Will some Christians be left in the rapture

[GRACE ambassador]

Will Some christians be left behind in the rapture?

We are familiar with the passages of scripture that say to keep watch lest ye be left behind and to keep your oil lamps full for the rapture.
I want to ask you all what you've learned about who will be left behind and why? And will some Christians be left behind in the rapture?

(Please refrain from arguing over the timing of the rapture this thread is just for discussing who will be left behind and why.)

Precious friend, Since The Great GRACE Departure {aka rapture} is For The Body Of CHRIST, In Romans Through Philemon, then That will be where we find "Only partial?" Or:

ALL! "members" Will Depart To Heaven! Amen? Scriptural Evidence?:

(1) Paul, Inspired By God, To teach ALL Gospel Of GRACE "members":

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by The Word of The LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of The LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For The LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with These Words.

IF we say "Only partial" of the "we which are alive and remain," then we {not so careful} students would have to ADD {"ONLY we faithful"} To God's Word, which is forbidden, and causes More Confusion With God's Following Evidence!:

(2)
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but
we Shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can we now Change God's "all" to man's "Only partial," causing Even More Confusion of our JUDGMENT?:

(3)
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and
EVERY man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's
husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the GRACE of God which is given unto me, as a
wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
But let EVERY man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than That Is Laid,
Which Is JESUS CHRIST.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 EVERY man's work shall be made manifest: for The {JUDGMENT?} Day Shall Declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try
EVERY man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
------------------------------------------
IF "ONLY part of the members" are going to Judgment, then that would Negate ALL of the "EVERY {faithful [v. 14] AND UNfaithful[v. 15]} man" teachings above, Correct?

Thus, ALL and EVERY man/woman/child, who are "members" Of The Body Of CHRIST, Will "Depart From earth to be Judged In Heaven!" NONE will be
"left behind" for whatever reason men may say. This Is of God, From The:

Gospel of The GRACE of God, According To The Revelation Of The MYSTERY! Which Ends!...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

...God's Prophetic program resumes...who will be "left behind" and why?:

This then leaves ONLY UNbelievers who are "left behind" on the earth to go through The Time Of JACOB's Trouble {purification for those who will believe in ISRAEL?}, With God's Everlasting "gospel of the kingdom" to be preached by 144,000, TWO powerful witnesses, and by an angel to ALL the world of UNbelievers (Revelation 14:6).

This is according To The Prophetic program of God. (Daniel, Matthew, And Revelation)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The "refraining from discussing Timing" has been lifted, so, Precious friend(s):

I guess the discussion now should be how many trumpets there are.

Carry on.

Only those left behind get to count the Trumpets.

Yes, the prophecy experts "count the trumpets" in the Time of JACOB's Trouble, but:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

The MYSTERY experts are interested in only These TWO:

Part 13 {of 17} Great GRACE Departure!:

The TWO "Trumps" Of God In HIS "Age Of GRACE!"

The FIRST "Trump" { VOICE Of God }, Opened This Age Of GRACE
( Acts 9 : 4! )

( CHRIST's Appearing To / Blinding: Saul/Paul! )

The LAST "Trump" { VOICE Of God = "Come Up Hither!" }, CLOSES
This Current Age Of GRACE! ( 1 Thessalonians 4 : 16!! )

( CHRIST's Appearing For HIS Body, The Church, To Take us HOME TO HEAVEN! }
( 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10, 4 : 13-18, 5-9; 1 Corinthians 15 : 50-57;
Philippians 3 : 20-21; 2 Timothy 4 : 18; Galatians 1 : 3-4;
Titus 2 : 13 )

Hence, The Timing = PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!

See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

 

[Truth7t7]

Will Some christians be left behind in the rapture?

Precious friend, Since The Great GRACE Departure {aka rapture} is For The Body Of CHRIST, In Romans Through Philemon, then That will be where we find "Only partial?" Or:

ALL! "members" Will Depart To Heaven! Amen? Scriptural Evidence?:

(1) Paul, Inspired By God, To teach ALL Gospel Of GRACE "members":

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by The Word of The LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of The LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For The LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with These Words.

IF we say "Only partial" of the "we which are alive and remain," then we {not so careful} students would have to ADD {"ONLY we faithful"} To God's Word, which is forbidden, and causes More Confusion With God's Following Evidence!:

(2)
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but
we Shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can we now Change God's "all" to man's "Only partial," causing Even More Confusion of our JUDGMENT?:

(3)
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and
EVERY man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's
husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the GRACE of God which is given unto me, as a
wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
But let EVERY man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than That Is Laid,
Which Is JESUS CHRIST.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 EVERY man's work shall be made manifest: for The {JUDGMENT?} Day Shall Declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try
EVERY man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
------------------------------------------
IF "ONLY part of the members" are going to Judgment, then that would Negate ALL of the "EVERY {faithful [v. 14] AND UNfaithful[v. 15]} man" teachings above, Correct?

Thus, ALL and EVERY man/woman/child, who are "members" Of The Body Of CHRIST, Will "Depart From earth to be Judged In Heaven!" NONE will be
"left behind" for whatever reason men may say. This Is of God, From The:

Gospel of The GRACE of God, According To The Revelation Of The MYSTERY! Which Ends!...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

...God's Prophetic program resumes...who will be "left behind" and why?:

This then leaves ONLY UNbelievers who are "left behind" on the earth to go through The Time Of JACOB's Trouble {purification for those who will believe in ISRAEL?}, With God's Everlasting "gospel of the kingdom" to be preached by 144,000, TWO powerful witnesses, and by an angel to ALL the world of UNbelievers (Revelation 14:6).

This is according To The Prophetic program of God. (Daniel, Matthew, And Revelation)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

Will Some christians be left behind in the rapture?

Precious friend, Since The Great GRACE Departure {aka rapture} is For The Body Of CHRIST, In Romans Through Philemon, then That will be where we find "Only partial?" Or:

ALL! "members" Will Depart To Heaven! Amen? Scriptural Evidence?:

(1) Paul, Inspired By God, To teach ALL Gospel Of GRACE "members":

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by The Word of The LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of The LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For The LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with These Words.

IF we say "Only partial" of the "we which are alive and remain," then we {not so careful} students would have to ADD {"ONLY we faithful"} To God's Word, which is forbidden, and causes More Confusion With God's Following Evidence!:

(2)
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but
we Shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can we now Change God's "all" to man's "Only partial," causing Even More Confusion of our JUDGMENT?:

(3)
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and
EVERY man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's
husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the GRACE of God which is given unto me, as a
wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth thereon.
But let EVERY man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than That Is Laid,
Which Is JESUS CHRIST.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 EVERY man's work shall be made manifest: for The {JUDGMENT?} Day Shall Declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try
EVERY man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
------------------------------------------
IF "ONLY part of the members" are going to Judgment, then that would Negate ALL of the "EVERY {faithful [v. 14] AND UNfaithful[v. 15]} man" teachings above, Correct?

Thus, ALL and EVERY man/woman/child, who are "members" Of The Body Of CHRIST, Will "Depart From earth to be Judged In Heaven!" NONE will be
"left behind" for whatever reason men may say. This Is of God, From The:

Gospel of The GRACE of God, According To The Revelation Of The MYSTERY! Which Ends!...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

...God's Prophetic program resumes...who will be "left behind" and why?:

This then leaves ONLY UNbelievers who are "left behind" on the earth to go through The Time Of JACOB's Trouble {purification for those who will believe in ISRAEL?}, With God's Everlasting "gospel of the kingdom" to be preached by 144,000, TWO powerful witnesses, and by an angel to ALL the world of UNbelievers (Revelation 14:6).

This is according To The Prophetic program of God. (Daniel, Matthew, And Revelation)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[teamventure]

My final thought passed to me by a fellow believer; "Christ won't marry only half of his bride."

Shalom! Maranatha!

 

[Truth7t7]

My final thought passed to me by a fellow believer; "Christ won't marry only half of his bride."

Shalom! Maranatha!

I Agree, a pre-trib rapture is a farce, take believers to heaven to a marriage supper, whilesouls are still being saved on earth, and they miss the party, smiles!

 

[Curtis]

Any person that dosent follow the teachings in error, of John N. Darby & C.I. Scofield in a pre-trib rapture "dispensationalism" are judged as (Luke Warm Christians)?

Real Big Smiles!

The rapture is mid trib.

 

[Curtis]

My final thought passed to me by a fellow believer; "Christ won't marry only half of his bride."

Shalom! Maranatha!

God divorced Israel for adultery in Jeremiah 3:8 and half the virgins wee shut out of the wedding supper in Matthew 25.

 

[Truth7t7]

The rapture is mid trib.

The catching up is post tribulation at the second coming, on the last day final judgement

 

[farouk]

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Have strength to escape = endure

Rather than fail to uphold your testimony of Christ due to the threat and fear of men from the tortures, imprisonments, and beheadings they will inflict, which he said the saints would go through (rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28), pray that you escape the temptation to betray Him. Endure.

@NewMusic Some sections of Luke's Gospel may in fact have as their context tribulation saints, rather than the church.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My final thought passed to me by a fellow believer; "Christ won't marry only half of his bride."

Shalom! Maranatha!

Yet there were 10 virgins. Then again, just do what He said and keep trusting Him that He is fair and merciful and able to judge fairly and mercifully.

 

[MatthewG]

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Though do believe that Jesus Christ has come and already taken the bride.

There is still great hope that even when it is our turn to leave this body; in my opinion ; can be wrong on this. Our soul leaves our body into the next dimension: The dimension were God resides, and all people are going there.

That is what this scripture is saying especially because they were going to be gathered with Christ when He had came back to them.

After a believer or unbeliever leaves this body of flesh they go onwards to God to be judged, and as individuals each are responsible for their own life that was given to them. God is good; God will not do any evil, because there is no darkness with-in Himself. God will take in account everything.

You may even get questioned about why do you think you should come into Heaven?

What would your own answer be?

Mine would be of course because of your Son Jesus Christ; and nothing that was ever done by me myself. It was all because of Him, and not me.

Some may tell God that they do not have any desire to be with Him.

What do you think God would do to a person like that if they desired not to be with Him? Have you ever thought about it before?

 

[Iconoclast]

We are familiar with the passages of scripture that say to keep watch lest ye be left behind and to keep your oil lamps full for the rapture.
I want to ask you all what you've learned about who will be left behind and why? And will some Christians be left behind in the rapture?

(Please refrain from arguing over the timing of the rapture this thread is just for discussing who will be left behind and why.)

what do you mean left behind?
what verse are you thinking of?

 

[Zao is life]

@teamventure IMO one of the reasons there is so much confusion about this is firstly because many saints don't understand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

WRATH & JUDGMENT vs TRIBULATION ACCORDING TO THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement. A final judgement came upon Babylon when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city in the day Jerusalem was destroyed by the the armies of Babylon: Jeremiah 50:13

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved. The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and there is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's wrath, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image"

TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
With the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6, every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about tribulation as the experience of the saints, i.e of those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is a third exception to the rule and is speaking about the great tribulation which was faced by the Jews in A.D 70).

GREAT TRIBULATION
There are three times (only three times) in the New Testament where the Greek word mégas (great) is used as an adjective to describe the intensity of the thlîpsis (tribulation): Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; and Revelation 7:14.

Two of them are talking about great tribulation as the experience of the saints (Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14).

SAVED FROM WRATH, NOT FROM THE TRIBULATION OF THE SAINTS
The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3 The wrath of God is being called "the hour of temptation" in this verse
10 Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

It's talking about being saved from God's wrath, not from tribulation.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

There is only one day mentioned in the New Testament regarding the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He returns: 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 & 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 11:11-12.

Note: The entire "Pre-tribulation rapture" idea is based on conflating tribulation and great tribulation with God's wrath. "The great tribulation" that the New Testament is talking about in the Revelation is a prophesied experience of saints at the hand of the beast in the day he makes war against them and overcomes them, which will not be a tribulation being experienced by the saints as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, because the saints are saved from God's wrath.

 

[Truth7t7]

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Though do believe that Jesus Christ has come and already taken the bride.

There is still great hope that even when it is our turn to leave this body; in my opinion ; can be wrong on this. Our soul leaves our body into the next dimension: The dimension were God resides, and all people are going there.

That is what this scripture is saying especially because they were going to be gathered with Christ when He had came back to them.

After a believer or unbeliever leaves this body of flesh they go onwards to God to be judged, and as individuals each are responsible for their own life that was given to them. God is good; God will not do any evil, because there is no darkness with-in Himself. God will take in account everything.

You may even get questioned about why do you think you should come into Heaven?

What would your own answer be?

Mine would be of course because of your Son Jesus Christ; and nothing that was ever done by me myself. It was all because of Him, and not me.

Some may tell God that they do not have any desire to be with Him.

What do you think God would do to a person like that if they desired not to be with Him? Have you ever thought about it before?

Yes Matt preliminary judgement does take place upon death, for the believers it's instantly to be in the presence if the Lord

For the unbelieving wicked, its Hell, with all the dead waiting upon final judgement, that will end in the eternal kingdom or lake of fire

 

[Truth7t7]

IMO one of the reasons there is so much confusion about this is firstly because many saints don't understand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

WRATH & JUDGMENT vs TRIBULATION ACCORDING TO THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement. A final judgement came upon Babylon when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city in the day Jerusalem was destroyed by the the armies of Babylon: Jeremiah 50:13

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved. The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and there is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's wrath, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image"

TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
With the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6, every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about tribulation as the experience of the saints, i.e of those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is a third exception to the rule and is speaking about the great tribulation which was faced by the Jews in A.D 70).

GREAT TRIBULATION
There are three times (only three times) in the New Testament where the Greek word mégas (great) is used as an adjective to describe the intensity of the thlîpsis (tribulation): Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; and Revelation 7:14.

Two of them are talking about great tribulation as the experience of the saints (Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14).

SAVED FROM WRATH, NOT FROM THE TRIBULATION OF THE SAINTS
The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3 The wrath of God is being called "the hour of temptation" in this verse
10 Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

It's talking about being saved from God's wrath, not from tribulation.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

There is only one day mentioned in the New Testament regarding the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He returns: 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 & 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 11:11-12.

Note: The entire "Pre-tribulation rapture" idea is based on conflating tribulation and great tribulation with God's wrath. "The great tribulation" that the New Testament is talking about in the Revelation is a prophesied experience of saints at the hand of the beast in the day he makes war against them and overcomes them, which will not be a tribulation being experienced by the saints as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, because the saints are saved from God's wrath.

The saints being overcome in Revelation 13:7 is the (Two Witnesses) a parallel teaching seen in Revelation 11:7

Same Event In Parallel Teachings Below

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Truth7t7,

That may be your view when it comes to unbelievers.

My view leans on Jesus having the victory over Satan and His Army of Demons, Sin, Death, Grave. That for unbelievers according to Revelation 22, that people will be outside of the kingdom in the darkness because of their own personal choice of not desiring to be with the Lord God Almighty. The view that is held is that all people receive resurrected spiritual bodies: Regardless if they died with faith or without. God gives all people a new spiritual body that is fit for them. Then God places the people with faith in to the Kingdom who were saved on earth being saved unto the Kingdom of Heaven now today by faith. Those without faith are placed outside of the city.

Thank you for sharing your view, Truth7t7 though our views may not line up.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hello Truth7t7,

That may be your view when it comes to unbelievers.

My view leans on Jesus having the victory over Satan and His Army of Demons, Sin, Death, Grave. That for unbelievers according to Revelation 22, that people will be outside of the kingdom in the darkness because of their own personal choice of not desiring to be with the Lord God Almighty. The view that is held is that all people receive resurrected spiritual bodies: Regardless if they died with faith or without. God gives all people a new spiritual body that is fit for them. Then God places the people with faith in to the Kingdom who were saved on earth being saved unto the Kingdom of Heaven now today by faith. Those without faith are placed outside of the city.

Thank you for sharing your view, Truth7t7 though our views may not line up.

Thanks for the response Matt, Revelation 22:15 below, those outside the city in the Eternal kingdom are seen below in Isaiah 66:24 (The Lake Of Fire) where their fire in torment wont be quenched

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 22:14KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Truth7t7,

When it comes down to Satan and the Demons and the False prophet they have been done away with, that includes hell too.

I can not deny or confirm that Isaiah 66:22-24 and Revelation 22:14 match up exactly or what it is exactly trying to say or what you may be putting emphasis on what your own view is because of what the scripture says.

If you are someone that believes that People are going to be punished forever and ever because scripture says so that is fine with me that you believe that way, that doesn't mean that it is the 100% way to correctly understand a certain scripture without checking out other scriptures or that not agreeing with you makes me any less of a person of Faith in God and Christ.

All that is known from my view if you are still reading is this: that (2 Peter 3:9) the Lord desires none to perish but all to come to the knowledge of truth, and God desires/wants/ for all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:11.

Now those people who are outside in spiritual darkness may roam around forever there, but the Gates of the City never close them off.

It something to be thankful to know that God will allow those who made the decision to not be faithful that He still has a place for them outside of the city gates, which the gates never close, however the people who are out in the darkness may dwell out there for as long as they desire.

Maybe when you, whoever else, or me get to heaven God will let us go out there to help them who are in the darkness coming to people in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ you know, and help the come to the Lord but they may mock us and laugh at us as we try to help.

(This is all conjecture but still this is not far away from the realm of Reality in my mind that God is capable of doing though to others my thinking my be completely off and away from what they may believe and think themselves.)

Thank you for your time, for sharing your own understanding and personal insight from use of the scriptures.

With love towards you brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
Matthew G.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hello Truth7t7,

When it comes down to Satan and the Demons and the False prophet they have been done away with, that includes hell too.

I can not deny or confirm that Isaiah 66:22-24 and Revelation 22:14 match up exactly or what it is exactly trying to say or what you may be putting emphasis on what your own view is because of what the scripture says.

If you are someone that believes that People are going to be punished forever and ever because scripture says so that is fine with me that you believe that way, that doesn't mean that it is the 100% way to correctly understand a certain scripture without checking out other scriptures or that not agreeing with you makes me any less of a person of Faith in God and Christ.

All that is known from my view if you are still reading is this: that (2 Peter 3:9) the Lord desires none to perish but all to come to the knowledge of truth, and God desires/wants/ for all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:11.

Now those people who are outside in spiritual darkness may roam around forever there, but the Gates of the City never close them off.

It something to be thankful to know that God will allow those who made the decision to not be faithful that He still has a place for them outside of the city gates, which the gates never close, however the people who are out in the darkness may dwell out there for as long as they desire.

Maybe when you, whoever else, or me get to heaven God will let us go out there to help them who are in the darkness coming to people in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ you know, and help the come to the Lord but they may mock us and laugh at us as we try to help.

(This is all conjecture but still this is not far away from the realm of Reality in my mind that God is capable of doing though to others my thinking my be completely off and away from what they may believe and think themselves.)

Thank you for your time, for sharing your own understanding and personal insight from use of the scriptures.

With love towards you brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
Matthew G.

Sounds like you have a hard time dealing with literal eternal torment

Are you 7th day Adventist or Jehovah's Witness?

The bible is very clear regarding eternal torment, just one example seen below

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.