will faith still be here?

[Truth7t7]

This is just never prophesied to happen.
Many scriptures say that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive.
In Zechariah 12:11-14, only a few remaining families will mourn for Jesus.

Zechariah 13:8KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree, there isnt a Christian Nation in this world

Many Nations might have more Christian's than others, but I cant see a christian Nation in this world, including America

And to claim this is a National salvation?

This is one of the most disconcerting comments that I regularly hear on the forums! No Christian nations...ever? A quick look at an encyclopedia will tell you there have been Christian nations.

However, I understand that you might accept that people refer to them as "Christian nations." You just don't accept that they really were Christian nations, right?

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is just never prophesied to happen.
Many scriptures say that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive.
In Zechariah 12:11-14, only a few remaining families will mourn for Jesus.

It's a matter of interpretation as to whether the "Jewish Hope" really exists in Jewish Scriptures. I know many Jews believe it does. Regardless, Israel went through a number of spiritual recoveries and national restorations. During the times of the judges Israel was regularly saved and restored. In the time of Ezra and Nehemiah not only was Jerusalem restored, but temple worship was restored also, and the people put away their pagan ways. If this has happened in the past, what prevents it from happening again at Christ's return? Don't you people a society can reform morally and spiritually?

 

[Keraz]

Zechariah 13:8KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

You have shown your devious and biased way of pushing your beliefs here, by leaving out Zechariah 13:9
Then I shall pass that third thru fire, I shall refine them as silver and gold is refined. [Remove the dross]
Those who remain; the small remnant of Judah, as many prophesies say, will then be a part of His people. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 50:4-5

It's a matter of interpretation as to whether the "Jewish Hope" really exists in Jewish Scriptures. I know many Jews believe it does. Regardless, Israel went through a number of spiritual recoveries and national restorations. During the times of the judges Israel was regularly saved and restored. In the time of Ezra and Nehemiah not only was Jerusalem restored, but temple worship was restored also, and the people put away their pagan ways. If this has happened in the past, what prevents it from happening again at Christ's return? Don't you people a society can reform morally and spiritually?

Your beliefs are colored by thinking the Jews are the only Israel.
That they are not is simply proved by how Israel is promised to be as many as the sands of the sea. An uncountable number; which the Jews are not and have never been.
The 10 Northern tribes, the House of Israel; have not yet rejoined with the House of Judah. Proved by how the Promises in Ezekiel 37:15-28, remain unfulfilled.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have shown your devious and biased way of pushing your beliefs here...

Are you being judgmental here? I don't feel I've either been deviant nor deliberately omitted anything as part of a strategy of reinforcing my position.

, by leaving out Zechariah 13:9
Then I shall pass that third thru fire, I shall refine them as silver and gold is refined. [Remove the dross]
Those who remain; the small remnant of Judah, as many prophesies say, will then be a part of His people. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 50:4-5

How is this even relevant? I've been saying repeatedly anywhere I speak of this that Israel is largely rebellious, as a nation, and will have to be judged and culled, before producing a truly repentant, restored nation.

Your beliefs are colored by thinking the Jews are the only Israel.
That they are not is simply proved by how Israel is promised to be as many as the sands of the sea. An uncountable number; which the Jews are not and have never been.
The 10 Northern tribes, the House of Israel; have not yet rejoined with the House of Judah. Proved by how the Promises in Ezekiel 37:15-28, remain unfulfilled.

The use of "uncountable number" is obviously bombastic in this. It is a reasonable facsimile of what God means when blessing people to overflowing. The Scriptures clearly show that it was, in fact, already fulfilled in a sense in the OT times.

It was used here in reference to a large gathering of Israel's enemies. Obviously, it wasn't literally an infinite number--just a number that would not ordinarily be counted by hand.

Josh 11.4 They came out with all their troops and a large number of horses and chariots—a huge army, as numerous as the sand on the seashore. 5 All these kings joined forces and made camp together at the Waters of Merom to fight against Israel.

Here is is used for Israel herself. This was during the time of King Solomon.

1 Kings 4.20 The people of Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand on the seashore; they ate, they drank and they were happy.

So the term itself seems overstated and exaggerated, though a case may be made that the Scriptures are referring, in context, to present methods of counting, which would be very limited in practice.

But the idea of a massive culling out of bad people from Israel may indeed result in only a third of the people remaining. How does that, then, prevent the third from repopulating and producing truly repentant people who wish to appropriate a Christian Constitution and start living in conformity with God's laws?

I think the Scriptures do express this. Isaiah, in particular, graphically portrays the Hope of Israel.

Isa 49.22 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
23 Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”

The point I've wished to make is that God made an eternal promise with Abraham to save the nation Israel. And each time Israel is judged and removed, God has determined to restore her. And I think this will happen again in the Millennium. Otherwise, I've been reading the promises of God very wrong!

 

[Truth7t7]

This is one of the most disconcerting comments that I regularly hear on the forums! No Christian nations...ever? A quick look at an encyclopedia will tell you there have been Christian nations.

However, I understand that you might accept that people refer to them as "Christian nations." You just don't accept that they really were Christian nations, right?

"Presently" there isnt a Christian Nation in this world as stated, that's my opinion

Were not looking in some encyclopedia or history book

Revelation 11:8 states Jerusalem will be like Sodom and Egypt at the second coming

Pretty hard to believe a person would even suggest a "National" people would be saved

How will this National Israel Be Chosen And Saved?

Citizenship in Israel?
Jewish bloodline in Israel?
Adherence to Judaism in Israel?

 

[Keraz]

Are you being judgmental here? I don't feel I've either been deviant nor deliberately omitted anything as part of a strategy of reinforcing my position.

My reply was to Truth7t7.

The point I've wished to make is that God made an eternal promise with Abraham to save the nation Israel. And each time Israel is judged and removed, God has determined to restore her. And I think this will happen again in the Millennium. Otherwise, I've been reading the promises of God very wrong!

The whole issue of Israel, is confused by a mixed race of people, who called themselves Zionists and formed a nation in the ME, called the Jewish State of Israel. That they are not the Israel of God is perfectly evident by their communistic agenda and their intransigent rejection of Jesus.
We KNOW who the true Israelites of God are; they are the ones who Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is never prophesied. Only a small remnant of them, those who have accepted Jesus now, will be saved and will join their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Ezekiel 37

 

[Truth7t7]

You have shown your devious and biased way of pushing your beliefs here, by leaving out Zechariah 13:9
Then I shall pass that third thru fire, I shall refine them as silver and gold is refined. [Remove the dross]
Those who remain; the small remnant of Judah, as many prophesies say, will then be a part of His people. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 50:4-5

Your beliefs are colored by thinking the Jews are the only Israel.
That they are not is simply proved by how Israel is promised to be as many as the sands of the sea. An uncountable number; which the Jews are not and have never been.
The 10 Northern tribes, the House of Israel; have not yet rejoined with the House of Judah. Proved by how the Promises in Ezekiel 37:15-28, remain unfulfilled.

I'm now devious and biased "Smiles"

Keraz, no I dont believe your teachings in British/Anglo Israelism, regarding the 10 tribes of Israel

Keraz, no there isnt going to be a 1,000 millennial kingdom on this earth, as you claim a 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, is seen "Between" verses 23/24 below, thats non-existant

As scripture clearly teaches at the return of Jesus Christ (Then Cometh The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Keraz Claims A 1,000 Year Kingdom Is Seen Here Between Verses 23/24

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Keraz]

I'm now devious and biased

That label belongs to anyone who just puts up half of the story, in one verse and omits the next one, which tells the full story.

Keraz, no I dont believe your teachings in British/Anglo Israelism, regarding the 10 tribes of Israel

But it is plain from many angles, that the House of Israel has not yet rejoined with the House of Judah.
They are the Christian peoples, the ones Jesus came to save.

Keraz, no there isnt going to be a 1,000 millennial kingdom on this earth,

You directly and knowingly oppose God's Word in Revelation 20.
Also in other scriptures where God promises the reward of an earthly reign to Jesus.

I am not the only one to see the 1000 year gap between 1 Cor 15:23 and 24. It is logical and to deny it, is to cause a Biblical anomaly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Presently" there isnt a Christian Nation in this world as stated, that's my opinion
Were not looking in some encyclopedia or history book

What on earth do you have against history? The Bible itself contains historical literature!

Revelation 11:8 states Jerusalem will be like Sodom and Egypt at the second coming

Pretty hard to believe a person would even suggest a "National" people would be saved

How do you think you and I got saved, as little angels? God brought pagans to salvation. That is the Gospel.

1 Cor 6.11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

How will this National Israel Be Chosen And Saved?

Citizenship in Israel?
Jewish bloodline in Israel?
Adherence to Judaism in Israel?

Again, these are different issues.
1) God saves nations from extinction and from enemy attacks. This is national salvation.
2) God pours out blessings on nations who enter into covenant relationship with Him. This is stated clearly in the book of Deuteronomy, ch. 28.
3) The covenant of Law, under Moses, has expired. Israel failed under that covenant, and it was not renewed. The New Covenant of Christ replaced that covenant. Eternal Life comes only by the Covenant of Christ. It never came through the covenant of Law.

It's plain that when a nation enters into covenant relationship with God, not every individual will be compliant. So the salvation of the nation happens when God acts on their behalf because they are in covenant relationship with Him. When enemies come against a nation like this, God *saves* them.

Israel has been in a state of dispersion since 70 AD. Even though the State is now in place, they have not yet entered into covenant relationship with God. Their salvation, therefore, will come when Christ comes to reestablish covenant relationship with Israel through their acceptance of him and his covenant. That will mean their final national salvation, even if not every individual will truly live by it and enter into spiritual salvation.

 

[Cassandra]

Kinda unfair to the Israelites who have died before this time when Christ is supposed to reestablish the covenant. Those that die today, yesterday and before are just outta luck. I do not believe for a minute that genealogy will play a role in salvation.

Matt 11:33-43
“33 Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’a]">[a]?

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Kinda unfair to the Israelites who have died before this time when Christ is supposed to reestablish the covenant. Those that die today, yesterday and before are just outta luck. I do not believe for a minute that genealogy will play a role in salvation.

Matt 11:33-43
“33 Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’a]">[a]?

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Rather, the question is: why shouldn't genealogy play a role in Salvation? For example, if you live a clean life, and produce the fruits of righteousness, why shouldn't God give you children of faith?

I don't know what you mean by "unfair" to those outside of the covenant? The covenant of Law was never meant to bring eternal life--just blessings until Christ brought that for those with faith.

 

[Truth7t7]

1) God saves nations from extinction and from enemy attacks. This is national salvation.
2) God pours out blessings on nations who enter into covenant relationship with Him. This is stated clearly in the book of Deuteronomy, ch. 28.
3) The covenant of Law, under Moses, has expired. Israel failed under that covenant, and it was not renewed. The New Covenant of Christ replaced that covenant. Eternal Life comes only by the Covenant of Christ. It never came through the covenant of Law.

It's plain that when a nation enters into covenant relationship with God, not every individual will be compliant. So the salvation of the nation happens when God acts on their behalf because they are in covenant relationship with Him. When enemies come against a nation like this, God *saves* them.

Israel has been in a state of dispersion since 70 AD. Even though the State is now in place, they have not yet entered into covenant relationship with God. Their salvation, therefore, will come when Christ comes to reestablish covenant relationship with Israel through their acceptance of him and his covenant. That will mean their final national salvation, even if not every individual will truly live by it and enter into spiritual salvation.

Your definition of "Salvation" is out in left field, the is no such thing as "National" salvation as you claim

Ephesians 2:8-9KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 10:9KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Keraz]

Israel has been in a state of dispersion since 70 AD. Even though the State is now in place, they have not yet entered into covenant relationship with God. Their salvation, therefore, will come when Christ comes to reestablish covenant relationship with Israel through their acceptance of him and his covenant. That will mean their final national salvation, even if not every individual will truly live by it and enter into spiritual salvation.

Why grip onto unscriptural error?

The children of ethnic Israel are not the children of God. Only the believers of the promised Seed are the children of God. The children of the flesh are those who have denied Jesus Christ, following the wrong paths, the children of the promise are the only ones who have the Holy Spirit anointing in their lives and their birthright in God. Romans 9:8

Most Jews may have descent which comes from their lineage of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. But when they turned from their true inheritance and embraced the Babylonian Talmud, they lost their birthright in God.

Jesus came to redeem the lost sheep of the House of Israel, the Northern 10 tribes.
But we know from the whole message of the New Testament, that salvation is open to people of every race, nation and language, who believe in Him. John 3:16

Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people.
Jesus came to bring redemption to the sons of Judah, but instead they cried out, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"
The Jews have suffered the consequence of this rejection ever since.

When Jesus spoke of Israel, it was always in the positive. When He spoke of the Jews, it was always in the negative. The separation that happened in King Rehoboam’s time still remains to this day. The great spiritual and physical rejoining of Christian Israel and Messianic Jewry, prophesied in Ezekiel 37, awaits fulfilment.

When Jesus walked the earth those who were His enemies were the religious Jews. There were three main sects of the Jewish religion: the Sadducees, the Pharisees and the Herodians:
The Sadducees were the keepers of the ancient laws.
The name Sadducee means "righteous." They did not believe in the resurrection of the body, nor did they believe in retribution in a future life. The Jewish priests embraced the Sadducee's religion.

The name Pharisee means "separatist." The main tenets of this religion is that the soul will never perish and the wicked will be punished with eternal torment. In other words, they believe the lie the serpent spoke to Eve in the garden that "Ye shall not surely die." The scribes embraced the Pharisee's religion.

The Herodians were those who loved the Greek way of life and followed the dictates of Herod (secular government). They did not adhere to the Jewish law. Their only loyalties were to Rome.

These same three beliefs have infiltrated the church system today. The religious Sadducees today, no matter what name they go by, still want to keep the old law. They keep the Sabbath, observe the ritualistic holidays and dietary laws.

The religious Pharisees are those who are separatists, teaching the eternal lost soul of the wicked, believing they are the only righteous ones, and have made doctrines and creeds to live by. If their people go to any other church, they are reprimanded.

The religious Herodians are those who think mankind can bring about a utopian society by their own efforts and shun all teaching of righteousness with their "if it feels good do it" attitude, but still maintain their belief in a God. Call ‘him’ Gaia or ‘her’ Mother Earth, they all follow ancient paths of Satanic deceit.


Matthew 23:13-15 But woe unto you, scribes, Pharisees, all hypocrites! For ye shut up the Kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

This certainly describes the modern Jews who have closed up the Kingdom of God to their people. As Jesus stated they would not be enter in themselves, and they hinder all those who are entering into the Kingdom realm.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Cassandra]

Rather, the question is: why shouldn't genealogy play a role in Salvation? For example, if you live a clean life, and produce the fruits of righteousness, why shouldn't God give you children of faith?

No. You cant possibly believe that. You are told to raise up faithful children. Prov 22:6


Look at the history of Israel. Look at the Kings. You have bad ones with good children, and good ones with bad children.

There is a whole chapter in Ezekiel about this and it is the LORD speaking:

Eze 18:1-22
" The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.



"But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,


6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live."


20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live."

And there's more in that chapter. He mentions Israel.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?


30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your definition of "Salvation" is out in left field, the is no such thing as "National" salvation as you claim

Ephesians 2:8-9KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 10:9KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You are here just referencing "spiritual salvation," which consists of faith in the present spiritual life of Christ in our lives and hope for a future resurrection to immortality with Christ. You completely ignore my reference to "national salvation," denying that it exists even when there are a *massive number* of references to it in the Scriptures, and even though I specifically referred you to Deut 28.

God absolutely promised national deliverance from their enemies if Israel chose to live in covenant relationship with Himself. Denying that is like claiming to believe in a Flat Earth. All you need to do is "get out your telescope" and recognize, *the Scriptures do speak of God saving nations from their enemies.*

This is based on a spiritual relationship with God through covenant, but it involves a distinct other kind of "salvation" as well, namely national deliverance from their enemies. Denying that is like denying the sun will come up in the morning.

I suppose what may confuse this double sense of "salvation" is the fact that in the Bible both concepts of "salvation" are connected and related. When Israel chose to live in covenant relationship with God then they could experience both national deliverance from their enemies and the hope of ultimate spiritual redemption.

They are connected, but they are distinct and different. A nation can be mercifully delivered, or "saved," from their enemies apart from a covenant relationship with God. But this then would de-couple any hope in a spiritual salvation, as well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. You cant possibly believe that. You are told to raise up faithful children. Prov 22:6

Yes, I do believe that.

Acts 16.31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

This man accepted Christ, and Paul prophesied that his entire family would also accept Christ. There is a reason that Paul was given to foretell the salvation of an entire family--not because it always happens, and not because we can make that happy, but only because quite often the apple doesnot fall far from the tree.

God rewards men and women of faith with children or grandchildren who have faith, as well. Even if the children choose not to follow their parents in faith, God will raise up grandchildren or great grandchildren who will provide a continuation of faith in the family line. It was God's explicit promise to Abraham, and you shouldn't ignore that!

I'm not denying all that you're saying. It's true that free will plays an essential role in our salvation. We must choose Christ as our life and Savior. We can't do it for our children--they must do it themselves. But the character of children is spawned by our own faith, acting in concert with God's word. That is what produces children of faith.

Once children are born with a good spiritual inheritance, it is up to them to choose to live by that good character or not. They must do it themselves--we cannot do it for them!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why grip onto unscriptural error?
The children of ethnic Israel are not the children of God. Only the believers of the promised Seed are the children of God. The children of the flesh are those who have denied Jesus Christ, following the wrong paths, the children of the promise are the only ones who have the Holy Spirit anointing in their lives and their birthright in God. Romans 9:8

We have been arguing this a long time, and a lot of our problem is that you mischaracterize my argument. I'm not denying that Jews proved that race does not equal being "God's People." Clearly, they failed on many occasions to represent "faith."

And I'm not saying that non-Christians Jews represent God's true people. Rather, I'm saying that God promised He will bring about national salvation for the Jews *in the future.*

Presently there are only a relative few among the Jews who embrace Christ as their Savior. But in the future, I believe the Jews will once again be brought to their knees. Most will likely be judged and removed by God.

But God has promised, I believe, to start again with a small remnant of repentant Jews and restore the entire State of Israel. Although never will every individual Jew properly embrace Christ I do think the entire State will adopt a Christian Constitution, once again entering into a "new covenant" with God.

Most Jews may have descent which comes from their lineage of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. But when they turned from their true inheritance and embraced the Babylonian Talmud, they lost their birthright in God.

Jesus came to redeem the lost sheep of the House of Israel, the Northern 10 tribes.
But we know from the whole message of the New Testament, that salvation is open to people of every race, nation and language, who believe in Him. John 3:16

This is where we look at the details differently. I think the 10 tribes are gone from history because they turned to idols, just as the Jews today have determined, as a people and as a religion, to reject Jesus as their Messiah. It will cause most of the Jews to disappear from history at the end of the age, as well.

But small numbers of Hebrews from all 12 tribes eventually migrated to and coalesced into the Jewish Kingdom, later called Judea. Just because it resembled and included many of those from the tribe of Judah doesn't mean they were strictly from the southern Kingdom! Calling them "Jews" did not mean they were strictly from the tribes of Benjamin and Judah!

The eventual restoration of the Jews to Israel in the time of Nehemiah meant the salvation of all 12 tribes. That is why, I believe, all 12 tribes are mentioned in Rev 7, because God is always preserving a remnant of faith to represent the fulfillment of all 12 tribes, now merged together as the "Jewish People."

When Jesus spoke of Israel, it was always in the positive. When He spoke of the Jews, it was always in the negative.

It may appear like this because the Gospel and our NT Bible came at a time when the Jews were at their worst, and when the hope of their national salvation, ie Israel, was about to be destroyed for the next 2000 years! This did not mean that Jews who turned to faith in Christ were always spoken of in the negative! And I think the Scriptures speak positively about "Israel" because their hope never diminishes. No matter how far the Jews fall as a people, God will always find a few to restart the hope.

The separation that happened in King Rehoboam’s time still remains to this day. The great spiritual and physical rejoining of Christian Israel and Messianic Jewry, prophesied in Ezekiel 37, awaits fulfilment.

When Jesus walked the earth those who were His enemies were the religious Jews. There were three main sects of the Jewish religion: the Sadducees, the Pharisees and the Herodians:
The Sadducees were the keepers of the ancient laws.
The name Sadducee means "righteous." They did not believe in the resurrection of the body, nor did they believe in retribution in a future life. The Jewish priests embraced the Sadducee's religion.

The name Pharisee means "separatist." The main tenets of this religion is that the soul will never perish and the wicked will be punished with eternal torment. In other words, they believe the lie the serpent spoke to Eve in the garden that "Ye shall not surely die." The scribes embraced the Pharisee's religion.

The Herodians were those who loved the Greek way of life and followed the dictates of Herod (secular government). They did not adhere to the Jewish law. Their only loyalties were to Rome.

These same three beliefs have infiltrated the church system today. The religious Sadducees today, no matter what name they go by, still want to keep the old law. They keep the Sabbath, observe the ritualistic holidays and dietary laws.

The religious Pharisees are those who are separatists, teaching the eternal lost soul of the wicked, believing they are the only righteous ones, and have made doctrines and creeds to live by. If their people go to any other church, they are reprimanded.

The religious Herodians are those who think mankind can bring about a utopian society by their own efforts and shun all teaching of righteousness with their "if it feels good do it" attitude, but still maintain their belief in a God. Call ‘him’ Gaia or ‘her’ Mother Earth, they all follow ancient paths of Satanic deceit.

I found that interesting! Thanks brother. I do think those elements are problems in the Church today, just as they were among the Jews. There are the legalists and the traditionalists. There are those who are judgmental and schismatic. And there are the liberals, who compromise with the world. I don't know if that's how you'd put it, but it works for me!

 

[Keraz]

I'm not denying that Jews do not become God's true people simply due to their race. And I'm not saying that non-Christians Jews represent God's true people.

Good start. If a little convoluted!
We are plainly told that race has nothing to do with Salvation. Ephesians 2:1-18

But God has promised, I believe, to start again with a small remnant of repentant Jews and restore the entire State of Israel. Although never will every individual Jew properly embrace Christ I do think the entire State will adopt a Christian Constitution, once against entering into a "new covenant" with God.

There is no Promise like this for the Jews; the House of Judah, anywhere in the Bible.
But there is for the House of Israel, the 10 Northern tribes; the peoples that Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24
That statement of Jesus, was very telling and has come true as the majority of Christians today are descended from the 10 Tribes.
Yair Davidy, in his BritAm website, has some very interesting information as to where each tribe went and their reception of the Blessings promised by Jacob and Moses.

I see Ezekiel 20:33-38 as one of the most informative prophesies in the Bible.
The Lord will gather ALL the Israelite peoples and Judge them. Only the faithful believers will be allowed to enter the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

I think the 10 tribes are gone from history because they turned to idols,

Right! As they; we, have done. Ezekiel 20:39-44
We will remember all our past conduct and will loath ourselves for our unrighteous ways. THEN we will know the Lord, as He deals with us as the honor of His Name demands. Ezekiel 20:43-44

he Gospel and our NT Bible came at a time when the Jews were at their worst

Have they changed? I think not.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are here just referencing "spiritual salvation," which consists of faith in the present spiritual life of Christ in our lives and hope for a future resurrection to immortality with Christ. You completely ignore my reference to "national salvation," denying that it exists even when there are a *massive number* of references to it in the Scriptures, and even though I specifically referred you to Deut 28.

God absolutely promised national deliverance from their enemies if Israel chose to live in covenant relationship with Himself. Denying that is like claiming to believe in a Flat Earth. All you need to do is "get out your telescope" and recognize, *the Scriptures do speak of God saving nations from their enemies.*

This is based on a spiritual relationship with God through covenant, but it involves a distinct other kind of "salvation" as well, namely national deliverance from their enemies. Denying that is like denying the sun will come up in the morning.

I suppose what may confuse this double sense of "salvation" is the fact that in the Bible both concepts of "salvation" are connected and related. When Israel chose to live in covenant relationship with God then they could experience both national deliverance from their enemies and the hope of ultimate spiritual redemption.

They are connected, but they are distinct and different. A nation can be mercifully delivered, or "saved," from their enemies apart from a covenant relationship with God. But this then would de-couple any hope in a spiritual salvation, as well.

There isnt one scripture in the bible that promises a "National Salvation" for a nation "Israel" upon this earth, I'm waiting for you scripture to support your claims?