Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[justbyfaith]

Here we are sharing the true Gospel with others

It is not the true gospel; for there is scripture that is in contradiction to its tenets. The true gospel will not be contradicted by any scripture.

with accompanying verses, yet time and again we are repelled with their own verses, not realizing Scripture does not refute another Scripture.

Then 1) show how the scriptures that are presented in contradiction to your view reconcile with your scriptures; and 2) realize that it is not scripture that we are refuting but your opinion and interpretation of what it says.

I know I’m right as the Holy Spirit witness with my spirit I am a child of God.

No doubt you are a child of God, if the Holy Spirit indeed bears witness with your spirit that it is so; but I would venture to say that He is not testifying to you that everything purported by Calvinism is true to the word of God; since there are scriptures that contradict the concepts of Calvinism.

I've made several attempts to have brotherly dialog with you, to get you to use proper context, to accept biblical correction (Romans 5:2 for example), have offered an olive branch to you and to others as well. This was not accepted by you.

I think that I missed those attempts for the fact that I placed you on Ignore quite some time ago (from time to time I do peek in to see if there is anything that I need to respond to among all of the ignored posts). So it is not that I didn't accept your attempts to engage in "brotherly dialogue" but that I simply was unaware of them.

Unfortunately you've done the same, even stooping to call me Satan,

It may appear so if you were to go and look at one specific post; but if you look at subsequent posts it should become evident that I was not calling you satan but the spirit that was behind your accusations in that instance.

First, go show where, by quoting in context, what I've said is untrue, called you names, was arrogant &c. Then I'll apologize.

It's all right, I have no need for you to apologize to me. But you have a need to apologize to the Lord, for your own sake. So go and look back through the posts that you have posted and view them as if they were being posted to you by someone else; and judge them accordingly.

 

[justbyfaith]

And I believe, given your total lack of arrogance, and in your well known humility,

Why thank you for the compliment!

 

[justbyfaith]

It's true...I once received an award for humility and proceeded to pin it up on my wall...

 

[brakelite]

The arrogance that is perceived among many Calvinist apologists stems from the exclusivity that claims only Calvinists know and understand the gospel. It stems from the concept offered by Calvinists that only they will in the end be saved because everyone else is working their way into heaven. It stems from the adamant assertion that only they are chosen, are the elect, because God in His grace has only been gracious to them... God has not shown grace towards anyone else because everyone else is in error... If they were Calvinists and agreed with them, and Calvin, on the gospel, that would be proof that God has been gracious toward them thus they are saved. The arrogance spoken of is not 'name calling', nor is it intended as an insult. We are simply calling things as we see them.

I grew up Roman Catholic. The only version of the gospel I ever heard, if it could at all be called the gospel, was full of error. Yet all my life I had an inner absolute conviction of the reality of God, though I lived as one who did not. Until I was reminded of Him when asked by a friend, " do you think God approves of the life you are living?". Later that night I confessed my sinfulness and asked God to make my life such as He would approve of. I had never read the Bible. I had never heard the gospel taught as it ought to be. I hadn't set foot inside a church building for 10 years. But the person who awoke the next morning was an entirely different person than the one who went to bed the night before. I have no qualms about giving God the glory for what He had done for me... Not just at Calvary, but through Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary all He has done for me since. I take no credit for who I am today...I confess no work done on my part toward my justification or sanctification... For without Him I am nothing.
Yet such a testimony as above does not fit into the Calvinists narrow vision of the way God is supposed to do things. So according to them, my prayer of faith would be considered a work because it wasn't founded on their interpretation of how the gospel was to be presented. Sorry, but God works in many different ways... He is not willing that any should perish and He will do all He can to bring the whole world into the kingdom...if they believe.
2 Cor 5:14,15 and Hebrews 2:9 tells us that Christ had already died for every man, this elected every man to be saved. We do not initiate a relationship with Him, but merely respond in faith to the tensional He has initiated with us. He knocks... We open. Opening the door is not work. We are not earning anything by simply saying yes, I believe. Help me.

 

[justbyfaith]

The arrogance that is perceived among many Calvinist apologists stems from the exclusivity that claims only Calvinists know and understand the gospel. It stems from the concept offered by Calvinists that only they will in the end be saved because everyone else is working their way into heaven. It stems from the adamant assertion that only they are chosen, are the elect, because God in His grace has only been gracious to them... God has not shown grace towards anyone else because everyone else is in error... If they were Calvinists and agreed with them, and Calvin, on the gospel, that would be proof that God has been gracious toward them thus they are saved. The arrogance spoken of is not 'name calling', nor is it intended as an insult. We are simply calling things as we see them.

I grew up Roman Catholic. The only version of the gospel I ever heard, if it could at all be called the gospel, was full of error. Yet all my life I had an inner absolute conviction of the reality of God, though I lived as one who did not. Until I was reminded of Him when asked by a friend, " do you think God approves of the life you are living?". Later that night I confessed my sinfulness and asked God to make my life such as He would approve of. I had never read the Bible. I had never heard the gospel taught as it ought to be. I hadn't set foot inside a church building for 10 years. But the person who awoke the next morning was an entirely different person than the one who went to bed the night before. I have no qualms about giving God the glory for what He had done for me... Not just at Calvary, but through Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary all He has done for me since. I take no credit for who I am today...I confess no work done on my part toward my justification or sanctification... For without Him I am nothing.
Yet such a testimony as above does not fit into the Calvinists narrow vision of the way God is supposed to do things. So according to them, my prayer of faith would be considered a work because it wasn't founded on their interpretation of how the gospel was to be presented. Sorry, but God works in many different ways... He is not willing that any should perish and He will do all He can to bring the whole world into the kingdom...if they believe.
2 Cor 5:14,15 and Hebrews 2:9 tells us that Christ had already died for every man, this elected every man to be saved. We do not initiate a relationship with Him, but merely respond in faith to the tensional He has initiated with us. He knocks... We open. Opening the door is not work. We are not earning anything by simply saying yes, I believe. Help me.

Amen, that bears witness to me as being faithful.

 

[APAK]

The arrogance that is perceived among many Calvinist apologists stems from the exclusivity that claims only Calvinists know and understand the gospel. It stems from the concept offered by Calvinists that only they will in the end be saved because everyone else is working their way into heaven. It stems from the adamant assertion that only they are chosen, are the elect, because God in His grace has only been gracious to them... God has not shown grace towards anyone else because everyone else is in error... If they were Calvinists and agreed with them, and Calvin, on the gospel, that would be proof that God has been gracious toward them thus they are saved. The arrogance spoken of is not 'name calling', nor is it intended as an insult. We are simply calling things as we see them.

I grew up Roman Catholic. The only version of the gospel I ever heard, if it could at all be called the gospel, was full of error. Yet all my life I had an inner absolute conviction of the reality of God, though I lived as one who did not. Until I was reminded of Him when asked by a friend, " do you think God approves of the life you are living?". Later that night I confessed my sinfulness and asked God to make my life such as He would approve of. I had never read the Bible. I had never heard the gospel taught as it ought to be. I hadn't set foot inside a church building for 10 years. But the person who awoke the next morning was an entirely different person than the one who went to bed the night before. I have no qualms about giving God the glory for what He had done for me... Not just at Calvary, but through Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary all He has done for me since. I take no credit for who I am today...I confess no work done on my part toward my justification or sanctification... For without Him I am nothing.
Yet such a testimony as above does not fit into the Calvinists narrow vision of the way God is supposed to do things. So according to them, my prayer of faith would be considered a work because it wasn't founded on their interpretation of how the gospel was to be presented. Sorry, but God works in many different ways... He is not willing that any should perish and He will do all He can to bring the whole world into the kingdom...if they believe.
2 Cor 5:14,15 and Hebrews 2:9 tells us that Christ had already died for every man, this elected every man to be saved. We do not initiate a relationship with Him, but merely respond in faith to the tensional He has initiated with us. He knocks... We open. Opening the door is not work. We are not earning anything by simply saying yes, I believe. Help me.

Hey bro: I believe your prayer of faith was not self-work for salvation. I'm not even close to being a Calvinist if they believe it is work. I don't do labels anyway as I said once or twice before. I believe you prayed from your heart and that God set you up as he did me, in my similar history - a bit different and then similar. I also believe he already chose and saved you before you knew of it. He just had to complete the deal, your conversion, at at time and place of his choosing. Yes, the Father works differently to salvation with all folks although there are some things that are always present or constant. 1. The Father's purpose for you, being chosen and already saved from his perspective. 2. His grace and gift faith or belief he gave to you to open up your heart and repent 3. Then to give you his Son's spirit, to become a new person...to become righteous.

In saying all this, I also believe that you could never please the Father if you used your carnal/ natural free-will to pray you prayer to the Father. It would not be salvation at all. Yes, free-will is always present, and at that time as well, although I believe at that moment in your heart of sincerity it yielded abruptly to the will of God, FOR YOUR SAKE. Well, your heart has/had to perfect in God's eyes, right? It had to be in order for him to justify giving you his Son's spirit.

Bless you brother

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

The arrogance that is perceived among many Calvinist apologists stems from the exclusivity that claims only Calvinists know and understand the gospel. It stems from the concept offered by Calvinists that only they will in the end be saved because everyone else is working their way into heaven. It stems from the adamant assertion that only they are chosen, are the elect, because God in His grace has only been gracious to them... God has not shown grace towards anyone else because everyone else is in error... If they were Calvinists and agreed with them, and Calvin, on the gospel, that would be proof that God has been gracious toward them thus they are saved. The arrogance spoken of is not 'name calling', nor is it intended as an insult. We are simply calling things as we see them.

Well said. Truth is truth. And it is simply carnal human pride which prevents Calvinists from honestly admitting that their gospel is false.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Hey bro: I believe your prayer of faith was not self-work for salvation.

Bless you brother

APAK

For the record no one here is saying his prayer was a work.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The arrogance...

Your post is a complete straw man. Instead of dealing with texts that you been show which refute your position, you, yet once again, offer up a post to ridicule.

Name calling, misrepresenting, libel, same old thing sir, then you give a doxology to yourself of what you've done, offer out of context Scripture, which forms a misnomer which distorts the Gospel. Your usage of texts that point to you, and state things not in them is telltale. You don't understand the Gospel, that it is Soli Deo Gloria. If you'd listen, and stop adding to Scripture it would help immensely. You probably don't realize you do it, it's out of tradition.

Read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Study it. Pray over it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"brakelite,

[Sorry, but God works in many different ways... He is not willing that any should perish and He will do all He can to bring the whole world into the kingdom...if they believe.
2 Cor 5:14,15 and Hebrews 2:9 tells us that Christ had already died for every man, this elected every man to be saved. We do not initiate a relationship with Him, but merely respond in faith to the tensional He has initiated with us. He knocks... We open. Opening the door is not work. We are not earning anything by simply saying yes, I believe. Help me.]
Using 2 pet3:9 out of context does not make it true. God is very willing that multitudes perish. He has died only for the children given to Him by the Father.
Bible verses are not like a poem you discuss in high school English class where you suggest whatever meaning you want to.
No one spoken of in 2 per 3:9 is v
Going to perish, not one of them.

 

[justbyfaith]

God is very willing that multitudes perish.

Wow.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Wow.

Wow indeed...mt7 :21-24...this is found in all bibles, the word for many...is multitudes

 

[brakelite]

God is very willing that multitudes

And therein is the sum total of complete misunderstanding pertaining to the character of the God that underpins Calvinist theology. Nothing further needs to be said.

 

[justbyfaith]

Wow indeed...mt7 :21-24...this is found in all bibles, the word for many...is multitudes

I disagree. I believe that the scripture is clear that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Of course His justice requires that if a man does not repent, that he face condemnation at his judgment.

But God does not have ill-will towards any of His "offspring" (Acts 17:28): He is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16).

He desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

Now if you are going to contradict my pov, then give scripture that shows that God desires that any of His people be damned.

Matthew 7:21-24,

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24, Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Also Matthew 7:13-14,

Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

indicate that we must seek the Lord to be able to find Him.

But the fact is that He has placed in front of every man an invitation to seek Him (see, for example, Psalms 27:8); and those who do not seek Him are condemned not because He had ill-will towards them and decided to condemn them apart from them being able to do anything about it; rather, they are condemned because they did not believe on the name of the only begotten Son of God: they did not receive the forgiveness that is offered to them so freely: they rejected a costly gift and insulted the One who desired to give it to them.

Which indicates that it was indeed offered to them in love; and which also indicates that God loved them and offered salvation to them...even to all men.

If He had not, then He would have been unjust in condemning them, if He had not at least offered to them redemption.

People who find themselves in hell after being judged will have no one to blame but themselves.

But of course they can blame the Lord if they did not have at least some kind of testimony showing them that they needed God.

Creation testifies to the reality of God. Conscience testifies to the reality of our responsibility to Him. If we obey the first light and believe in God, we will receive the second light. If we obey the second light and recognize that we are sinners, the Lord will not fail to reveal to us the third light, the light of Christ and the gospel message.

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

And therein is the sum total of complete misunderstanding pertaining to the character of the God that underpins Calvinist theology. Nothing further needs to be said.

What needs to be said is your hatred for Gods revealed truth. You do not like the true and living God as He has revealed Himself.
The misunderstanding is found in your fragmented inconsistent thoughts concerning truth

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I disagree. I believe that the scripture is clear that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Of course His justice requires that if a man does not repent, that he face condemnation at his judgment.

But God does not have ill-will towards any of His "offspring" (Acts 17:28): He is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16).

He desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

Now if you are going to contradict my pov, then give scripture that shows that God desires that any of His people be damned.

Matthew 7:21-24,

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24, Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Also Matthew 7:13-14,

Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

indicate that we must seek the Lord to be able to find Him.

But the fact is that He has placed in front of every man an invitation to seek Him (see, for example, Psalms 27:8); and those who do not seek Him are condemned not because He had ill-will towards them and decided to condemn them apart from them being able to do anything about it; rather, they are condemned because they did not believe on the name of the only begotten Son of God: they did not receive the forgiveness that is offered to them so freely: they rejected a costly gift and insulted the One who desired to give it to them.

Which indicates that it was indeed offered to them in love; and which also indicates that God loved them and offered salvation to them...even to all men.

If He had not, then He would have been unjust in condemning them, if He had not at least offered to them redemption.

People who find themselves in hell after being judged will have no one to blame but themselves.

But of course they can blame the Lord if they did not have at least some kind of testimony showing them that they needed God.

Creation testifies to the reality of God. Conscience testifies to the reality of our responsibility to Him. If we obey the first light and believe in God, we will receive the second light. If we obey the second light and recognize that we are sinners, the Lord will not fail to reveal to us the third light, the light of Christ and the gospel message.

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You have heard these passages explained many times and refuse to believe revealed truth.
2 pet3:9 is speaking of the fact that not one elected person will perish. You act as if you have not read the whole chapter.I am sure you do not understand it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You have heard these passages explained many times and refuse to believe revealed truth.
2 pet3:9 is speaking of the fact that not one elected person will perish. You act as if you have not read the whole chapter.I am sure you do not understand it.

I disagree. I believe that the scripture is clear that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Of course His justice requires that if a man does not repent, that he face condemnation at his judgment.

But God does not have ill-will towards any of His "offspring" (Acts 17:28): He is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16).

He desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

Now if you are going to contradict my pov, then give scripture that shows that God desires that any of His people be damned.

Matthew 7:21-24,

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24, Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Also Matthew 7:13-14,

Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

indicate that we must seek the Lord to be able to find Him.

But the fact is that He has placed in front of every man an invitation to seek Him (see, for example, Psalms 27:8); and those who do not seek Him are condemned not because He had ill-will towards them and decided to condemn them apart from them being able to do anything about it; rather, they are condemned because they did not believe on the name of the only begotten Son of God: they did not receive the forgiveness that is offered to them so freely: they rejected a costly gift and insulted the One who desired to give it to them.

Which indicates that it was indeed offered to them in love; and which also indicates that God loved them and offered salvation to them...even to all men.

If He had not, then He would have been unjust in condemning them, if He had not at least offered to them redemption.

People who find themselves in hell after being judged will have no one to blame but themselves.

But of course they can blame the Lord if they did not have at least some kind of testimony showing them that they needed God.

Creation testifies to the reality of God. Conscience testifies to the reality of our responsibility to Him. If we obey the first light and believe in God, we will receive the second light. If we obey the second light and recognize that we are sinners, the Lord will not fail to reveal to us the third light, the light of Christ and the gospel message.

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Not all men are God's children.
There is not any teaching about second and third light given
You make this up with no scripture. Salvation is not a game you invent, like red light, green light

 

[Preacher4Truth]

And therein is the sum total of complete misunderstanding pertaining to the character of the God that underpins Calvinist theology. Nothing further needs to be said.

More needs to be said. Have you ever read the Bible through? I highly doubt it. Don't you deny the deity of Christ? Aren't you SDA?

The fact you don't know the attributes and character of God is glaring. You wish to erase his attribute of executing justice as if you're embarrassed over such behavior.

Yet he does so, and wills to do just that upon whom he wills. And you know what? He is completely just in doing so, and this is obvious, seeing he knows all things, that he intended to do so to whom he wills. He has also intended to save whom he wills and no more.

Read Exodus 33. Read Romans 9. Try reading your bible through at least once, that way you can say you read some books of scripture through in your life only one single time.

One of your problems is you don't think God is just in executing his justice at will unless he gives every person a chance to vote themselves into heaven. In other words if he justly damns a sinner to hell for their sin, you deem him unfit to be God. You think God is OBLIGATED to man and owes him something.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

More needs to be said. Have you ever read the Bible through? I highly doubt it. Don't you deny the deity of Christ? Aren't you SDA?

The fact you don't know the attributes and character of God is glaring. You wish to erase his attribute of executing justice as if you're embarrassed over such behavior.

Yet he does so, and wills to do just that upon whom he wills. And you know what? He is completely just in doing so, and this is obvious, seeing he knows all things, that he intended to do so to whom he wills. He has also intended to save whom he wills and no more.

Read Exodus 33. Read Romans 9. Try reading your bible through at least once, that way you can say you read some books of scripture through in your life only one single time.

One of your problems is you don't think God is just in executing his justice at will unless he gives every person a chance to vote themselves into heaven. In other words if he justly damns a sinner to hell for their sin, you deem him unfit to be God. You think God is OBLIGATED to man and owes him something.

Good points here P4T.
have you noticed the saints in heaven do not have trouble with Gods righteous judgment?

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

It is like they do not read such verses.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"justbyfaith,

[But God does not have ill-will towards any of His "offspring" (Acts 17:28): He is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16).]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;