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Enoch111

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No one who commits "sins unto death called lawlessness 1 John 3:4" are in Christ.
More FALSE DOCTRINE from the one who claims to be Spirit-filled. Sound doctrine and the fulness of the Spirit go hand-in-hand.

The apostle John is addressing Christians throughout his epistles. And when he speaks about the sin unto death He uses the term BROTHER.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:16,17)

The contrast is between a brother sinning a sin NOT unto death vs the same brother sinning a sin unto death. Same person, two different kinds of sins. You pray for one kind of sin, but you do not pray for the other kind, since that brother (or sister) will receive his just punishment from God -- premature PHYSICAL death.

So that totally refutes your false statement above. All brethren in Christ are indeed in Christ, and nothing can change that since the New Birth is irreversible.
 
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marks

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In his view, there is no one who will be cast into a lake of fire. All humanity is redeemed and accepted by God, whatever it is they believe. Those who are faithful to whatever it is they believe are received by God just the same as those who trust in, and follow Jesus.

I have never heard him say this, so E, please confirm. That is called Universalism, and I do not agree with Universalism. Nor purgatory to pay for your sins so you can go to heaven.

I may not be correct here. I've just perused some more of his posts, where he does teach a lake of fire.

I'll need to try to find what I saw before. Or thought I saw.

Much love!
 

marks

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I have never heard him say this, so E, please confirm. That is called Universalism, and I do not agree with Universalism. Nor purgatory to pay for your sins so you can go to heaven.

I've just been reading some more of his posts, and OK, he speaks of the wicked, unsaved, being cast into the lake of fire. But I did come across where he talks of the redeemed, God's children, being sent to outer darkness.

Hm.

Whenever I ask him for clarification on anything, well, I'm sure he has me on ignore.

I do seem to remember him writing that all are reconciled by Christ's death, therefore none are condemned to the lake of fire. It looks like I may be mistaken.

Much love!
 
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Episkopos

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cc: @Episkopas These are what marks says we disagree on...

No one who commits "sins unto death called lawlessness 1 John 3:4" are in Christ. But we can be while walking in the Spirit and commit unknown trespasses.



In Christ there is no sin...ever. Many claim that there is sin in Christ...because they are imputing sin to Christ...a make believe Jesus. So they call their absence of Christ...the mixture of themselves and their beliefs ABOUT Jesus and call that being in Him. But this is iniquity.

There are different proximities to God. Some follow Jesus but from a great distance. They are like sunday believers. Instead of getting closer to the Lord some of these change the doctrines of the bible to appear closer than they are. So they add sin to sin.

Then there are those who seek Him every day so that they are sensitive to the Spirit...and indeed follow the Spirit. These may sin...but it depends on that sensitivity. I think that these will still sin at times although not overtly. These are LED by the Spirit...but still walk in their own power. They follow Jesus faithfully but from a small distance...like the Israelites in the wilderness who followed the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night.

But IN Christ there is no spot or wrinkle of sin. To walk there is to walk as Jesus walked...in His power and love. To be there is to be holy as God is holy. And there is a keeping power of God there...no more need to seek Him. It is a walk in Zion ...the fulness of grace and the resurrection life of the world to come. This the the high calling in Christ. It is glorious.
 

Episkopos

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I have never heard him say this, so E, please confirm. That is called Universalism, and I do not agree with Universalism. Nor purgatory to pay for your sins so you can go to heaven.

People confuse the truth that God is God of the whole world ...with universalism. My detractors think Jesus only died for the church...and then they claim to be those who are saved by condemning all who don't sit in pews as they do. The Pharisees did that very same thing.

But I believe the wicked are cast in the lake of fire to perish there...as I've said many many times. Then there are the saints who rule and reign with Christ. The saints rule over the righteous who have satisfied God's commands to love others and speak and act truthfully in the fear of the Lord. And the filthy are they who pretend to be of the Spirit but speak lies about God and His people. They promote iniquity. These are cast into outer darkness.

Just check out Rev. 22:11...the key to understanding the bible and the 4 destinies of man. (also the 4 rivers that come out from Eden...etc)
 

CharismaticLady

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Unless we are walking in the Spirit, I believe we default into the works of the flesh.

That would be possible, which is why Paul commanded to not quench the Spirit. Break that commandment, and you may not inherit the Kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21.

I see the flesh as always operative, but so long as we are walking in the Spirit, then the flesh has no outlet for it's misdeeds.

As some say, it depends on the one you feed. I know some on the forums believe the carnal nature takes precedence and we are only sometimes in the Spirit. I believe in always being in the Spirit, and rarely for only the shortest period of time being in the flesh. Resist the devil and he will flee.

I try to avoid saying works, as that's a buzzword for justification by works. I say, performance, in the lines of "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". We know this does not mean to work for your salvation, rather, "perform the work of your salvation, that is, do in your life what God is doing in you.

I think we agree. Whatever good you do in the flesh is works. Whatever good you do in the Spirit is His works through you.

Failure to do this leaves us immature, lacking in fruit and reward, but still redeemed, and still born again, if in fact we were born again.

What I believe has become a dangerous doctrine is OSAS. Also when are we "saved;" at the beginning or at the end? There are some translations that use what I think is the better phrase of "being saved." I can still remember going to church for 30 years and not being reborn. That is a long time of being one breath away from hell! Not everyone in church has the indwelling Holy Spirit leading them, and they are the ones who believe that the blood of Jesus covers them with an invisibility cloak that God can't see the sins they keep committing underneath. There is one guy on this site who believes this and says, "I don't sin; my flesh does, but I don't."

I believe you have to grow. If you don't bear fruit, Jesus may lop you off completely, rather than just being pruned. John 15.

We may have faith, but have not added virtue, and knowledge, et al. But we still have faith. I know, it's a poor way to live. So I try to do what I can to encourage others to trust that God really can make your deepest wish true, to be holy as He is holy.

Let's see what Peter says.

8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I think Peter may disagree. So does James on faith alone. "O foolish man, that faith without works is dead. What I consider personal works is growing and maturing in the Spirit and the divine nature. At the end, we must be righteous or holy to enter heaven. Revelation 22:11

So I see this as a matter of two people, both with salvation, reborn, one who performs the work of their salvation as is rewarded accordingly, one who does not, and is saved, but as through fire.

The second one is based on 1 Corinthians 3 about ministries burning up, and they are saved as through fire. I see that as someone that is only teaching peripheral false doctrines, but the core issues regarding Christ and Him crucified are intact. Many take that verse out of context. It is about ministry, not personal holiness.
 

marks

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But I believe the wicked are cast in the lake of fire to perish there...as I've said many many times.
Ok, then what is the factor that distinguishes who is wicked and who is not?

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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Well I most certainly hope I'm operating in the gift of teaching!!!!

If not . . . :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::oops:

The most dour passage of Scripture for me is, Let not many be teachers, knowing we shall receive a stricter judgment, for in many things we offend all! Sad but true!

And I truly know I do not have the gift of Adminstration! I can barely run the church potluck.

Yes, I believe in the spiritual gifts.

I just heard an excellent teaching on the spiritual gifts from John MacArthur, whom I had thought was cessationist. I'm sure he was, I think!

But he gave an excellent teaching! Something like, the gifts in Scripture are like the colors on a palette, and God takes His brush, and dips a little into this gift, and more of that gift, and paints you!

To me, the spiritual gifts are God's empowerment to perform service. I am anything but cessationist.

@Hidden In Him

Much love!

You described two gifts; one from Jesus Ephesians 4 (teaching, which is an office), and one from the Father Romans 12 (Administration). I was asking about the last one of the Trinity, the Spirit 1 Corinthians 12 or Mark 16:16-18.

I heard a set of tapes by MacArthur on the gifts of the Spirit in the 1990's. I wonder how much he could have changed? I have all of his books on the gifts against Pentecostals, so is this a book I haven't read, or on youtube? I'd like to hear it. And what gifts does he address? From the Father, Jesus, or actually of the Spirit?
 

marks

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My detractors think Jesus only died for the church...and then they claim to be those who are saved by condemning all who don't sit in pews as they do.

This would be a broad brush, sweeping generalization, and incorrectly applied.
 

CharismaticLady

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More FALSE DOCTRINE from the one who claims to be Spirit-filled. Sound doctrine and the fulness of the Spirit go hand-in-hand.

The apostle John is addressing Christians throughout his epistles. And when he speaks about the sin unto death He uses the term BROTHER.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:16,17)

The contrast is between a brother sinning a sin NOT unto death vs the same brother sinning a sin unto death. Same person, two different kinds of sins. You pray for one kind of sin, but you do not pray for the other kind, since that brother (or sister) will receive his just punishment from God -- premature PHYSICAL death.

So that totally refutes your false statement above. All brethren in Christ are indeed in Christ, and nothing can change that since the New Birth is irreversible.

Not everyone is born again with a divine nature that hates sin.

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
 

CharismaticLady

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But I did come across where he talks of the redeemed, God's children, being sent to outer darkness.

I don't believe any who die in Christ, having endured to the end are in outer darkness. I believe their spirit goes to heaven. What I do believe about "outer darkness" and who is there are the unsaved awaiting resurrection, then the lake of fire.
 

marks

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I heard a set of tapes by MacArthur on the gifts of the Spirit in the 1990's. I wonder how much he could have changed? I have all of his books on the gifts against Pentecostals, so is this a book I haven't read, or on youtube? I'd like to hear it. And what gifts does he address? From the Father, Jesus, or actually of the Spirit?

I don't know all his views on this. I heard his sermon on the radio the other day. I've just found it online. This is from earlier this year.

We’ve been incorporating verse 28 of chapter 12, in which there are mentions of gifts as well as verses 8 to 10. We’ve also added Ephesians 4 and Romans 12. And so in all of those scriptures we have pulled together the listing of the categories of spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit has granted to the church.Now we find ourselves in part 4 of reiterating these gifts and studying them in order to gain an understanding of what they are and how they operate. It is clear to us at this time that the Spirit of God has given to the church gifts, enablements, manifestations, energizing services. All those different words are used to describe the same things. They are Holy Spirit enablements allowing us to minister to one another within the body of Christ, so that we are not spectators, but rather we are involved in the actual operation of the church, carrying out the ministry as God has designed it and the Spirit of God has planned it.

The Permanent Edifying Gifts, Part 3

Much love!
 

Prayer Warrior

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I'm saying that 1 John 1:9 is to BECOME a Christian. We are cleansed of every type of sin there is - Jesus blood is that powerful. He then gives us His sinless Spirit to walk in. So if we willfully sin afterwards, say steal or the married pastor runs off with his secretary, Jesus is NOT automatically our Advocate. We KNOW what we are doing, and as Hebrews 10:26-31 says, we have trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I'm going to try this one more time. :)

I have never read or heard anyone teach that the 1st chapter of 1 John is written to unbelievers. I usually don't consult commentaries, but I checked 5 or 6 out to see what they say. The ones I looked at do not support your view on this. I believe that your statement, "that 1 John 1:9 is to BECOME a Christian" is incorrect.

Not everyone is born again with a divine nature that hates sin.

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

The verses you quoted in 1 John 3 have to do with PRACTICING sin. Here are the verses in the Amplified Bible.

1 Jn 3:4-9 (AMPC)
4 Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God’s law by transgression or neglect—being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).
5 You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [essentially and forever].
6 No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].
7 Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.
8 [But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].
9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
 

marks

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You described two gifts; one from Jesus Ephesians 4 (teaching, which is an office), and one from the Father Romans 12 (Administration). I was asking about the last one of the Trinity, the Spirit 1 Corinthians 12 or Mark 16:16-18.
I only mentioned 2 for reference.

I don't really like to get into discussion of who has what gift. But I do believe that God gives us supernatural ability as it pleases Him, that these giftings are taught several places in the Bible, that not everyone has any particular gift, and that they are intended to function apart from our own talents and abilities.

I don't really parse between them, though recognizing that they are different, and operate differently. But I see everyone's life with God so completely personalized, that's what I like about MacArthur's description of the painter's palette. Man, it seem so strange to say that . . . "what I liked about MacArthur's". What joy!

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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In Christ there is no sin...ever. Many claim that there is sin in Christ...because they are imputing sin to Christ...a make believe Jesus. So they call their absence of Christ...the mixture of themselves and their beliefs ABOUT Jesus and call that being in Him. But this is iniquity.

There are different proximities to God. Some follow Jesus but from a great distance. They are like sunday believers. Instead of getting closer to the Lord some of these change the doctrines of the bible to appear closer than they are. So they add sin to sin.

Then there are those who seek Him every day so that they are sensitive to the Spirit...and indeed follow the Spirit. These may sin...but it depends on that sensitivity. I think that these will still sin at times although not overtly. These are LED by the Spirit...but still walk in their own power. They follow Jesus faithfully but from a small distance...like the Israelites in the wilderness who followed the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night.

But IN Christ there is no spot or wrinkle of sin. To walk there is to walk as Jesus walked...in His power and love. To be there is to be holy as God is holy. And there is a keeping power of God there...no more need to seek Him. It is a walk in Zion ...the fulness of grace and the resurrection life of the world to come. This the the high calling in Christ. It is glorious.

Yes, I agree. What you are describing is a mature true Christian. But just to clarify, 1 John 3:5 is talking about lawlessness - sins unto death. There are also sins not unto death that even a mature Spirit filled Christian walking in the Spirit is able to commit, but we are still sinless because the blood of Jesus is continuing to cleanse those sins. 1 John 1:7. And if you are walking in the Spirit you will be forgiving those who trespass against you, the condition to having your trespasses cleansed.
 

Steve Owen

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Do what Paul did; go to bed with a totally clear conscience.
Paul went to bed knowing that he was the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15. Note the Present Tense), but also knowing that all his sins, past, present and future were washed away by the blood of Christ (Acts 13:39 etc.). But this knowledge did not encourage him to sin all the more (Romans 6:1-2); on the contrary, it encouraged him to resist sin (Romans 6:12-14) and to to seek, in the power of the Spirit, to put to death the relic of sin which survives, not in the heart of the believer, but in his mortal body (Colossians 3:5).
 
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CharismaticLady

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I have never read or heard anyone teach that the 1st chapter of 1 John is written to unbelievers. I usually don't consult commentaries, but I checked 5 or 6 out to see what they say. The ones I looked at do not support your view on this. I believe that your statement, "that 1 John 1:9 is to BECOME a Christian" is incorrect.

Let me ask you something. is 1 John 1:6 a Christian? Will they go to heaven?
 

CharismaticLady

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People confuse the truth that God is God of the whole world ...with universalism. My detractors think Jesus only died for the church...and then they claim to be those who are saved by condemning all who don't sit in pews as they do. The Pharisees did that very same thing.

But I believe the wicked are cast in the lake of fire to perish there...as I've said many many times. Then there are the saints who rule and reign with Christ. The saints rule over the righteous who have satisfied God's commands to love others and speak and act truthfully in the fear of the Lord. And the filthy are they who pretend to be of the Spirit but speak lies about God and His people. They promote iniquity. These are cast into outer darkness.

Just check out Rev. 22:11...the key to understanding the bible and the 4 destinies of man. (also the 4 rivers that come out from Eden...etc)

To me, Revelation 22:11 is not four categories, but two. Either hell or heaven. I see outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as the dead unsaved, awaiting resurrection, then the lake of fire. No Christians that will enjoy eternal life will ever be in outer darkness. That is close to the teaching on purgatory which I don't believe either.