will faith still be here?

[Truth7t7]

To be sure, it will not be *all* the Jews. Rather, he will regather those willing to accept him at his coming to restore the nation based on their repentance and their faith. Paul describes this in Rom 11. And Jesus assumes this in Acts 1.

Thanks for the response Randy

You state a National Israel will be restored as described in Roman's 11?

Scripture clearly teaches "Israel Hath Not Obtained" below, Randy states Israel will obtain?

Randy when the "Remnant Elect" Jew, those whom God foreknew are called and saved they become (Church) no National Etnic Israel is seen any longer, they are (Church) where there is neither Jew/Greek

Romans 11:2 & 7-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear : ) unto this day.

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

I and my wife; go to an Elim Church on Sunday's. Which for me is the seventh day, as Monday is the first day of the week.

In all my writings, I do assuredly account for a dramatically changed future!

Again you insist in calling Judah; Israel. The kingdom Herod and his successors presided over, was Judah.
The Kingdom referred to in Matthew 21:43, is the Kingdom of God. The Spiritual Kingdom.

What the Bible Prophets teach, is a complete reshuffle of the worlds peoples into 10 divisions, each presided over by a Governor. Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12-13
But as we are told in those prophesies, one man will rise to control all of them, a world dictator. The new Christian nation in all of the holy Land, will be conquered by him. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:5-8
He will remain in power for 3 1/2 years, but will be severely tried by the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls and at the Seventh Bowl, his armies will be destroyed and Jesus will Return. Revelation 16:12-18

Thanks for the response

You observe Sunday, I disagree that Monday is the first day of the week, Sunsay is, even secular society recognizes Sunday as the first day of the week

No need for a drawn out discussion, we disagree

Matthew 28:1KJV
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In all my writings, I do assuredly account for a dramatically changed future!

I was saying that when you insist that Israel's Salvation must be *Christian,* I'm saying you don't account for the possibility that it may take place *in the future.* I didn't say you have no sense of the future at all!

Again you insist in calling Judah; Israel. The kingdom Herod and his successors presided over, was Judah.
The Kingdom referred to in Matthew 21:43, is the Kingdom of God. The Spiritual Kingdom.

You forget that I answered that. I quoted Isaiah when he spoke to Israel, the Northern Kingdom, along with Judah, the Southern Kingdom. Both were given the national promise, "never again" to their enemies.

And I reminded you that God's promise to Abraham was originally to *one nation*--not two kingdoms. The two kingdoms were to be *joined*--not one surviving and the other cast aside and turned into something else later.

But we're just repeating ourselves, aren't we?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for the response Randy

You state a National Israel will be restored as described in Roman's 11?

Scripture clearly teaches "Israel Hath Not Obtained" below, Randy states Israel will obtain?

Randy when the "Remnant Elect" Jew, those whom God foreknew are called and saved they become (Church) no National Etnic Israel is seen any longer, they are (Church) where there is neither Jew/Greek

That is one way you can interpret it, which is Replacement Theology. Doesn't happen to be my cup of tea. Since this argument has been continuing for quite awhile, I doubt we'll solve it.

Romans 11:2 & 7-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear : ) unto this day.

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The point is, Jewish fidelity was based on *both* the race and the attention to the requirements of faith. Without the race, you don't have a people having the faith. And without the fidelity, you don't have the people being who God wanted them to be.

There is nothing wrong with race. God created the races. He began with the Jews, but He doesn't stop dealing with Jews just because they are a race.

All Paul is saying is that fidelity isn't a racial thing. All races can be faithful. Nor is race a thing that guarantees fidelity. Each individual is responsible to be faithful.

Just because a nation falls into infidelity doesn't mean that all become unfaithful, nor does it mean that the majority cannot repent and return to fidelity as a people. Israel, according to prophecy, will be made a righteous people again. They just haven't gotten there yet, and won't get there until final judgment falls upon their nation.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is one way you can interpret it, which is Replacement Theology. Doesn't happen to be my cup of tea. Since this argument has been continuing for quite awhile, I doubt we'll solve it.



The point is, Jewish fidelity was based on *both* the race and the attention to the requirements of faith. Without the race, you don't have a people having the faith. And without the fidelity, you don't have the people being who God wanted them to be.

There is nothing wrong with race. God created the races. He began with the Jews, but He doesn't stop dealing with Jews just because they are a race.

All Paul is saying is that fidelity isn't a racial thing. All races can be faithful. Nor is race a thing that guarantees fidelity. Each individual is responsible to be faithful.

Just because a nation falls into infidelity doesn't mean that all become unfaithful, nor does it mean that the majority cannot repent and return to fidelity as a people. Israel, according to prophecy, will be made a righteous people again. They just haven't gotten there yet, and won't get there until final judgment falls upon their nation.

We have went full circle with the term "National Salvation" and ended up right where I claimed, in Roman's 11

Your claims of "National Salvation" are silenced in the fact of scripture below, "Israel" as a "Nation" will not obtain as you claim

Scripture clearly teaches "Israel Hath Not Obtained" below, Randy states Israel will obtain?

Randy when the "Remnant Elect" Jew, those whom God foreknew are called and saved they become (Church) no National Etnic Israel is seen any longer, they are (Church) where there is neither Jew/Greek

Romans 11:2 & 7-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear : ) unto this day.

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Oseas]

Ah, the standard "Baptist"/"Pentehostile" response to the Charismatic Outpouring (1966-1978, or so), that transitioned into the "Charismatic movement" in the late '70s/early '80s. The Pentecostals weren't fond of it either, since it wasn't "Clothesline Holy" enough for them.

It caught the Catholics by surprise, though, when their people started speaking in tongues, and many were getting Born AGain of the Holy SPirit. The parish priests in Ohio were inviting Protestant Pentecostals in to teach their people about the Holy Spirit. during the '70s and there was a GREAT HUNGER for the Word of God among them, and among the "Liberal Denominations".

Greetings in Christ JESUS

What do you think if we take a deep look at this supposed satanic "Pentecostal" spiritual manifestation? I suppose you know that the followers of the Roman Catholic Church-the Great Whore-which rides upon the Beast of sea- a Gentile Beast-the Pope, the Papacy, yeah, the followers of the RCC worship and invoke the dead for personal protection, like Mary, mother of JESUS, and also the apostles and, IN PARALLEL, the RCC, through the Beast their main guide, canonized, beatified, also specific people, fervent Catholics, children of the Devil-even demons, and not children of God, who apparently practiced "good works" as the disguised and hypocrite Madre Teresa among many others, it according to criteria and dogmas of the idolatrous and satanic Catholic Curia, hundreds of idols of the dead were created within the RCC to be invoked for protection and to be worshipped too by the followers of the Beast of sea and of the woman-the great Whore, which rides upon the Beast.

OK. What do the religious and satanic picture above describes for us?

It describes that the followers of the Roman Catholic Churh worhip and invoke the dead, like the spiritists in their demonic cults or demonic religious services. In fact, the idolater and satanic Catholicism is a disguised and demoniac spiritism.

That said, we can identify how that satanic phenomena occurred or still may occur in the main guide of the RCC, the Beast of sea-the Pope-the Papacy-, and in their idolater followers. Of the same manner that a spirit of the demon speaks by the MOUTH of a spiritist in their cults, a spirit of the devil, disguised, also speaks by the MOUTH of the Pope-the Papacy-or one follower of the Beast, even in supposed "tongues/linguas", apparently similar to a true Pentecostal believer, but is from deceiver and SATANIC spirit, a manifestation of a spirit of demon among the followers of the RCC, as dead's invokers.

Revelation 16:v.13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty. - The LORD's Day -

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Be careful, be careful.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture clearly teaches "Israel Hath Not Obtained" below, Randy states Israel will obtain?

Yes, that's what Scripture claims, that the race/nation that "has not obtained" will indeed obtain it. First, the elect remnant obtain it. And then the nation as a whole will obtain national deliverance from their enemies...finally.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, that's what Scripture claims, that the race/nation that "has not obtained" will indeed obtain it. First, the elect remnant obtain it. And then the nation as a whole will obtain national deliverance from their enemies...finally.

Scripture teaches that the chosen "Remnant" elect become part of the "Church"

Scripture teaches that "Israel" will not obtain salvation, and that God has given them a spirit of slumber, closed eyes and ears

Your claim that a "National" Israel is seen and exist is false, only the "Remnant" elect Church is seen, they obtain salvation through Jesus Christ, and become part of the "Church" where there isnt Jew/Greek, let alone a "National" status

Problem is, you want to maintain racial and national separation inside the church, it's called (Dual Covenant Theology) in two peoples of God, Jew/Church, a teaching not found in scripture

No place in scripture does it teach of a future "Nation" of Israel being protected by God, it's just the opposite as seen In Luke 21:22-23 below

Luke 21:22-23KJV
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Romans 11:2 & 7-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear : ) unto this day.

Romans 11:2 & 7-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear : ) unto this day.

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Oseas]

Greetings in Christ JESUS

What do you think if we take a deep look at this supposed satanic "Pentecostal" spiritual manifestation? I suppose you know that the followers of the Roman Catholic Church-the Great Whore-which rides upon the Beast of sea- a Gentile Beast-the Pope, the Papacy, yeah, the followers of the RCC worship and invoke the dead for personal protection, like Mary, mother of JESUS, and also the apostles and, IN PARALLEL, the RCC, through the Beast their main guide, canonized, beatified, also specific people, fervent Catholics, children of the Devil-even demons, and not children of God, who apparently practiced "good works" as the disguised and hypocrite Madre Teresa among many others, it according to criteria and dogmas of the idolatrous and satanic Catholic Curia, hundreds of idols of the dead were created within the RCC to be invoked for protection and to be worshipped too by the followers of the Beast of sea and of the woman-the great Whore, which rides upon the Beast.

OK. What do the religious and satanic picture above describes for us?

It describes that the followers of the Roman Catholic Churh worhip and invoke the dead, like the spiritists in their demonic cults or demonic religious services. In fact, the idolater and satanic Catholicism is a disguised and demoniac spiritism.

That said, we can identify how that satanic phenomena occurred or still may occur in the main guide of the RCC, the Beast of sea-the Pope-the Papacy-, and in their idolater followers. Of the same manner that a spirit of the demon speaks by the MOUTH of a spiritist in their cults, a spirit of the devil, disguised, also speaks by the MOUTH of the Pope-the Papacy-or one follower of the Beast, even in supposed "tongues/linguas", apparently similar to a true Pentecostal believer, but is from deceiver and SATANIC spirit, a manifestation of a spirit of demon among the followers of the RCC, as dead's invokers.

Revelation 16:v.13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty. - The LORD's Day -

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Be careful, be careful.

Revelation 21:v.6-8.CJB
“It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To anyone who is thirsty I myself will give water free of charge from the Fountain of Life. 7 He who wins the victory will receive these things, and I will be his GOD, and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the untrustworthy, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those involved with the OCCULT and with drugs, idol-worshippers, and all liars — their destiny is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, the second death.”

God will not withdraw/revoke His anger/wrath, ...Job 9:v.13

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Roman Catholic Church-the Great Whore-which rides upon the Beast of sea- a Gentile Beast-the Pope, the Papacy, yeah, the followers of the RCC worship and invoke the dead for personal protection, like Mary, mother of JESUS, and also the apostles and, IN PARALLEL, the RCC, through the Beast their main guide, canonized, beatified, also specific people, fervent Catholics, children of the Devil-even demons, and not children of God, who apparently practiced "good works" as the disguised and hypocrite Madre Teresa among many others, it according to criteria and dogmas of the idolatrous and satanic Catholic Curia, hundreds of idols of the dead were created within the RCC to be invoked for protection and to be worshipped too by the followers of the Beast of sea and of the woman-the great Whore, which rides upon the Beast.

Chuckle!!!! It appears that you may not be real fond of the Catholic churches. Neither am I.

HOWEVER, whether you like it or not, God by His Holy Spirit DOES reach people IN the Catholic churches, Convict them of their sin, and bring them into Repentance and FAITH as born again believers. Some Leave Catholicism for more accurate church systems, and some stay in as missionaries to their fellow Catholics.

The Charismatic Outpouring was a World Wide Spiritual Phenomenon (A Season of refreshing) which DIDN'T start in the Catholic Churches, but did effect them greatly. The Outpouring hit Notre Dame University like a ton of bricks, and led to Prayer meetings, repentance, people getting Born Again, and being "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" (to use AG vernacular).

 

[Timtofly]

A brother posted that he thinks most Christians will be killed off by the time of Antichrist's reign, whether by war, natural disasters, or persecution. I don't know what his position is on the timing of the Rapture of the Church.

I find that interesting not because I 100% agree with it, but because it allows me to improve my position somewhat. Of course, this is theoretical, because the future is hard to know with any precision.

I'm not Pretrib, so I don't accept that the international Church is removed from the earth during the last 3.5 years of the age. But I do agree that the vast majority of Christians will be gone by that time from other causes. As Christians become less and less popular with the waning of Christian civilization, there will be relatively few who will be raptured alive at the end of the age.

Think of Elijah who was raptured to heaven. He was only one person in Israel who went missing. Only a few missed him.

Similarly, at the end of the age there will be relatively few Christians among the nations, I think. And when Christ comes back, those few he takes up to heaven will hardly be missed!

Israel is the template for all this. It was the nation who developed the pattern that we now see among all Christian nations. The baton was passed from Israel to the Roman Empire--think: "the Kingdom will be taken from Israel and given to a nation worthy of it."

So just as Israel was worthy at one time, so in the present age many European nations have been worthy in the past. But as Israel fell away, so now many Christian nations are turning to apostasy.

And so, just like the multitudes initially followed Jesus and then turned away, learning how unpopular the cross was, so now the multitudes of Christians in Christian nations have now been turning away from Christianity due to its unpopularity in the world. And I do think the vast numbers of Christians are dwindling in our time.

Yes, many are Christian in name only, just as in Jesus' time, Jews were God's Chosen in name only. What we're seeing is a fulfillment, I think, of what Jesus said: "when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

What this means to me is that even though we're seeing the beginning of the end of Christian civilization in the present age, there are still way too many Christians for things to go completely south yet. There is still room for ministry.

And we should encourage one another to remain faithful as we see many fall away due to the unpopularity of the message of the cross. When the Rapture of the Church finally takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, there will likely be relatively few Christians noticed who are "missing."

When Christ comes, the nations, including Israel, will show fear at the coming of the Son of Man in judgment from heaven. They will be ashamed of their ways, and will suffer great remorse for their hardness of hearts.

But Christ's Coming will open up the door for renewal in the world, both for Israel and for the nations. Christian Civilization will, I think, be restarted.

Why is faith only apparent after the Cross?

Why is faith even equated to sinful humanity?

Faith is the exercise of freely trusting in God not knowing the results. Faith is not being coerced into doing something. Belief is acquired coercion.

Abel had faith because he obeyed God, not really knowing God preferred his offering more than his brothers, even though he was killed out of jealousy.

Noah had faith and obediently built an ark. Even if the Flood never came, Noah still obeyed God.

We see in Hebrews 11 what faith is.

But there does not have to be a church on earth for there to literally be faith. You have the wrong definition of faith. Christians have a belief. The church is obedient to God not knowing the outcome. So the church can be gone, yet still humans can still obey God. In fact those who, out of faith, have their head chopped off, will avoid receiving the mark. They will not be removed from the Lamb's book of life in just that simple act of faith, ie beheaded. They will then no longer be physically on the earth to live out that faith. They will have to wait for the resurrection in Revelation 20:4. So even then faith won't be "on the earth", because the only act of faith is physical death. It is not faith if one is still walking around with a head, thinking about eventually chopping their head off, because that will not work. So there will not be any faith, because the only faith God recognizes is an act leading to physical death.

Now there will be many who retain their belief while still accepting the mark, so belief is not the same as faith. They are just decieved in their belief, and have no faith that comes from obedience to God.

 

[Keraz]

Yes, that's what Scripture claims, that the race/nation that "has not obtained" will indeed obtain it. First, the elect remnant obtain it. And then the nation as a whole will obtain national deliverance from their enemies...finally.

But this belief contradicts what the Bible prophets say.
It will be the 'nation' which bears the proper fruit who will be delivered from their enemies. As Ezekiel 38-39 says.

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is widely taught because it is an essential part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Neither theory is prophesied to happen and we are told to stand firm in our faith thru all that must happen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why is faith only apparent after the Cross?

It isn't. Faith existed before the Cross, and it exists after the Cross. Faith in Jesus' atonement, however, could only take place after the Cross, obviously.

Why is faith even equated to sinful humanity?

I don't know what this means? Jesus had faith, and he wasn't sinful. So I don't equate faith only with sinful humanity.

Faith is the exercise of freely trusting in God not knowing the results. Faith is not being coerced into doing something. Belief is acquired coercion.

I don't define faith strictly this way. Yes, sometimes you don't know the results, but sometimes you do. Abraham marched out in faith, not knowing what land he was heading to. But others later were told what land they were to inherit, and even when Israel was captive down in Egypt, they could exercise faith that they would inherit what they were told they could have. In other words, they knew the results of faith in this case.

I define faith more simply than this, because it is more inclusive. Faith is our acquiescence to God's word to our conscience. We choose to accept what God is saying to us. The word of God produces faith in us when we believe what it is saying, and accept doing it as our responsibility.

Abel had faith because he obeyed God, not really knowing God preferred his offering more than his brothers, even though he was killed out of jealousy.

I have no idea whether Abel knew his offering was preferred and his brother's not.

Noah had faith and obediently built an ark. Even if the Flood never came, Noah still obeyed God.

Noah was obeying because he *knew* the Flood was coming--not just to obey regardless of whether the Flood came or not! He accepted God's word that it was coming as a judgment against sin. So Noah exercised his faith by continuing to model his life after the image of God, and do what God said he must do to survive.

We see in Hebrews 11 what faith is.

Yes, faith is the acceptance of all that God has to say to us. By accepting what God says, we recognize who God is and what we must be like, having been created in His image.

But there does not have to be a church on earth for there to literally be faith.

Why would you even say such a thing? God wanted many churches on earth. And so, faith would grasp this and cooperate with this plan. Each individual must have his or her own faith. But collectively, the church makes up many individuals who have faith and who can share in the experience of faith. That collective experience helps us to avoid pitfalls, grow in knowledge, and successfully display all that God wants us to display. And God wishes to display His diversity in many different people, all encompassed by many churches.

You have the wrong definition of faith. Christians have a belief. The church is obedient to God not knowing the outcome. So the church can be gone, yet still humans can still obey God.

Non-Christians can believe in God, and even if they don't believe in God they can obey the inner voice of their conscience. They can unwittingly be obeying some elements of God's word.

But "faith," as most Christians use the term, is applied only by the Christian when he accepts the whole counsel of God, accepting His Son, and choosing to be led by the Holy Spirit. I'm happy when non-Christians choose to live moral lives. But that doesn't get them saved.

In fact those who, out of faith, have their head chopped off, will avoid receiving the mark. They will not be removed from the Lamb's book of life in just that simple act of faith, ie beheaded. They will then no longer be physically on the earth to live out that faith. They will have to wait for the resurrection in Revelation 20:4. So even then faith won't be "on the earth", because the only act of faith is physical death. It is not faith if one is still walking around with a head, thinking about eventually chopping their head off, because that will not work. So there will not be any faith, because the only faith God recognizes is an act leading to physical death.

I think you have a very convoluted definition of faith. Sorry, I'm sticking to faith comes by hearing the word of God. That may apply in the time of the Beast, it applies if someone's head is chopped off or not. It is just a matter of listening to your conscience and responding, positively, to God's inner voice. It is obedience that embraces all that Christ is, and all that we must be in him. But it's a worthy discussion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But this belief contradicts what the Bible prophets say.
It will be the 'nation' which bears the proper fruit who will be delivered from their enemies. As Ezekiel 38-39 says.

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is widely taught because it is an essential part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Neither theory is prophesied to happen and we are told to stand firm in our faith thru all that must happen.

Ezekiel made it plain that Israel could be restored *before* they produce "proper fruit!"

Eze 36.22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone...
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

I've told you many, many times that I'm not a Dispensationalist. So I don't believe in the future salvation of national Israel at Christ's Coming because I'm a Dispensationalist.

But I do believe in a Rapture to Heaven at Christ's Coming. That is apparent from 1 Thes 4. And that originates from Dan 7 and from the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus said to his Jewish Disciples that Israel would suffer "great tribulation" as a national punishment *until the time of Gentile oppression is over.* The implication there is that national Israel is to be restored--certainly not to the exclusion of Christian nations, which also must be restored.

Concerning Israel's national restoration, Jesus answered his disciples question in Acts 1, indicating there is an underlying assumption that they knew Israel would be restored. It's just that the timing of this event is in the hands of God--we shouldn't be trying to time it.

 

[Timtofly]

It isn't. Faith existed before the Cross, and it exists after the Cross. Faith in Jesus' atonement, however, could only take place after the Cross, obviously.



I don't know what this means? Jesus had faith, and he wasn't sinful. So I don't equate faith only with sinful humanity.



I don't define faith strictly this way. Yes, sometimes you don't know the results, but sometimes you do. Abraham marched out in faith, not knowing what land he was heading to. But others later were told what land they were to inherit, and even when Israel was captive down in Egypt, they could exercise faith that they would inherit what they were told they could have. In other words, they knew the results of faith in this case.

I define faith more simply than this, because it is more inclusive. Faith is our acquiescence to God's word to our conscience. We choose to accept what God is saying to us. The word of God produces faith in us when we believe what it is saying, and accept doing it as our responsibility.



I have no idea whether Abel knew his offering was preferred and his brother's not.



Noah was obeying because he *knew* the Flood was coming--not just to obey regardless of whether the Flood came or not! He accepted God's word that it was coming as a judgment against sin. So Noah exercised his faith by continuing to model his life after the image of God, and do what God said he must do to survive.



Yes, faith is the acceptance of all that God has to say to us. By accepting what God says, we recognize who God is and what we must be like, having been created in His image.



Why would you even say such a thing? God wanted many churches on earth. And so, faith would grasp this and cooperate with this plan. Each individual must have his or her own faith. But collectively, the church makes up many individuals who have faith and who can share in the experience of faith. That collective experience helps us to avoid pitfalls, grow in knowledge, and successfully display all that God wants us to display. And God wishes to display His diversity in many different people, all encompassed by many churches.



Non-Christians can believe in God, and even if they don't believe in God they can obey the inner voice of their conscience. They can unwittingly be obeying some elements of God's word.

But "faith," as most Christians use the term, is applied only by the Christian when he accepts the whole counsel of God, accepting His Son, and choosing to be led by the Holy Spirit. I'm happy when non-Christians choose to live moral lives. But that doesn't get them saved.



I think you have a very convoluted definition of faith. Sorry, I'm sticking to faith comes by hearing the word of God. That may apply in the time of the Beast, it applies if someone's head is chopped off or not. It is just a matter of listening to your conscience and responding, positively, to God's inner voice. It is obedience that embraces all that Christ is, and all that we must be in him. But it's a worthy discussion.

All I am saying is asking if faith can be found, and then claiming the church has to be around after the Second Coming are two different concepts. The church and having faith are not codependent on each other.

I would question the fact Noah knew a flood was coming. He trusted God's Word, not his own knowledge. I know I have been redeemed, but some are not that comfortable and just claim a belief. But my redemption was in the past not a future event. Noah knew there was a Flood, the moment the ark started moving around and no longer standing firm on the earth.

After the Second Coming it will no longer be a matter of faith. It will be a known reality.

 

[Keraz]

I do believe in a Rapture to Heaven at Christ's Coming.

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a general 'rapture to heaven'.
1 Thess 4:17 does not say heaven and it happens when Jesus has left heaven to Return to the earth. It is therefore; a transportation, firstly to meet Jesus, then to be where He is, in Jerusalem; as proved by Zechariah 14:3

Concerning Israel's national restoration, Jesus answered his disciples question in Acts 1, indicating there is an underlying assumption that they knew Israel would be restored.

The Israel which will be restored into a nation in all of the holy Land, will be every faithful Christian person, from every tribe [of old Israel] every race, nation and language. Rev 5:9, Isaiah 62:1-5
The real Israelites of God, literally; the Overcomers for Him.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All I am saying is asking if faith can be found, and then claiming the church has to be around after the Second Coming are two different concepts. The church and having faith are not codependent on each other.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. However, that just provides me with the opportunity to argue against that. If there is no Church on earth, then there is no faith on earth.

Genuine biblical faith is based on a life-change, one that turns from the ways of this world to a life reflective of trusting in the Lord. If the Church left this world, God would have to re-create a Church on earth through conversion in order to have faith.

However, that argument, which I've heard all my life, is absurd to the max. If it's taken 2000 years to evangelize the world, it is utterly impossible to convert people from scratch and create a universal witness in just a few short years.

Some say 144,000 Jews will convert the world in 7 years (I don't even buy into a 7 years "Tribulation"--I read only of a 3.5 year reign of Antichrist). However, for a non-Christian group to convert without Christians to witness to them, and to mature quick enough to become witnesses themselves is crazy. And for them to start evangelizing the world and complete the task in 7 years is crazy!

I would question the fact Noah knew a flood was coming. He trusted God's Word, not his own knowledge.

Yes, neither would I argue that Noah was trusting in "his own knowledge." He was rather trusting in the word of God to his conscience. That is, as I said, the definition of having "faith." But it has everything to do with believing precisely what God was saying. And that entailed the fact the Flood was coming.

I know I have been redeemed, but some are not that comfortable and just claim a belief. But my redemption was in the past not a future event. Noah knew there was a Flood, the moment the ark started moving around and no longer standing firm on the earth.

After the Second Coming it will no longer be a matter of faith. It will be a known reality.

I think faith is strictly an adaptation to God's word to our spirit, in which we choose to follow that word and become like God in the way we live. We perceive God as different than we are in our carnal selves, and then mystically change into His image by obeying His word. When we do this completely, we are reborn and exercise true, biblical faith.

Faith does look odd to the world because it is based on a supernatural revelation. When others see the sky as sunny and predictable, Noah in his faith foresaw the coming storm. When Abraham looked lost and confused, leaving his home and family, he saw, by his faith, an inheritance in a land already possessed by other peoples.

Most importantly, when we see, by faith, Jesus as the Son of God, we are looked at as if we are following just a man and his teaching. But in our faith we adapt to the word of Christ and become like him, spiritually, ethically, and behaviorally.

The world may deny that we are changed, but in fact, we are. True biblical faith does that--it is faith in God's word to us, which contains the power to obey it. Our faith chooses to grasp hold of that power so that we do change.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a general 'rapture to heaven'.
1 Thess 4:17 does not say heaven and it happens when Jesus has left heaven to Return to the earth. It is therefore; a transportation, firstly to meet Jesus, then to be where He is, in Jerusalem; as proved by Zechariah 14:3

In my view, we are caught up to the *sky* for 2 reasons.
1) we are to be changed into the image of Christ, into immortality
2) we are to participate in Christ's return from heaven

1 Thes 4.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Please note the last statement, "and so we will be with the Lord forever." This is the express purpose of our being caught up in the clouds and in the air. It is so that we are changed to be like him so that we may live forever with him. It has nothing to do with moving away, such as moving from our house to another place. We don't move from earth to heaven as if it is a moving operation.

Rather, we are instantly taken up in order to participate in Christ's return from heaven. And it all takes place in a moment. Such a change does not take God any more than a "twinkling of an eye." It will be instantaneous form the perspective of man's vision.

So all of your talk about the Church not moving to heaven misses the boat. It is not about moving elsewhere, as if we're emigrating. No, it is about an instant change so that we can engage with Christ in his judgment against this ungodly world. If we are faithful and overcome our sins, we will participate with Christ in judging this world. Our word will join his as we call for a new order on earth.

There should be no debate at all then that the "sky" and the "air" are a form of "heaven"--not as if it is another place to move to but rather as a place immediately above the earth from which we can return from heaven with Christ. It will be an instant mobilization of heaven's army to return with Christ to impose the new order.

 

[Keraz]

In my view, we are caught up to the *sky* for 2 reasons.
1) we are to be changed into the image of Christ, into immortality
2) we are to participate in Christ's return from heaven

1 Thes 4.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Please note the last statement, "and so we will be with the Lord forever." This is the express purpose of our being caught up in the clouds and in the air. It is so that we are changed to be like him so that we may live forever with him. It has nothing to do with moving away, such as moving from our house to another place. We don't move from earth to heaven as if it is a moving operation.

Rather, we are instantly taken up in order to participate in Christ's return from heaven. And it all takes place in a moment. Such a change does not take God any more than a "twinkling of an eye." It will be instantaneous form the perspective of man's vision.

So all of your talk about the Church not moving to heaven misses the boat. It is not about moving elsewhere, as if we're emigrating. No, it is about an instant change so that we can engage with Christ in his judgment against this ungodly world. If we are faithful and overcome our sins, we will participate with Christ in judging this world. Our word will join his as we call for a new order on earth.

There should be no debate at all then that the "sky" and the "air" are a form of "heaven"--not as if it is another place to move to but rather as a place immediately above the earth from which we can return from heaven with Christ. It will be an instant mobilization of heaven's army to return with Christ to impose the new order.

Your beliefs in this matter, simply do not conform to what the Bible tell us.

At the Return, there is no change to the bodies of living Christians; that cannot happen before the Book of Life is opened; at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15
The only ones who are resurrected, [into mortal bodies, as Lazarus was] will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4
And; the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was over. Rev 20:5

It is sheer sci-fi nonsense to think humans will return with Jesus. Matthew 16:27 and Rev 19:14 plainly say He will be accompanied by the armies of heaven.
The 'twinkling of an eye' change as described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, happens after the Millennium, proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

I proved my points with 7 scriptures. You?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your beliefs in this matter, simply do not conform to what the Bible tell us.

At the Return, there is no change to the bodies of living Christians; that cannot happen before the Book of Life is opened; at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

The change mentioned after the Millennium in Rev 20 does not preclude an earlier transformation at the beginning of the Millennium. There is no theology forbidding a transformation of Christians at that time. On the contrary, our change is reiterated time and again that we are transformed into immortal, glorified bodies *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ--not 1000 years later. Those who are transformed a thousand years later are part of the "2nd resurrection."

So it is you are aren't Scriptural in this regard. You may argue against a few passages, but not against the consensus of Scriptures that portray our glorification *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. You may argue words like "glorification," but apart from this, Christians have had no problem seeing the very purpose of Christ's Coming at his 2nd Advent as being to transform his Church into immortality.

To be "glorified" can have the sense of being vindicated. For example, Jesus is here portrayed as about to be resurrected in the sense of obtaining physical transformation...

John 7.39 Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified... 12.16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him... 13.31 When he was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

Notice in ch. 13 that there is an immediate glorification in the sense of vindication, followed up by a future sense of glorification at the transformation of Jesus into immortality in heaven. It happens "at once," just as it will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" for Christians at their transformation to immortality.

Notice below in Acts 3 how the process of glorifying Jesus ends with his resurrection...

Acts 3.13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead.

And here, Peter describes Jesus' resurrection as "glorification."

1 Pet 1.21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

It is in this light that you can understand how Paul viewed "glorified bodies" of the saints to be revealed at the 2nd Coming.

2 Thes 1.10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

The resurrection is inextricably linked to the glorification of our bodies. And according to Paul this takes place at the 2nd Coming, which is when the "1st Resurrection" takes place.

Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The only ones who are resurrected, [into mortal bodies, as Lazarus was] will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4
And; the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was over. Rev 20:5

It is sheer sci-fi nonsense to think humans will return with Jesus. Matthew 16:27 and Rev 19:14 plainly say He will be accompanied by the armies of heaven.

It may seem like Sci Fi to you, but that's exactly what Revelation portrays are the Armies in heaven. They are glorified saints, since they wear white.

Rev 3.5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white.
Rev 19.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.