Behold
Well-Known Member
But i am glad that you listed yourself in your post = as an unbeliever..
As you said "WE", when describing unbelievers...
So, at least you posted something honest about yourself.. and your Religion.
Will unbelievers never be saved?
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But i am glad that you listed yourself in your post = as an unbeliever..
As you said "WE", when describing unbelievers...
So, at least you posted something honest about yourself.. and your Religion.
LOL. Well, you are being consistent with being a bad person...saved by religion.
The we is ALL men. read the bible.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Your testamony and your posts and Threads are consistent with Cross Denying Legalism.
Your online personality, imho, as you've directed it at this Forum is consistent with "Religious delusions of Grandeur"..
So, notice.. this now.. @Episkopos
Im saved by The One who died on THE CROSS who shed HIS blood as MY Forgiveness = to save me.
Another way to look at that is...
Jesus said. "all that BELIEVE in me ... I give unto them Eternal life, and they shall never go to Hell (perish)"
Another way to see that is...
All the born again, the BELIEVERS.. have become "The Righteousness of God, in Christ".
Dear Wrangler,Friend. I am a binary thinker. Simple yes or no answers will generally suffice. Your replies tend to be non responsive to my question. I asked a yes or no question about v 18. If you cannot answer it, that's OK.
How do you reconcile John 3:16-18 with the verses from the OP?
I answered your question but apparently if I say more than just a couple of sentences and support my statements with scripture, you lose interest in learning the truth of what God's Word teaches.
Here is my short answer to your question WITHOUT scriptural support: Christ did not come to condemn the world because it is the Law that condemns us. This is taught in many places of scripture. Christ specifically taught this truth in the story of the "woman taken in adultery".
All mankind is "condemned already" by the Law because all mankind sins. Only a person who has been given the Holy Spirit by Christ can have any faith in Him. This is where a person's faith comes from. It is truly a gift from God that will (at a time of Christ's choosing) eventually be given to all mankind.
By the end of the final age, there will be no "unbelievers".
Joe
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Your TULIP Calvinism is showing again.
Here is the thing Calvinist....
God requires faith in Christ before He gives you HIS "Gift of Salvation."
Jesus said..>"all that believe in me".....>He never said..>>"all that i cause to Believe will believe"., as that is John Calvinism's demonic twist on it.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.
Listen and think....
= If God caused you to have faith in Christ, He would not require you to believe In Him ., as there would be no need for the requirement that you "BELIEVE".
Now, within everyone is the capacity to believe, as that is a "measure of Faith."
All have it.
Even right now unbelievers believe in something..... but that is wrong faith... but its still faith, and God didnt make them believe wrong,, and God does not make them believe right..
He allows us all to believe and this is why preachers preach, and teachers teach. We are giving you the TRUTH To Believe in....
Its why the world of unbelievers are always being led (drawn by The Cross and the Holy Spirit) into RIGHT FAITH, that God will accept.
See.. .and listen now.. Readers...
An Atheist has FAITH.... just like a Believer has Faith.
The Atheist BELIEVES there is NO GOD and No Salvation needed, as that is their FAITH, and God can't accept that Faith.
BECAUSE..." all who come to GOD must BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS">... = Hebrews 11:6
whereas....
The Believer's FAITH is IN CHRIST, and God accepts THAT Faith, the very moment it's in your heart.
See it?
Both have a "measure of Faith" but the Believer's Faith, is the Faith that God accepts.
Here is another way to see it, Reader.
Cain and Abel both went to God, but Cain was rejected because he did it the wrong way.
BOTH BELIEVED in GOD...
See it?
Both had FAITH, but God has a WAY you must believe, that you must come to Him... and in the NT, .. .TODAY>.. = JESUS IS THE WAY....
John 14:6
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WalterandDebbie
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Good Morning Wrangler, No, and yes, Reading your OP to answer is like you said in the beginning, but this thread cause my mind to think of: "As such as should be saved"
John 3
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Love, Walter
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I appreciate your attempt at brevity. Now we are getting somewhere.
You are so eager to reveal the pedant in you that you don’t even realize ‘The Law’ does not apply to unbelieving Gentiles. This threads topic is about a group you don’t seem to want to talk about or acknowledge exist.
Why can’t you answer my question of reconciling John 3:17-19 with the verses in the OP (and 1 Tim 4:10)?
Dear Behold,
Yes, faith (belief) is what makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to a person and convert them (Latter Rain & Judgment).
What you fail to understand & accept is that no person can have any faith in Christ until Christ comes to them and freely gives them the "Spirit of Faith" (2Cor 4:13). I have pointed out the scriptures to you before that teach this truth but you continue to reject them. Your "works based belief system" has become a wall that separately you from being able to receive this truth.
At a time of Christ's choosing, Christ will come to an unbeliever and freely give them the Spirit of Faith. He gives them this gift without their asking and without their permission. The Spirit of Faith is also called the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the new believer will always make a confession of faith when presented the Gospel. If the new believer remains in this faithful condition upon the Lord's return, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them, followed by judgment (Mat 3:11). This is their moment of salvation.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
With the Early Rain of the Spirit, the new believer will have a measure of faith but they will remain spiritually blind. Because of such, Christ only appears to them as "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). It is at this point they must wait in a faithful condition (as a chaste virgin) for the Lord to return with baptism of the Holy Spirit and with Fire. These two baptisms are necessary for the person to be converted and saved. Faith is what opens the door for Christ to do His spiritual work of conversion within the person.
The OT faithful (includes Abel) died in their faith but they were not converted and saved. Upon their "better resurrection", the Elect will work with Christ to make the OT faithful "perfect" (a child of God).
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Having faith does not save a person. Having faith is what makes the pathway straight for Christ to come them and save them. Christ is the Savior. Remember, the New Covenant is Grace through Faith.
Joe
Dear Wrangler,
Here is the verse:
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The verse is saying that Christ is the Savior of all mankind. Those who have faith now (the Elect) will have a better salvation because they will receive the rewards of being an Heir (life during the ages and reigning with Christ). That is what "especially of those that believe" means.
The verse isn't teaching that belief (faith) is not required for salvation. That concept is strongly contradicted by other scripture.
You should read my post above to Behold. It teaches the importance of faith and how a person obtains it.
Joe
Behold
Well-Known Member
You twisted the verse.
Im going to untwist it.
Here is the verse..
""""We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed,"""""
Notice that the writer said....."I BELIEVED".. (already) (past tense).
As that is why they have the same spirit of faith.
It does not say that because God forced me to have the spirit of faith, is why i believed.... = as that is how a Deceived Calvinist teaches it.
'"""""""""""""and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;""""""""""""""
See that?
The context is "we also BELIEVE", and therefore... speak.
The deceived John Calvinist, teaches this as.....Because God made me have faith to believe, i now have it, and therefore i speak.
See, this Devil, John Calvin, is aways teaching that you are born again, before you have trusted in Christ.
And that is the DEVIL's Lie.
Dear Behold,
You refuse to accept that it is Jesus Christ who saves us. He does all the works which includes giving us a measure of faith.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
When a person enters the church, they do so only because "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith".
Without God freely giving faith to a person, they will remain in this condition:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Only AFTER Christ comes to a unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit will they make a confession of faith:
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
You have turned the free gift of God into a work of man. Faith is the result of God giving a person the Early Rain of the Spirit and not the other way around.
You are denying the truth of what Paul says here:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
With the false gospel of works that you teach, a saved person would have something that they could boast about over those who reject Christ. To them, you are making yourself out to be smarter, wiser or just not as evil as they are. And because of such, you have turned your clothes of righteousness into filthy rags and have become a very self-righteous Christian.
Joe
A “better” salvation implies there is a salvation for those without faith.
The TV upstairs is better implies there is a TV downstairs - not that down stairs has no TV.
Of course that is what it is teaching!
As @Episkopos said, the verse reads ‘especially’ not ‘exclusively.’ If the text read “exclusively,” you’d be right.
You should participate in conversation - not monologue.
Joe, I look forward to your answer to the reconciliation question. Thanks.
Methinks you guys are just talking past each other. There's another way to resolve this.
Imagine a heavenly discussion between John and Paul, after Paul reads John's gospel (penned after Paul died) and John reads Paul's letter to Timothy (which he hadn't seen when he wrote his gospel). Paul comes upon John 3:18 and sees John's conclusion that nonbelievers are condemned. John reads 1 Tim. 4:10 and sees Paul's suggestion that even non-believers will be saved. After an exchange of pleasantries (and perhaps a shared chuckle at all the posters on Christianity Board who break into hives if every word of the Bible doesn't consistently point on the same direction), they say to each other:
Paul: "My thought was that believers would 'especially' benefit from Christ's saving sacrifice because while he is the Savior of mankind, it is those who believe on him that appropriate the benefits of his sacrifice."
John: "And only those who believe on him, Paulie?"
Paul: "That's my view, Johnny. Sorry if I was unclear. But Timmy got the message. If I'd known the letter would be read by a billion others besides him, I might have tightened it up a bit!"
Imagine a heavenly discussion between John and Paul, after Paul reads John's gospel (penned after Paul died) and John reads Paul's letter to Timothy (which he hadn't seen when he wrote his gospel). Paul comes upon John 3:18 and sees John's conclusion that nonbelievers are condemned. John reads 1 Tim. 4:10 and sees Paul's suggestion that even non-believers will be saved. After an exchange of pleasantries (and perhaps a shared chuckle at all the posters on Christianity Board who break into hives if every word of the Bible doesn't consistently point on the same direction), they say to each other:
Paul: "My thought was that believers would 'especially' benefit from Christ's saving sacrifice because while he is the Savior of mankind, it is those who believe on him that appropriate the benefits of his sacrifice."
John: "And only those who believe on him, Paulie?"
Paul: "That's my view, Johnny. Sorry if I was unclear. But Timmy got the message. If I'd known the letter would be read by a billion others besides him, I might have tightened it up a bit!"
Dear Wrangler,
You said:
A “better” salvation implies there is a salvation for those without faith.
A "better" salvation is the salvation the Elect receive solely because they are blessed by God. It does not imply that salvation can come to people without faith. That is a false assumption and is contradicted by scripture.
Faith is given to an unbeliever so that Christ will come to them and save them. The entire salvation process is accomplished by the work of Christ and not by any "work" that a person might do. That is the true pathway to salvation and it does not change, either in this age or the final age.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
You asked:
Why can’t you answer my question of reconciling John 3:17-19 with the verses in the OP (and 1 Tim 4:10)?
I have answered your question. You just can't understand my answer. I will try again.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
All mankind is condemned already by the Law because all mankind sins. They are children of the devil and they can never believe in Christ. Scripture says that only those people who have the Spirit can believe. When they have the Spirit, they have been "born again" and have become a child of God. Only a child of God can believe in Christ.
To accomplish this "conversion" from a child of the devil into a child of God, Christ will come to a person and make a spiritual change within them. He does this solely because of His grace and not because of anything the person has done.
To begin the process of conversion, Christ will give the unbeliever the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, the unbeliever is given a "measure of faith" (Rom 12:3). With the Spirit of Faith, they become a child of God and a believer. As a child of God, they are no longer condemned by the Law.
But because the Early Rain of the Spirit leaves the new believer spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25), they will not be able to understand the truth of God. Satan will then come to them and plant his seed of the spirit of anti-Christ within them. This will cause them to accept his "another gospel" which mixes man's works with faith. The new believer accepts this false gospel easily because it is more pleasing to their carnal nature than is the true Gospel of Christ:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
When a new believer accepts Satan's false gospel, they are committing the sin that leads to death. This is when the new believer unknowingly exchanges their clothes of righteousness for filthy rags (man's works). This is the point when the believer becomes "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and falls from grace.
The fallen away believer will remain in this lost condition until they die UNLESS they one of the Elect who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. In that case, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit, followed by His judgment. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is also called the "Spirit of Truth" because it is at that time that Christ will heal the fallen away believer's spiritual blindness. With the believer now able to receive the truth of God, their faith will be restored (will no longer mix works with faith) and Christ will appear to them spiritually. Judgment will then follow and their conversion will be complete.
As for 1Tim 4:10, it does not say that a person without faith can enter the Kingdom of Heaven (salvation) so there is nothing to reconcile with John 3:17-19.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God...
Joe
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Have we ever considered the question, given the immensity of God why is it incumbent upon us to believe he is there?
When we are told, all that exists is proof God exists, so we are without excuse to not believe God is real.
Even if we don't confess with our mouth that we believe God is there, we are told we have proof in all that exists, including us, that he does.
Why would an immense power require our devout attention?
When we are told, all that exists is proof God exists, so we are without excuse to not believe God is real.
Even if we don't confess with our mouth that we believe God is there, we are told we have proof in all that exists, including us, that he does.
Why would an immense power require our devout attention?
Now you are just repeating yourself, which shows a complete lack of understanding of how language is used. I demonstrated this via upstairs TV.
"Better" is a relative term. The verse does not read existence is better than non-existence, salvation is better than annihilation. And what is being compared is types of salvation.
Hope this helps.
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