Working to repent

[ArkangeMikail]

The Son of God incarnated Himself and died on the cross to redeem people.

Because of this sacrifice, Christians don't need to work to go to Heavens.

However, what if a Christian truly believes in Jesus and gives Him his life, but later commits a big sin? Like adultery, grand theft, murder, or rape...

Is that Christian immediately forgiven without doing anything? Without repenting? If that Christian does not need to work, then why being good? Is morality pointless? Does God send sinful people to Heavens because He died for them and so forgave them anyway? So Christians murderers will go to Heavens?

Or does that Christian need to work to repent? Do penance? Be purified? Go through Purgatory?

Some people say that actually this Christian was never really saved. They say true faith leads to good works.
However, that Christian actually had true faith, yet he still commits a big sin. How do you explain that some Christians really have faith in Jesus-Christ, but they still commit big sins?

 

[Debp]

Some people say that actually this Christian was never really saved. They say true faith leads to good works.
However, that Christian actually had true faith, yet he still commits a big sin. How do you explain that some Christians really have faith in Jesus-Christ, but they still commit big sins?

I'm of the belief that the person was never really saved.

A person indwelt by the Holy Spirit will feel miserable (conviction of the Holy Spirit) if they start to go into sin. So I don't think they would go too deeply into sin without returning to the Lord and confessing it. Confessing a sin helps us to feel a sense of restored fellowship with God.

 

[ScottA]

The Son of God incarnated Himself and died on the cross to redeem people.

Because of this sacrifice, Christians don't need to work to go to Heavens.

However, what if a Christian truly believes in Jesus and gives Him his life, but later commits a big sin? Like adultery, grand theft, murder, or rape...

Is that Christian immediately forgiven without doing anything? Without repenting? If that Christian does not need to work, then why being good? Is morality pointless? Does God send sinful people to Heavens because He died for them and so forgave them anyway? So Christians murderers will go to Heavens?

Or does that Christian need to work to repent? Do penance? Be purified? Go through Purgatory?

Some people say that actually this Christian was never really saved. They say true faith leads to good works.
However, that Christian actually had true faith, yet he still commits a big sin. How do you explain that some Christians really have faith in Jesus-Christ, but they still commit big sins?

It is correct to call all Christians, Christians, for they all are followers of Christ to some degree. Some more than others and some less even by far. But all who are rightly called Christians are not "in Christ" and He in them. Some are only yet seekers of truth, following Christ to see.

To answer your first question, would Christ commit "adultery, grand theft, murder, or rape?" No--meaning Christ is not in those who do such sins. Actually, Christ would not even do lesser sins. But that is not to say that Christ is not in all who continue to sin--it means they have only followed Him in part, and in turn, Christ is not fully in them, by that same measure.

When Paul said, "For me, to live is Christ", what he was saying, is that Christ was fully in him and he was fully in Christ--he had decreased and Christ had increased in him (as John the Baptist said must occur).

Meanwhile, we are prone to carry the baggage of our former self until it fully passes away in death. In other words, what scripturally is said to occur instantly with God--that is to "pass from death to life everlasting"--we in our own time are prone to draw out. Which, ultimately, means very little--for God looks at our whole life, and still makes the same decision--for with him "It is finished."

 

[ArkangeMikail]

I'm of the belief that the person was never really saved.

A person indwelt by the Holy Spirit will feel miserable (conviction of the Holy Spirit) if they start to go into sin. So I don't think they would go too deeply into sin without returning to the Lord and confessing it. Confessing a sin helps us to feel a sense of restored fellowship with God.

Do you deny the faith of person? If someone says they believe in Jesus-Christ, but later apostatize or commit a big sin, then it means they never really had faith? I think it's really judgemental. We can't judge the faith of people.

Confessing the sin is an action. Then does that mean that Christians actually need to work for salvation?

 

[Debp]

Do you deny the faith of person? If someone says they believe in Jesus-Christ, but later apostatize or commit a big sin, then it means they never really had faith? I think it's really judgemental. We can't judge the faith of people.

Confessing the sin is an action. Then does that mean that Christians actually need to work for salvation?

Jesus said we will know false teachers by their fruit. In some instances we need to judge so we do not follow after a false teacher.

I'm not talking about confessing your sins to a priest which would be a work in the Catholic Church. I'm talking about a personal relationship with the Lord... confessing to the Lord if you feel you did something wrong. That restores your sense of fellowship with the Lord.

I hope you will check out those two Bible based churches I gave you some weeks ago. The pastor will be very happy to answer your questions. That is what pastors do, besides counseling and preaching.

 

[ArkangeMikail]

Jesus said we will know false teachers by their fruit. In some instances we need to judge so we do not follow after a false teacher.

I'm not talking about confessing your sins to a priest which would be a work in the Catholic Church. I'm talking about a personal relationship with the Lord... confessing to the Lord if you feel you did something wrong. That restores your sense of fellowship with the Lord.

I hope you will check out those two Bible based churches I gave you some weeks ago. The pastor will be very happy to answer your questions. That is what pastors do, besides counseling and preaching.

I understand that we can judge by the fruits. However, I think it's a mistake to condemn a criminal, who was a christian but committed a crime, and say they never really had faith.

I think it's proof that we can have salvation, then lose it. We need to work to keep the faith.

I also think that if we sin, we need to pay for it. God only forgives if the sin is paid. That's why we need penance and purgatory.

I will stay in the Catholic Church. I'm not convinced by Protestant arguments. (sorry, I didn't go to those protestant churches, because they are at the other side of my town, and also I'm too busy going to the catholic church ^^)

 

[Debp]

That's why we need penance and purgatory.

There is no such thing...those are only teachings of the Catholic Church, not Scriptural teachings. You seem to gravitate to a form of religion, rather than to Christ Himself as your Savior.

Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins once...no works of ours can ever merit salvation. Because without Christ's imputed righteousness, our works are as a filthy rag compared to God's holiness.

Have you been born again as Jesus said we must be (see John chapter 3)? That is, did you confess your sins to the Lord and ask Him to come into your life? Then the Holy Spirit will come to indwell you as Jesus promised us, helping you to live the Christian life.


9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9. (No need to do penance.)

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

 

[Debp]

God only forgives if the sin is paid.

And that is why Jesus Christ went to the cross...to pay for our sins.

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2.

16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18.

 

[ArkangeMikail]

There is no such thing...those are only teachings of the Catholic Church, not Scriptural teachings. You seem to gravitate to a form of religion, rather than to Christ Himself as your Savior.

Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins once...no works of ours can ever merit salvation. Because without Christ's imputed righteousness, our works are as a filthy rag compared to God's holiness.

Have you been born again as Jesus said we must be (see John chapter 3)? That is, did you confess your sins to the Lord and ask Him to come into your life? Then the Holy Spirit will come to indwell you as Jesus promised us, helping you to live the Christian life.


9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9. (No need to do penance.)

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

There is scriptural proof of purgatory, for example Jesus said: "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)."
The prison is the purgatory and we go out of prison when we pay our sins.

Religion teaches Christ as my Savior, so religion is a good thing.

Works don't merit salvation, that's true, however I think works is still necessary. Being virtuous requires effort. I see it like the body: God gave us our body, but we have to work to take care of it through healthy habits. Likewise God gave us our soul, but we have to take care of it through virtues, and this requires works.

What does it mean, to be born again? Since I have become Christian, I don't feel particularly different. I certainly do efforts to become a better person for the Lord and I have a better vision of what is perfection because of the doctrine taught by Jesus-Christ, I also started praying.

I don't believe we are born again in this life... Because obviously most Christians don't do miracles and are still sinners, some leave the faith. If we were really born again, it would probably be more spectacular. No, I believe we are really born again in the next life.
In this life, we must work to keep the salvation that God freely gave us.

 

[ArkangeMikail]

And that is why Jesus Christ went to the cross...to pay for our sins.

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2.

16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18.

I think there is the collective sin of mankind because of the original sin, that Jesus-Christ paid for, but there is still individual sins of every human being, that we must pay for.

 

[ArkangeMikail]

It is correct to call all Christians, Christians, for they all are followers of Christ to some degree. Some more than others and some less even by far. But all who are rightly called Christians are not "in Christ" and He in them. Some are only yet seekers of truth, following Christ to see.

To answer your first question, would Christ commit "adultery, grand theft, murder, or rape?" No--meaning Christ is not in those who do such sins. Actually, Christ would not even do lesser sins. But that is not to say that Christ is not in all who continue to sin--it means they have only followed Him in part, and in turn, Christ is not fully in them, by that same measure.

When Paul said, "For me, to live is Christ", what he was saying, is that Christ was fully in him and he was fully in Christ--he had decreased and Christ had increased in him (as John the Baptist said must occur).

Meanwhile, we are prone to carry the baggage of our former self until it fully passes away in death. In other words, what scripturally is said to occur instantly with God--that is to "pass from death to life everlasting"--we in our own time are prone to draw out. Which, ultimately, means very little--for God looks at our whole life, and still makes the same decision--for with him "It is finished."

So there is different degrees of Christ-like behavior in each Christian.

Does that mean that in order to increase Christ in me, I must work?

 

[Debp]

The prison is the purgatory and we go out of prison when we pay our sins.

Why did Christ die then? If we need to pay for our own sins. If we can pay for our own sins, then Jesus didn't need to die for our sins.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:8-11

Works don't merit salvation, that's true, however I think works is still necessary.

I agree Christians should seek to walk in the Spirit in our daily lives. When we are born again we receive the new nature which helps us live godly in Christ.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:16-18

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Galatians 5:14

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-25

What does it mean, to be born again? Since I have become Christian, I don't feel particularly different. I certainly do efforts to become a better person for the Lord and I have a better vision of what is perfection because of the doctrine taught by Jesus-Christ, I also started praying.

When you ask the Lord to forgive you and sincerely believe on Him as your Savior, you will be born again.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I don't believe we are born again in this life... Because obviously most Christians don't do miracles and are still sinners, some leave the faith. If we were really born again, it would probably be more spectacular. No, I believe we are really born again in the next life.
In this life, we must work to keep the salvation that God freely gave us.

When you are born again you receive the Holy Spirit to indwell you...as Jesus promised to believers. This gives you both a spiritual nature and of course your human nature. When you walk in the Spirit, you are following the new spiritual (born again) nature.

 

[ScottA]

So there is different degrees of Christ-like behavior in each Christian.

Does that mean that in order to increase Christ in me, I must work?

"Must work?" No. But rather "will work." For God and Christ--if He is in you--is always working.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hebrews 121:7 -If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

 

[Papa Smurf]

The Son of God incarnated Himself and died on the cross to redeem people. Because of this sacrifice, Christians don't need to work to go to Heavens.

Hello Arkange, that's certainly a HUGE part of our being saved and receiving eternal life from God, both the Incanation and the Cross, that is However, if His death and shed blood, which pays the required price for our redemption and the forgiveness of our sins .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10; Hebrews 9:22, 10:4, only covers the sins that we've committed in the past (IOW, up to the moment in time when He saves/justifies us) what, then, is the basis for the redemption and forgiveness of the sins that we commit going forward/of the sins that we commit ~after~ He justifies and saves us, IOW

There is actually another part to this, as our salvation is based upon two important, but different things, innocence ~and~ righteousness, but let's leave that discussion for later. In the meantime, here are the verses and passages that I just mentioned above, along with another one to consider, as well

Romans 5 (NASB 95')​

8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ​

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. ​

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. ​

​

Hebrews 9 (NASB 95')​

22 According to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and ~without the shedding of blood~ there is no forgiveness. ​

​

Hebrews 10 (NASB 95')​

4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. ​

​

2 Corinthians 5 (NASB 95')​

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Papa Smurf]

However, what if a Christian truly believes in Jesus and gives Him his life, but later commits a big sin? Like adultery, grand theft, murder, or rape...Is that Christian immediately forgiven without doing anything? Without repenting?

The Apostle John gave instructions to Christians of all levels of maturity in the faith (and he even included himself in the mix this time ... please see the pronouns below, in bold), about what we, as believers, need to do to be forgiven of our ongoing sins.

1 John 1 (NASB 95')​

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.​

Of course, forgiveness, in this case, is concerned with the "condition" of our already established and ongoing relationship with our heavenly Father, NOT with our salvation/or "position" in Christ, which is neither changed nor lost when we sin (anymore than children are booted out of their human families when they fail to do what their parents ask them to do).

Also, as King David said to God (after having committed the sins of both adultery and murder), "Return unto me the ~joy~ of Thy salvation" (He did not ask to be saved again because he knew that his salvation was not lost, even though his sins were heinous, rather, he wanted the ~closeness~ of His relationship with God to be restored to what it once was, because ~that~ was what he lost when he sinned).

Psalm 51 (ASV)​

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; ​

And renew a right spirit within me. ​

11 Cast me not away from Thy presence; ​

And take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. ​

12 Restore unto me the ~joy~ of Thy salvation; ​

And uphold me with a willing spirit.​

If that Christian does not need to work, then why be good?

To honor and glorify the One who so clearly loved & loves us, first and foremost by choosing to come here and die on the Cross in our stead to save us. I also choose to "be good" for the simple reason that I love Him too, and because I know that honoring, glorifying and obeying Him is pleasing to Him, and that's all I've wanted to do since the day that He saved me (I don't do it to curry favor with Him or anything like that, and I wouldn't do so, even it that was possible .. which it is not).

I believe that our value to God rests in who we are to Him (His true sons and daughters by adoption), NOT because of what we do (or fail to do) for Him. As the hymn* says, "Thou my great Father and I, Thy true son", and that is the relationship that we have with Him, Father and child.

~Be Thou my vision, O Lord of my heart*

Quite frankly, the works that He has us do are all for our sake (and for the sake of others), because God doesn't "need" anything from us.

Is morality pointless? Does God send sinful people to Heavens because He died for them and so forgave them anyway? So Christians murderers will go to Heavens?

We are ALL sinners, Arkange, Christians too. The only difference is that we (Christians) are also saved by God's grace (by His unmerited favor towards us, IOW). Of course, His grace is hardly unmerited, it's simply unmerited, by us!

Does that Christian need to work to repent? Do penance? Be purified? Go through Purgatory?

What "work" can a Christian do to save himself According to the Bible, the only "penance" that can satisfy the price that God requires for our redemption and the forgiveness of our sins is the death & shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God .. e.g. Hebrews 9:22. Even our own death is not enough to pay the required price to God, which is why He alone is capable of being our Savior, and it's also why the Bible tells us that the Lake of Fire is eternal.

How do you explain that some Christians really have faith in Jesus-Christ, but they still commit big sins?

We are sinners saved by grace who are made God's workmanship as new creatures in Christ (with a new nature and a new set of desires that are given to us by Him). This means that when we sinned before we were saved, we did so in accord with our old nature. It also means that whenever we sin now, we do so in opposition to our new nature, which is why sinning (which used to be fun for us before we were saved) seems so horrible to us now.

The problem is, our old nature, while subdued and secondary to our new nature, remains with us until the day that we die, so we will always be faced with the possibility of a battle going on between our two natures, and sometimes the old nature wins the day, unfortunately

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I have several questions that I've been meaning to ask you, but those will have to wait. Also (in closing), here is one of my favorite Christian quotes for you to consider, by pastor and theologian, Charles Spurgeon. If you have the chance, please let me know what you think of it. Thanks

​

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm of the belief that the person was never really saved.

A person indwelt by the Holy Spirit will feel miserable (conviction of the Holy Spirit) if they start to go into sin. So I don't think they would go too deeply into sin without returning to the Lord and confessing it. Confessing a sin helps us to feel a sense of restored fellowship with God.

Correct . When a sheep heads into sin , its warned by the SPIRIT to flee such a thing .
NOW if one does do an error , God leads such a one to repentance . He does so by using men as well to correct
the member in error .
Its when folks go into sin , stay in sin , justify sin , justify others sins
THAT WE have a problem . THIS is proof ONE has NOT the SPIRIT and thus are not HIS .
Because as you know and i know and that by grace , THE SPIRIT CONVICTS us of sin
IT DONT LEAD US INTO SIN . many have not the Spirit because many are not t ruly HIS .
And i do not say this to condemn them for they condemn themselves .
I say this to remind us . And the SPIRIT has us to look out one for the other .
TO GLORIFY AND HONOR THE SON , THE FATHER .
I truly wish seeker friendly had been rejected by the churches , but many did not and thus went down
the wrong road . But this dont mean we ought not to correct them. FOR SOME will hear and repent .
Though many will also double down and defend their sin and their stance .
We do what we do for the HONOR of GOD and for the sakes of others . AND ONLY TRUTH honors GOD
and only t ruth saves , and t ruth would reprove sin and error , NOT ALLOW sin and error .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Correct . When a sheep heads into sin , its warned by the SPIRIT to flee such a thing .
NOW if one does do an error , God leads such a one to repentance . He does so by using men as well to correct
the member in error .
Its when folks go into sin , stay in sin , justify sin , justify others sins
THAT WE have a problem . THIS is proof ONE has NOT the SPIRIT and thus are not HIS .
Because as you know and i know and that by grace , THE SPIRIT CONVICTS us of sin
IT DONT LEAD US INTO SIN . many have not the Spirit because many are not t ruly HIS .
And i do not say this to condemn them for they condemn themselves .
I say this to remind us . And the SPIRIT has us to look out one for the other .
TO GLORIFY AND HONOR THE SON , THE FATHER .
I truly wish seeker friendly had been rejected by the churches , but many did not and thus went down
the wrong road . But this dont mean we ought not to correct them. FOR SOME will hear and repent .
Though many will also double down and defend their sin and their stance .
We do what we do for the HONOR of GOD and for the sakes of others . AND ONLY TRUTH honors GOD
and only t ruth saves , and t ruth would reprove sin and error , NOT ALLOW sin and error .

@amigo de christo

 

[Jack]

Working to repent​

No need to WORK!

Romans 10:8-10
8 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Just like the thief on the cross!

 

[One 2 question]

The Son of God incarnated Himself and died on the cross to redeem people.

Because of this sacrifice, Christians don't need to work to go to Heavens.

However, what if a Christian truly believes in Jesus and gives Him his life, but later commits a big sin? Like adultery, grand theft, murder, or rape...

Is that Christian immediately forgiven without doing anything? Without repenting? If that Christian does not need to work, then why being good? Is morality pointless? Does God send sinful people to Heavens because He died for them and so forgave them anyway? So Christians murderers will go to Heavens?

Or does that Christian need to work to repent? Do penance? Be purified? Go through Purgatory?

Some people say that actually this Christian was never really saved. They say true faith leads to good works.
However, that Christian actually had true faith, yet he still commits a big sin. How do you explain that some Christians really have faith in Jesus-Christ, but they still commit big sins?

The Son of God incarnated Himself and died on the cross to redeem people.

Here is an answer. Jesus does the redeeming of those His Father chooses. Then Their Spirit does the long work of transformation/sanctification.

It has much less to do with us and what we do than what most people try to make out.

Like a gem hunter. They find a large rock they know has a gem hidden within then takes it to their workshop.

What he does with it is up to him. If he chooses to leave it untouched and it grows mold, moss, dust and cobwebs on it then that's back on its finder and owner. Jesus has no obligation to do anything with those He redeems. Just as He had no obligation to go look for it in the first place.

His obligation is only to His Father and His will. It is pretty simple don't you think?