen it specifically taken away from those of the House of Judah who, in the time of Christ and the apostles, refused to “hear that Prophet,” who rejected and killed Him. Jesus said: those born into the Kingdom [of Israel] will be thrown out and many from around the world will come and sit with the Patriarchs in the Kingdom of heaven. Matthew 8:11-12

God divided the nation, those who were His, and those who were not, even as aged Simeon prophesied over the infant Jesus in the temple.....many in Israel will stand or fall because of Him.....Luke 2:34, Isaiah 8:14-15

From this point on, many people of Israel gathered around their King, Messiah Jesus. Those who did not were “cut off” from the people by the conquest of Judea by the Romans. The Christians were able to escape to Pella.

Jesus Himself foretold this when He announced to the chief priests and elders of Israel, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43
Immediately prior to that statement He told them the same thing in the parable of the vineyard, there holding up a mirror to their motives and actions. Some of the priests, and a few Pharisees, did turn to Him.

The “identity theft” by a people of a mixture of ethnicities, whose only commonality was their religion of Judaism, was and is now, amazingly supported by some in the Community of faithful Christians, God’s authentic “holy nation”.
1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:10.

Many Christians promote the Jewish state as God’s Israel, His chosen people, despite their blatant apostasy, atheism, LGBT approval and their continuing rejection of Jesus and they insist on it, overlooking – or avoiding –God’s decree on the matter.
The reason they do this is because an immutable tenet of the ‘rapture to heaven of the Church’ doctrine, is the Jews remaining on earth, under Tribulation, while they sit in heaven. All utterly false teaching, that will never happen.

It is every faithful, born again Christian, all who follow the Way of Christ, Galatians 6:14-16 and are the Overcomers for Him, the Victorious ones over Satan, as seen in each of the seven Church’s of Revelation; who are the true Israel of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Genetic studies prove that Abrahams genes are ubiquitous, EVERYONE must have at least some of them.

Yes, all of the racial genes are mixed throughout the world. That's not the point. The point is that some, who likely are more closely related to Abraham genetically, have followed, as a people, the tradition of the Jewish People. And it is they who are promised a residence in the land of Israel. You need *all* these things--the racial identification and the tradition, as well as the ultimate residence in the land.

Carrying on traditions and where people live has nothing to do with their standing with God.

I don't agree. Carrying on the tradition helps to identify them as a people, descended from Abraham. That is also how the Scriptures refer to them, as a distinct, recognizable people, who are characterized as particularly resistant to the Gospel as a whole in the present age. It is this people who also will be done over at the coming of Christ, through the removal of a majority of wicked people who continue in their resistance, and by the elevation of the remnant that is willing to repent. Out of this smaller group God will rebuild a whole new nation, replete with all of the markings of a nation, inhabiting all of the land necessary to sustain the state.

IDENTITY THEFT: Stealing God’s Gift of a Name:
The identity under consideration is the title of “Israel.”...
It should be clear that this is not a name to be bestowed by men, as God has created and reserved it for His own special use. It should also be clear He retains the right to strip the name from whom He will, and for people to use this name when it is not of right, is stealing from the Almighty God!

This isn't clear to me. As I see it, the name God bestowed on Jacob was intended to be carried by his descendants who followed in his tradition in the land of Israel and united with the people of Israel. The name was not removed from people simply because unlike Jacob they gave up their faith in God.

When you talk about Jews who are "cut off" from the land of Israel, you are talking about judgment--not the removal of their name "Israel." When you talk about the Jews losing the Kingdom of God and forfeiting it to another nation, you are talking about the removal of a divinely-approve kingdom--not the removal of the name "Israel."

The Roman Empire converted to Christianity and were given divinely appointed kingdoms from that time forward. Israel's kingdom ceased to exist throughout the NT period. Nothing prevents the Jews from obtaining their divinely-accepted kingdom once again if they come to a place of repentance as a people.

Many Christians promote the Jewish state as God’s Israel, His chosen people, despite their blatant apostasy, atheism, LGBT approval and their continuing rejection of Jesus and they insist on it, overlooking – or avoiding –God’s decree on the matter.

Many Christians also join the world in their anti-Semitic spirit, focusing on the Jews' intransigence in many things, not the least of which is their resistance to the Gospel. The world sees this as racial self-centeredness and conspiratorial and greedy behavior. But at its heart is a lack of compassion on the Jewish plight and a lack of charity and willingness to offer grace to these people.

The reason they do this is because an immutable tenet of the ‘rapture to heaven of the Church’ doctrine, is the Jews remaining on earth, under Tribulation, while they sit in heaven. All utterly false teaching, that will never happen.

No, I've been telling you this for a long time now, brother. There are many non-Dispensationalists who believe in a Rapture to Heaven. I'm one of them. I don't believe that Paul indicated the Church will be "raptured" to the Middle East. Rather, the indication is a Rapture to Heaven.

 

[Keraz]

And it is they who are promised a residence in the land of Israel.

It is all Israel who are Promised the holy Land, not just Judah. Only a small remnant of Judah will join their brethren there. Jeremiah 50:4-5
I will give the Land to new owners:

Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.
The people who ‘won’t take correction and trust their Creator’, is the Jewish State of Israel.


The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.
Judah has been punished and exiled before; by Babylon and by Rome. But as Ezekiel 21:14 tells us, there will be a third time.

Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.
This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. Habakkuk 3:12 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +


Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practice evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.
This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9 and the amazing stories in Psalms 107.


Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12


Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.
On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.

Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.


This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.

It tells how Jerusalem, the holy Land is denigrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted and gone, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivors of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14
...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?

Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]


We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.
What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.
It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not be allowed to enter the Land of Israel.

In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage,
1 Corinthians 3:13-15

As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.

 

[Keraz]

I've been telling you this for a long time now, brother. There are many non-Dispensationalists who believe in a Rapture to Heaven. I'm one of them. I don't believe that Paul indicated the Church will be "raptured" to the Middle East. Rather, the indication is a Rapture to Heaven.

I reject the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church on scriptural grounds, as well as for logical and common sense reasons.
Our destiny is never to go to heaven; God has angels there, we are earth beings and we have God given tasks to do here.
God will finally have a people who believe in Him and keep His Commandments, in all of that area given so long ago to Abraham and his descendants, who have the faith he had. John sees them all there in Revelation 7:9

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is all Israel who are Promised the holy Land, not just Judah. Only a small remnant of Judah will join their brethren there. Jeremiah 50:4-5
I will give the Land to new owners...

Don't you realize this was a prophecy that God would make foreigners their landlords? God's punishment to Israel for turning to paganism was to bring pagans into their country as conquerors, and so be forced to submit to them and to endure their pagan ways.

The last time a major judgment has fallen upon the Jewish People in Israel was in 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and their temple. They had already been their "landlords."

And so, for the last 2000 years, the Jewish People have had to endure Christians and Muslims controlling their territory until today, the Jewish People have returned to their land.

God's promise to Abraham was that he would have a nation descended from him always. If the Jewish People do not return to the land of Israel, that promise has failed.

 

[Keraz]

Don't you realize this was a prophecy that God would make foreigners their landlords? God's punishment to Israel for turning to paganism was to bring pagans into their country as conquerors, and so be forced to submit to them and to endure their pagan ways.

There is no way the Zephaniah's prophesies have happened yet. There may have been partial fulfillments and types in the past, but did Zephaniah 3:14-17 take place then?
The new owners will be righteous, faithful peoples of God, who will include Christian Jews. Jeremiah 12:14

God's promise to Abraham was that he would have a nation descended from him always. If the Jewish People do not return to the land of Israel, that promise has failed.

God's Promise to the Patriarchs will be fulfilled by the people of faith, as Abraham was. Proved by Matthew 8:10-12

The whole issue of what is our destiny as Christians, has been colored by many wild and wonderful theories.
What is needed is to consider what it is that God wants, what is His purpose for us humans that He Created.
Is it for us to go and live in heaven or is it for us to be the guardians of the earth, Genesis 1:26, to be a Light for the nations and His witnesses, as Isaiah 49:3-6, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 tell us?
We have been given the Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20, that has not and never will be revoked.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is no way the Zephaniah's prophesies have happened yet. There may have been partial fulfillments and types in the past, but did Zephaniah 3:14-17 take place then?
The new owners will be righteous, faithful peoples of God, who will include Christian Jews. Jeremiah 12:14

I agree Zeph 3.14-17 is future. How does that support your argument? That passage simply establishes what I've been saying, that ultimately Israel will come back into their inheritance in the land of Israel.

God's Promise to the Patriarchs will be fulfilled by the people of faith, as Abraham was. Proved by Matthew 8:10-12

This is simply an invitation for people from other countries to enjoy the fellowship of Abraham's faith in the coming Kingdom. This is exactly what God promised Abraham, an inheritance of both Israel and many nations. The promise *did not* blur the distinction between the nations. Coming to enjoy a feast together is an invitation, and not a displacement!

 

[Keraz]

ultimately Israel will come back into their inheritance in the land of Israel.

The Jews are there now. Zechariah is not fulfilled by this return in apostasy. They are gathered for Judgment and punishment. Hosea 12:2, Ezekiel 22:17-22, Isaiah 10:17-22, Amos 8:1-10

This is simply an invitation for people from other countries to enjoy the fellowship of Abraham's faith in the coming Kingdom.

Matthew 8:10-12, clearly states that; those born to the Kingdom, the Jewish people, will be thrown out.
Jesus also stated; the Kingdom is taken from the Jews and given to a people who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
A general Jewish redemption is never said to happen in the Bible. Only a remnant of the Jews will survive the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Jews are there now. Zechariah is not fulfilled by this return in apostasy. They are gathered for Judgment and punishment. Hosea 12:2, Ezekiel 22:17-22, Isaiah 10:17-22, Amos 8:1-10

No, Zechariah's prophecy never meant to imply that Israel will be saved on behalf of the apostate. Rather, Israel is saved by judging the unworthy, and by forgiving the repentant.

Matthew 8:10-12, clearly states that; those born to the Kingdom, the Jewish people, will be thrown out.
Jesus also stated; the Kingdom is taken from the Jews and given to a people who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
A general Jewish redemption is never said to happen in the Bible. Only a remnant of the Jews will survive the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

Israel consists of both the worthless, who will be thrown out, and the repentant, who will be forgiven. This has happened several times in history, so that we should have no problem understanding that the same can happen at the end.

Each time, the nation arrives at a place where the majority are worthless, with a few still willing to repent. But ultimately, the worthless are removed, and the repentant rebuilt into a new nation.

In this case, it is Israel that is rebuilt--not the international Church. Israel becomes part of the international Church.

The nations invited to the banquet are known to be children of Abraham by faith, though they are not "Israel." Israel is the 1st of many nations to be fulfilled for Abraham. The purpose is to use Israel as the prototype, and then evolve into the many nations.

The fact many nations are invited to the feast indicates both Israel and the nations are restored from their backsliding at the coming of Christ, who will remove the impediments from all of these nations, referring to the worthless in all of these nations.

In any case, other nations coming to visit with Israel and to dine with them only means they eventually join together in faith. But their national distinctions are not lost, since God promised that these distinctions will at some point be completely fulfilled. And I believe that happens in the Millennium

 

[Truth7t7]

In any case, other nations coming to visit with Israel and to dine with them only means they eventually join together in faith. But their national distinctions are not lost, since God promised that these distinctions will at some point be completely fulfilled. And I believe that happens in the Millennium

Israel as a distinct ethnic people and nation will be invited to the marriage supper, and they will maintain their national distinction, and the church will join in faith with this distinct ethnic group you call Israel?

Sorta sounds like the two peoples of God teachings Jew/Church in dual covenant theology

God has one people (The Church) where there is neither Jew/Greek, your claims are not found in scripture, but would be found in the teachings of John N. Darby's dispensationalism, C.I. Scofield reference bible 1909, Dallas Theological, Biola

Those that attend the feast at the Marriage supper represent (The Church) the bride of Christ, where there is neither Jew/Greek

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.