Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[Enoch111]

~ "Well, where does that faith come from?" Not from God, so all from me.

Mjh29,

1. You have been shown a hundred times that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17).

2. You have also been shown the entire chapter of Romans 10 which reveals in detail how saving faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel.

3. You have also been shown that when the Gospel -- WHICH IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION -- is preached, the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and to convince sinners, while the Father, the Son, and the Spirit draw all men to Christ.

So why do you continue to make such foolish statements as "Not from God, so all from me"? Which tells the world that you do not even believe God, who tells you that it is the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, that is it the Gospel which is the seed of the New Birth, that it is the Gospel which must be preached to every creature, because God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Jun2u]

Now who is thoroughly confused? Faith cometh by hearing but ONLY FOR THE ELECT? You won't find that in Romans 10

Only an elect who is alive in God understands the verse Rom 10:17. If you were an elect you too would have heard the Gospel but sad to say, you are dead. You are correct of course that faith is only for the elect. It is a gift Eph 2:8.

You don't even know the meaning of foreknowledge, election, and predestination, and what that is all about. So let me refresh your memory, before you continue with your confused ideas, and confuse others.

Why don’t you not understand what I’ve said, is it because you cannot hear my words? Sound familiar?

Didn’t I explain that the term “foreknowledge” means “beforehand I loved you? “Fore” means “before” and the word “know/knew” means “love” as per Genesis 4:1; 4:17; 4: 25.?

If you cannot “see” the co-relation then I can’t help you. Pray to the Holy Spirit to open your eyes so that you may “see” and “hear” the Gospel.

Just because majority in Christendom have the same understanding and teaching of Rom 10:17 as you do, DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT ON. Read the account of Isaiah, him alone against the 450 Baal prophets. Who prevailed?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Mjh29]

1. You have been shown a hundred times that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17).

1.) Yes. But here is the problem; man in his natural state hates God and hates His word; man cannot of himself come to God
Ephesians 2:1-3
Genesis 6:5
Genesis 8:21
Ecclesiastes 9:3
Jeremiah 17:9
John 3:19
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 4:17-19
Titus 1:15

We are enslaved to Satan from birth, because of Adam. A man enslaved to Satan does not contemplate the things of God
John 8:44
Ephesians 2:1-2
2 Timothy 2:25-26
1 John 3:10
1 John 5:19
John 8:34
Titus 3:3

2. You have also been shown the entire chapter of Romans 10 which reveals in detail how saving faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel.

The problem is you are skipping over the entire chapter of Romans 9, as well as other passages from the book;
Romans 8:7-8
Romans 6:20
Romans 3:9-12
Romans 11:35-36
Romans 8:33

3. You have also been shown that when the Gospel -- WHICH IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION -- is preached, the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and to convince sinners, while the Father, the Son, and the Spirit draw all men to Christ.

I agree that the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation... but it does nothing without God changing the hearts of men to accept it.
Matthew 11:27
Matthew 22:14
Matthew 24:22
Matthew 24:24
Matthew 24:31
Luke 18:7
Romans 8:28-30
Romans 8:33
Colossians 3:12
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Titus 1:1

So why do you continue to make such foolish statements as "Not from God, so all from me"?

To answer your final question, I suppose this stems from my nasty habit of taking into consideration the whole of Scriptures, and not misusing a few choice verses pulled out of context here and there.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Someone really hates the elect, hates that God elects, hates that only those elected unconditionally will be saved, and hates that God is God and not themselves. So, these go into attack mode; Romans 9:20.

That's the real issue here. Romans 8:7, 8; 1 Corinthians 2:14. Someone here is hostile towards God over this. In fact several are.

Now, since this scenario is true, and the hate is real, who in the spiritual realm would want such a person to think they're converted?

 

[justbyfaith]

So God in His sovereignty made us sovereign over Him, so that He can only work within the confines of what we dictate through our wills? How is that all powerful?

He could certainly override our wills if He chose to do so; but He has sovereignly chosen not to do so, but rather to act as a gentleman concerning our acceptance of His grace and favour.

The only way Arminians can claim they do not believe in works righteousness is if they claim that somehow having faith is not a work.

Faith isn't a work, Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on this. Since we are saved through faith and not of works, how can faith be works?

How is faith not a work, when it fits the literal definition of one?

Because the scripture defines it as not being a work. We are not saved by our works; but we are saved by our faith. Therefore if I am saved, it is not by my works that I am saved. But I am saved through my faith in Jesus. So faith and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation.

 

[Enoch111]

...man cannot of himself come to God...

And that is why the Gospel must be preached (accompanied by power of the Holy Spirit). But you still don't get it, neither do you believe in, or accept, the power of the Gospel, even though Scripture tells you that it is indeed the power of God unto salvation. That's called pure UNBELIEF.

...A man enslaved to Satan does not contemplate the things of God...

And that is why the Gospel must be preached (accompanied by power of the Holy Spirit). But you still don't get it, neither do you believe in, or accept, the power of the Gospel, even though Scripture tells you that it is indeed the power of God unto salvation. That's called pure UNBELIEF.

I agree that the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation... but it does nothing without God changing the hearts of men to accept it.

You agree HYPOTHETICALLY, otherwise you would believe that it is the Gospel itself under the power of the Spirit which changes the hearts of men to receive Christ. Why do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ insisted that the Gospel must be preached to every creature in all the world, unless it had the power to bring men to Christ?

The problem is you are skipping over the entire chapter of Romans 9

Not at all. Indeed I gave you an exposition of Romans 9 to show you that unconditional election HAS NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE, since if it were true each and every Jew would be saved.

1. There are two very significant truths in Romans 9: (1) if unconditional election were true, every Jew would have been saved and (2) Paul would not have been so heavy-hearted for his Jewish brethren if they had simply believed the Gospel, and received Christ as their Messiah. Thus he says in Romans 10: BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL.

2. Romans 9 also tells us that God elects specific individuals for specific purposes, which fits in with His plans and purposes (NOT FOR SALVATION):

ABRAHAM ELECTED OVER LOT
ISAAC ELECTED OVER ISHMAEL
JACOB ELECTED OVER ESAU
MOSES ELECTED OVER AARON (TO LEAD ISRAEL)

3. Furthermore, there are some wicked individuals who are elected to show God's wrath against sin, because of their unrelenting wickedness, e.g. the Pharaoh who opposed Moses and God. It is Pharaoh who repeatedly hardened his heart, after which God hardened his heart so that he was damned for eternity.

 

[Mjh29]

And that is why the Gospel must be preached (accompanied by power of the Holy Spirit). But you still don't get it, neither do you believe in, or accept, the power of the Gospel, even though Scripture tells you that it is indeed the power of God unto salvation. That's called pure UNBELIEF.

And that is why the Gospel must be preached (accompanied by power of the Holy Spirit). But you still don't get it, neither do you believe in, or accept, the power of the Gospel, even though Scripture tells you that it is indeed the power of God unto salvation. That's called pure UNBELIEF.

You agree HYPOTHETICALLY, otherwise you would believe that it is the Gospel itself under the power of the Spirit which changes the hearts of men to receive Christ. Why do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ insisted that the Gospel must be preached to every creature in all the world, unless it had the power to bring men to Christ?

Not at all. Indeed I gave you an exposition of Romans 9 to show you that unconditional election HAS NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE, since if it were true each and every Jew would be saved.

1. There are two very significant truths in Romans 9: (1) if unconditional election were true, every Jew would have been saved and (2) Paul would not have been so heavy-hearted for his Jewish brethren if they had simply believed the Gospel, and received Christ as their Messiah. Thus he says in Romans 10: BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL.

2. Romans 9 also tells us that God elects specific individuals for specific purposes, which fits in with His plans and purposes (NOT FOR SALVATION):

ABRAHAM ELECTED OVER LOT
ISAAC ELECTED OVER ISHMAEL
JACOB ELECTED OVER ESAU
MOSES ELECTED OVER AARON (TO LEAD ISRAEL)

3. Furthermore, there are some wicked individuals who are elected to show God's wrath against since because of their unrelenting wickedness, e.g. the Pharaoh who opposed Moses and God. It is Pharaoh who repeatedly hardened his heart, after which God hardened his heart so that he was damned for eternity.

And through all of this you deal with exactly 0 of the verses I provided.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

And through all of this you deal with exactly 0 of the verses I provided.

They never do bro. It's a waste of time. They preach some carnal, worldly, free will, anti-gospel, philosophy of man, while hating on God's decrees and ways.

We preach Scripture and they won't address it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They never do bro. It's a waste of time. They preach some carnal, worldly, free will, anti-gospel, philosophy of man, while hating on God's decrees and ways.

We preach Scripture and they won't address it.

We preach scripture, they preach themselves.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

We preach scripture, they preach themselves.

Yep.

 

[justbyfaith]

2Co 4:5, For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

2Co 4:5, For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

You preach yourself. Quoting a text of Scripture doesn't undo this fact.

 

[justbyfaith]

You preach yourself. Quoting a text of Scripture doesn't undo this fact.

Ain't a fact, jack...

The truth of the matter is that surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is a necessary factor in everyone's salvation who has it.

The scripture that I quoted is true to our demeanor and attitude...we are here as servants of the most high God...and we do not preach ourselves but Him...that is the bottom line.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Initially, the ENTIRE NATION entered into the Old Covenant...this means they were all elected, right or wrong?

Of all the nations of the earth, God picked one nation, but not everyone in the nation;
Roman's 9:6-8.
God elected a remnant out of the nation to be saved.
Now God has His elect children scattered world wide.Not every person in the world, but a multitude scattered worldwide.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Man has free will because the Lord, in His sovereignty, ordained it to be so. God is still the Almighty One.

Except it never says that anywhere in scripture.
You say it, but scripture does not.

 

[justbyfaith]

Except it never says that anywhere in scripture.
You say it, but scripture does not.

Scripture implies free will in many places.

Why does God command all men everywhere to repent?

Why doesn't He just pull on their heart strings and change them as elect, without the call and commission to repent?

 

[brakelite]

Only an elect who is alive in God understands the verse Rom 10:17. If you were an elect you too would have heard the Gospel but sad to say, you are dead. You are correct of course that faith is only for the elect. It is a gift Eph 2:8.

You are so off base presuming to condemn folk who profess faith in Christ but who do not subscribe to your version of events. What hypocricy to wrongly accuse others of working their way to heaven because they "choose to follow Christ" and trust in His grace and mercy but then turn around and claim they are dead in their sin still because despite their profession of Christ you decide they are lost because you judge God hasn't elected them! What makes you think God had elected you? On what basis do you think you are converted? What evidence do you offer as proof that you are among this special "elect of God"? Because of your Calvinist belief? You are trusting in your belief to be saved?
Is not Christ the saviour and able to save to the uttermost anyone who calls upon His name?

I'm certain that since Lazarus had/has an immortal soul, that while he was dead in the grave, his spirit was crying out to be delivered from death. So it may be that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead in response to the request of his heart's cry as one that was dead.

Lazarus was not, is not, immortal. Only God is immortal.

That does not mean his spirit had left his body.

The Bible says live once, die once and then the judgement. Is that a lie?

The Bible says no such thing. Jesus says there are two resurrections. One to life, one to condemnation. Those resurrected to commendation experience the second death.

John 11
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

KJV John 11
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Romans 10:17 is proof positive that faith is not innate in fallen man. If it was, then hearing the word would not bring faith

KJV Romans 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
While Paul says faith comes through hearing the word of God, he is not saying faith comes only by the word of God.
Surely you aren't suggesting God incapable of instilling faith in someone through other means? You are limiting God to His word yet proclaim Him as sovereign?

 

[brakelite]

What I would like to know is how does a Calvinist know he is saved if he had no part to play in the decision? If the Calvinist was not required to accept the gift... If he was not obligated to choose to accept or reject... How does he know he has it?

 

[Stranger]

What I would like to know is how does a Calvinist know he is saved if he had no part to play in the decision? If the Calvinist was not required to accept the gift... If he was not obligated to choose to accept or reject... How does he know he has it?

Irregardless what view one takes, Armenian or Calvinist, until God turns on the lights, you cannot see. (2 Cor. 4:6) "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

As the blind man said to the Pharisees, (John 9:30) "The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvelous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes."

'Seeing' is just a natural action of having ones eyes opened. Can't see without the Light.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

You do not even know your own theology, let alone the true Gospel of Grace. Limited Atonement means Christ died ONLY FOR THE ELECT. And that is heresy, since the Bible states over and over again that Christ died for the sins of the whole world -- all mankind.

There is no such thing as "Universal Atonement". It is Unlimited Atonement that is taught in Scripture.

No one can be saved by works of any kind whatsoever. That is crystal clear, and those who reject Calvinism DO NOT teach salvation by the works of the Law or any good works (including water baptism).

Salvation is purely by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. And at the same time God commands all men everywhere to repent.

When you misrepresent what others believe you are lying before God and men. Just remember that, and get a proper understand of your theology, as well as what the Bible ACTUALLY says, as well as what those who reject your false gospel believe. Five Point Calvinism is a subversion of the true Gospel.

If you think as first century Jews did. You would think "whole world" means gentiles and no longer Jews only.