Works Salvation is FALSE

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FaithWillDo

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Works Salvation

James_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

This is my rebuke against works salvation. I say these words with kindness to you, but I also get straight to the point. Capital letters are meant to emphasize my point, because I still love you my friend. As well, I am VERY VERY STRICT when it comes to salvation!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Dear Harold,
I certainly agree with the points you made on faith vs. works. And I certainly agree that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.

If a person believes in the Doctrines of Free Will and Hell, they are operating under a "works" based belief system. This system is "of this world" and it ultimately comes from Satan. The only "works" involved in mankind's salvation are the works of Christ. Mankind can contribute nothing towards their own salvation because mankind is spiritually dead and a dead person cannot do anything. Mankind is totally at the mercy of Christ to come to us and save us. And Christ most certainly will save us all. To accomplish this great work, Christ established a plan. In this age, He is only saving the Elect, the First Fruits of His harvest. In the final age, He will bring in the full and final harvest of mankind at the end of that age. No one will be left in the field to rot. This is the true Good News which we should all be proclaiming to the world.

I do have three questions for you.

1). Do you understand the Pathway to Salvation which Christ has established for His Elect to follow in this age?

This pathway is very involved and includes "great tribulation" and the receiving of the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. A large number (maybe even most) of the teachings of Christ present portions (here a little and there a little) of this pathway.

Also, all "end-time" prophecy is teaching on the spiritual events of the Pathway to Salvation and those events will all happen within the lives of each of Christ's Elect before they die. They are not one-time future world events as is commonly taught.

Christ's second coming should be understood as "is, was and will be coming" (Rev 1:4 & 8). It is a reoccurring event which first happened to the Jewish Elect in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. Revelation even says that Christ will come quickly and that the time is "at hand". It even says the seals are NOT SEALED and that if a person is going to be saved in this age as a First-Fruits, they must "keep the sayings of the prophecies of the book". Those "sayings" certainly includes all the seals, trumpets and vials. And since mankind has no works to perform, Christ will make sure His Elect keep the sayings of the prophecy. For the most part, His Elect are not even aware that they are "keeping" the sayings. It is only when an Elect believer is "turned" (converted) and looking back that they will see Christ and the work He has done in their life (Rev 1:12).

2). Do you understand the spiritual language of Christ?

The truth of scripture is "veiled" from everyone except a converted Elect believer. They are the only ones who are given "eyes that can see". The churches of the world are places where the "blind lead the blind". The story of the Tower of Babel is a "type" for the confusion of languages within the church.

3). Do you understand that the "church" fell away near the end of the Apostles ministries and that "wolves" (via the spirit of anti-Christ) devoured the church?

Paul called this event the "apostasy". Nothing has changed within the church since that time and even the Elect will experience this apostasy.

If you are not sure of your answers to my questions, I would be happy to freely share with you what the Lord has given me.
Thanks,
Joe
 

Michiah-Imla

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The only "works" involved in mankind's salvation are the works of Christ.
Mankind can contribute nothing towards their own salvation

“…giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:5-10)
 

360watt

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"aion; a space of time, an age" is where your "eternal" comes from tho see. Not "aidios," which means "forever"

ha well im not saying to not hope for salvation, i hope you understand; ive been saved more times than i could count :)
you've only gotta be saved once. Jesus' salvation is once and for all :)

That's the good news.

Hebrews 6-- is a passage that gets taken out of context and isn't about losing salvation. It's about the impossibility of putting Christ back on the cross to save you again.. because it's already been done.

I think the language of Hebrews 6 would suggest these are saved people. But 'fall away' doesn't mean 'lose salvation'. At some point most believers 'fall away'.. get caught up in sin. A prime example is the problem with internet porn use among believers. There are high internet users on this site.. therefore there is also a high chance many of them access porn regularly.

Also the passage about sinning willfully in Hebrews 10...and there no longer being a sacrifice for sins.. that's Hebrew believers who if they sin.. think they can go back to old ways and offer up bulls and goats still, to please God. They can't do that.. because Jesus is the ultimate once and for all Lamb.

Hebrews 10-- sacrifice for sin.. is every other time about animal sacrifice.. therefore the weight of probability is that the passage about there no longer being a sacrifice for sin is also about animal sacrifice.

The Hebrew believers were being admonished to keep to the New Testament faith of following Jesus and knowing His all sufficient sacrifice once and for all. They were going back to old ways thru Judaism and thinking their sacrifices of bulls and goats were making them righteous again.

The same problem was addressed by Paul to the churches in Galatia.. of Jews who were going back to the old ways but are actually believers in New Testament churches.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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it's already been done.

“…thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:20-22)

It’s not already been done.

And it’s quite a sight to behold seeing those who twist the warning passages in Hebrews accusing others of taking scriptures “out of context”.
 

FaithWillDo

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“…giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:5-10)
Dear Michiah-Imla,

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

To properly understand what Peter is saying here requires a high level of understanding.

The "calling" occurs when an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit (the Spirit of Promise) and they enter the church (the called out ones). With the Early Rain, the believer will remain spiritually blind and carnally minded since the Early Rain of the Spirit is only an "earnest amount" (a down payment) of the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

While a called out believer waits for Christ to "come again" with the full amount of the Spirit (the Latter Rain), Peter encourages the called out believer to remain diligent and sober so that they will "never fall". Peter knows that with only an earnest amount of the Spirit, the called out believer is susceptible to falling away and losing their salvation.

At the time when Peter wrote his second letter, the wolves had not fully come into the church via the spirit of anti-Christ (the apostasy). Because of such, Peter and Paul both hoped to spare some of the church from experiencing the apostasy. For this reason, they both frequently encouraged their churches to remain watchful and faithful.

However, this was not going to be the case for the Gentile churches. Paul was later told that the pathway to salvation for the Gentiles would include a time of falling away and coming under the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ.

Christ referred to this time period as a time of Great Tribulation (Mat 24:21). It is during this time of great tribulation that a believer will become a Man of Sin who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. In this condition, the believer will "fall" and lose their salvation.

If the fallen away believer is one of Christ's Elect, Christ will "come again" to the believer and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With this full amount of the Spirit, the believer will have their spiritual blindness healed. As Christ appears to them through scripture, the brightness of His appearing will destroy the Man of Sin. After this occurs, the believer will be converted and their "calling and election" will have been made sure. They will never fall away again.

I know what I have said above will be hard for you to accept - in fact, it is impossible for anyone to accept unless Christ is in the process of healing their spiritual blindness.

There are many, many more verses of scripture I could present to you to support what I have stated above but it would take more space than this forum allows. However, I would be happy to address one or two specific questions though.

Joe
 

Michiah-Imla

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2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

To properly understand what Peter is saying here requires a high level of understanding.

And here it comes…

[the wordy and looooong “high level” explanation of a simple verse to nullify it]

You typed 430 words to “elucidate” on a passage with a mere 23 words.

“…a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.” (Ecclesiastes 5:3)

Don’t do that again.

It doesn’t reflect well on you.
 

FaithWillDo

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And here it comes…

[the wordy and looooong “high level” explanation of a simple verse to nullify it]

You typed 430 words to “elucidate” on a passage with a mere 23 words.

“…a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.” (Ecclesiastes 5:3)

Don’t do that again.

It doesn’t reflect well on you.
Dear Michiah-Imla,

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.


The truth of God's Word is given to us in Christ's spiritual language. It is also given to us "here a little and there a little". Those pieces must then be assembled in order to see the whole truth of a subject.

Also, the building of truth is built "line upon line" and "precept upon precept" - this means we must start with the milk of the Word before we can go onto the bread and strong meat.

Christ presents His truth in this manner to keep it "veiled" from everyone except His converted Elect who have been given "eyes that can see". But even then, it takes a great deal of time and study to unlock the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven and find the treasure of God.

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

If the way Christ presents His truth is "too wordy" for you, I suggest you take up the matter with Him.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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you've only gotta be saved once. Jesus' salvation is once and for all :)
Dear 360watt,
There are numerous scriptures which teach that a believer can lose their salvation.

Here is what you are not considering:

A believer can be "killed" by Satan and lose their salvation after they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. These verses below apply to a called out believer before they are converted.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Satan spiritually kills a called out believer by deceiving them through their carnality. He kills them by causing them to mix "works" with faith. He accomplishes it quite easily since a carnally minded believer prefers works over faith anyway:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

When a believer mixes "works" with faith, it causes them to commit the sin that leads to death:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

A believer commits adultery with Satan when they follow his ways which teach a salvation by "works". When a believer falls for his deception, they will fall from grace:

Gal 5:8 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Satan has the ability to deceive a called out believer because the Early Rain of the Spirit is only an "earnest amount" (a down payment) of the Spirit. Since the Early Rain is only a down payment of the Spirit and not the full amount, the believer will remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain.

Eph 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise (Early Rain), 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession (occurs at the Latter Rain), unto the praise of his glory.

The "redemption of the purchased possession" occurs when Christ comes again to one of His Elect with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the same baptism the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same baptism Paul received after being blind and in Damascus for three days. Paul "typed" receiving the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. His blindness "typed" the spiritual blindness which remains after a person receives the Early Rain.

The Latter Rain baptism is the salvation point and with it, the believer can never fall away again. At that time, their calling and election is "made sure" (2Pet 1:10).

So yes, a called out believer who only has the Early Rain of the Spirit can and WILL lose their salvation. It is part of the Pathway to Salvation an Elect believer must travel. However, a converted Elect believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit can never lose their salvation again.

Christ presented how & why a "called out" believer (one who only has the Early Rain) will lose their salvation in the verses below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents Satan's false truth. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since their house remains void of the truth of Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within them, they now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

John tells the church that the spirit of anti-Christ is coming and has in fact, already come:

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Paul calls the believer who has the indwelling spirit of anti-Christ the Man of Sin:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Christ also presented this truth again in "type" in the following story:

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, my name is LEGION; for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Here is a brief summary of the spiritual message this story teaches:

The man with the many unclean spirits represents the Elect just prior to their conversion. The stones the man uses to cut himself represents the Law of Moses (man’s work). The unclean spirit (Legion, who are many) represents the spirit of anti-Christ who has spiritually killed the man (he dwells among the tombs). When Christ comes to the man with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ drives out the spirit of anti-Christ by the brightness of His appearing. This represents the judgment of the Beast and False Prophet. Before this happens, Legion asks to go into the great herd of Swine feeding upon the hill. The Herd of Swine represents called out believers who are also chosen (“2000” in the herd). When Legion enters the Swine, they run into the sea and are killed just as the possessed man was killed earlier.

Joe
 

Brakelite

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Would saying we work towards salvation by doing works of righteousness qualify as someone having said we are saved by our works?
No-one is saved by their works. No ifs, buts. The wages of sin is death. The  only means I can atone for my sin is by dying. But my death will avail me nothing because without Christ I will remain dead, there will be no resurrection. I will have died in sin.
Our salvation is wholly dependant on Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, His resurrection, and his ministry as High Priest ion the heavenly sanctuary.
 
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Brakelite

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But christians fail in loving their neighbour, being kind and generous.. being forgiving and selfish. They aim to do these things of course, but never get it 100 percent right. That's why following commands aren't the way of salvation.. but by grace through faith in Jesus alone. Without Jesus covering our falling when we try to do the commands.. we would all.. every christian be doomed.

We sin all the time.. if not intentionally.. unintentionally.

God of course wants us to follow His commands and we are blessed when we are faithful. But we all falter.
I agree. None of us are without sin, and sinless perfectionism is an impossible goal. Or is it? Can we really claim that it's impossible to obey all God's commandments when He says Himself "all things are possible to them that believe"? And I agree with you that right there is the answer... To all that believe. I suggest that for those who do not believe obedience is possible, their hopes, or lack thereof, will be realized. Our character development doesn't come by law, by striving, by self determination, by hard work, but by faith. Righteousness comes by faith. Yet Jesus said that such righteousness comes to those who hunger and thirst for it. We have to make ourselves available, and we have to want it.
And there are mediums through which God works... Prayer, fasting, and His word. ("Sanctify them through the truth, Thy Word of Truth.")
 

Brakelite

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If you have to keep up a standard of behaviour.. for following God following being given salvation.. that is works based salvation. So though most won't say they do good works to get saved.. they say the same thing by saying they HAVE to do good works to KEEP saved.

This is all about the diety of Christ and His all sufficient atonement for sin. That's why works have zero to do with eternal salvation. Works are a voluntary response to having been given eternal life. Eternal life isn't a goal at the end of the line. It's a present possession for all who are saved.
I would add that we are justified now, but not yet saved. I will be saved if I continue to have faith in Jesus. And my works will give evidence of that faith. There are numerous people, far too many, who have turned away from faith. They may believe in the existence of God, as even demons do, but do not have faith on Jesus as Savior, Provider, Leader and Lord and God.
 

Brakelite

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well, right now you believe that Lazarus was a literal person, when he is almost surely an allegory for Israel or Hebrews or something. Lazarus is the Greek for "Eleazer"

and as for the rest, above, wasnt your baptism supposed to be a ritual "death?"
"Buried with Him in death, raised to new life in Him"
Well you would have to do some extensive allegorizing to support that theory... his sisters, the numerous times Jesus spent in their home, the plot to kill him by the Pharisees along with Jesus. I am hoping you can tell I am not speaking about the Lazarus in Luke 16, but the brother of Mary and Martha.
 

bbyrd009

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Well you would have to do some extensive allegorizing to support that theory... his sisters, the numerous times Jesus spent in their home, the plot to kill him by the Pharisees along with Jesus. I am hoping you can tell I am not speaking about the Lazarus in Luke 16, but the brother of Mary and Martha.
ya, the allegory seemed pretty thin to me at first too; but the evidence builds on itself, or at least it did to me. Dont really like recommending reading but ill leave a link, and you might seek on your own
discusses why there are two Lazar...ii? to. too, i mean

plus, if you just kinda contemplate it, Jesus spending time in "his home," his "sister" Mary, plot to kill him by the Pharisees writes itself, etc
 
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Brakelite

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"
and as for the rest, above, wasnt your baptism supposed to be a ritual "death?"
"Buried with Him in death, raised to new life in Him"
Totally, as I said in reference to Romans 6 on another thread... Another? Can't remember. But yes, God placing us in Christ on the cross. And we need to carry that cross the rest of our lives, with that death to self being demonstrated through self sacrificial love for others. Does not mean that we will never again act selfishly, but it does mean we now have power over sin and self that we previously never had.
 
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bbyrd009

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Totally, as I said in reference to Romans 6 on another thread... Another? Can't remember. But yes, God placing us in Christ on the cross. And we need to carry that cross the rest of our lives, with that death to self being demonstrated through self sacrificial love for others. Does not mean that we will never again act selfishly, but it does mean we now have power over sin and self that we previously never had.
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