Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

[Nancy]

Can two believers with differing views on doctrine BOTH have doctrinal purity? (unity)

I think that could elicit many differing replies! To me, all "religions" are exclusive. Like, you cannot be a 7th day Adventist and worship on Sundays. Cannot be a JW unless ... a Latter Day Saint unless...Islam, Judaism, Buddhist, Hindu...on and on. They are ALL exclusive as is Christianity.
I see clearly how attractive unity across the board, can be. And many today like my own young nieces and nephews', and greats are so immersed in the unity of today, which IMHO- is bringing on the One World Religion where it's all the worlds love, and emotions. They will have the carnal "feel good" thing going on. I just cannot see that as a viable way to be a servant of only ONE God.

"if even the very elect..."

IOW-we cannot have our cake and eat it too.... Yet

 

[David in NJ]

And I suppose the other question would be:
Do we need doctrinal unity?
Perhaps doctrinal unity was never meant to be.
Just something we thought was biblical. (not really)
There are other ways to find unity. (in doctrinal diversity)

Good Question: "Do we need doctrinal unity?"

That would be a straight-forward YES as we can see how this was demonstrated by the LORD in the Law, the Prophets, the Gospel,
the Apostles writings and Revelation.

Examples:
a.) Law - Deuteronomy 4:1-2
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

b.) Prophets - Jeremiah 5:30-31

c.) Psalms - Psalm 133:1

d.) Gospel of John emphasizes this over and over.

e.) Apostles
1.) Paul - 2 Timothy 4:1-5
2.) Peter - 2 Peter 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:14-18
3.) John - 1 John chapter 2


If doctinal purity was not an essential perspective of Scripture then this would be a false statement by our LORD
Revelation 22- 18-21
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.


IMPORTANT NOTE: Doctrinal purity does not save us, only faith in His Word = child like faith = Matthew 18:1-5

 

[St. SteVen]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Doctrinal purity does not save us, only faith in His Word = child like faith = Matthew 18:1-5

Then doctrinal purity/unity is not a salvation issue, correct? (doesn't save us - or damn us?)
If so, then how important is doctrinal unity?

PS -- the reference in Revelation only applies to the scroll of Revelation. (not the WHOLE Bible)

 

[face2face]

But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 Corinthians 11:17-19

The exercising of godly wisdom often requires varying degrees of knowledge, understanding and opposing positions of belief. If arguments arise, it will highlight those who as the writer to Hebrews 5 states:

"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

In reality, the difference between what is good and evil can be the slightest of margins - minuscule in fact. I know I was recently shot down for speaking about varying degrees of truth, but I believe we have another instance here (previously Apollos) but now the Corinthian body of believers, some on milk (still truth) and others on solid food (deeper truth)

I hope we dont go down the track of saying a superficial understanding of the truth, is not truth! We all started out as spiritual babies!

“Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation. ”

What's really interesting about the above is whether you are a JW, a Baptist or a Catholic - the same principles apply - each will apply their understanding and doctrines to their given situations. Now, what might be right for one, might not work for another, which is why I believe we have the Holy Book. God has left us many many divine principles to follow and work out the application for ourselves.

I still believe there is an absolute truth (@Titus @Wrangler @David in NJ ) and I also believe there is a right wisdom for every contentious situation - we may or may not find it...depending on whether we have sound doctrine and is it practiced?

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

IOW-we cannot have our cake and eat it too.... Yet

If it hasn't happened yet, will it ever happen?

 

[Nancy]

If it hasn't happened yet, will it ever happen?

I do believe that, yes it certainly will. When Gods plan comes to the final conclusion, those He will choose will be those who loved His son and followed the two commandments Jesus gave. He looks at the heart...motives, imaginations, truth...
Some say that the born agains destination is in the 3rd heaven with God the Father or on the New Earth, with Jesus Christ reigning. Myself? I say it will be in the New Earth

 

[face2face]

PS -- the reference in Revelation only applies to the scroll of Revelation. (not the WHOLE Bible)

A slight correction...the Word of God opens and closes with such a warning as this in Rev 22 (@David in NJ)

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Both Moses and Christ, the two great leaders of Israel whose combined efforts witness to law and grace give their testimony as one and warn against man adding to the words of divine revelation. The Judaisers were guilty of this, for they added the tradition of their elders as per Matt 15:3, and earned the rebuke of Christ by so doing.

The two denominations which "stand out" as having added to the Word of God throughout history would be the Roman Catholic Church and the Mormons.

Also note the care instructed to Joshua here : Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go.

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Then doctrinal purity/unity is not a salvation issue, correct? (doesn't save us - or damn us?)
If so, then how important is doctrinal unity?

PS -- the reference in Revelation only applies to the scroll of Revelation. (not the WHOLE Bible)

Agree - Rev 22:18 is specific for Revelation
HOWEVER
Proverbs 30:5-6 is for the ENTIRE Scriptures

NEVER make 'doctrinal purity/unity' a salvation issue = NEVER

This does not diminish that the Representation of God is founded, grounded, eternally established in TRUTH.

Let's examine this familiar passage = "In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Do you see doctrinal purity in this passage? i do
Do you see doctrinal unity in this passage? i do

Peace

 

[David in NJ]

But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 Corinthians 11:17-19

The exercising of godly wisdom often requires varying degrees of knowledge, understanding and opposing positions of belief. If arguments arise, it will highlight those who as the writer to Hebrews 5 states:

"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

In reality, the difference between what is good and evil can be the slightest of margins - minuscule in fact. I know I was recently shot down for speaking about varying degrees of truth, but I believe we have another instance here (previously Apollos) but now the Corinthian body of believers, some on milk (still truth) and others on solid food (deeper truth)

I hope we dont go down the track of saying a superficial understanding of the truth, is not truth! We all started out as spiritual babies!

“Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation. ”

What's really interesting about the above is whether you are a JW, a Baptist or a Catholic - the same principles apply - each will apply their understanding and doctrines to their given situations. Now, what might be right for one, might not work for another, which is why I believe we have the Holy Book. God has left us many many divine principles to follow and work out the application for ourselves.

I still believe there is an absolute truth (@Titus @Wrangler @David in NJ ) and I also believe there is a right wisdom for every contentious situation - we may or may not find it...depending on whether we have sound doctrine and is it practiced?

F2F

face2face said: I hope we dont go down the track of saying a superficial understanding of the truth, is not truth! We all started out as spiritual babies!"

AGREE 100%

 

[Gottservant]

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below.

Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs.
Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal unity?

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

Just to be clear, I do not seek Christian doctrinal unity. Defined as EVERYONE surrendering to a predetermined set of beliefs.
I believe that unity comes when we accept each other no matter our differences.
That we seek to understand each other instead of rejecting those whose Christian doctrine may differ.
Which presents its own set of challenges, of course. But that's another topic. (I hope) - LOL

I often tell people who question "what is the right denomination?" "we all die for the Lord"

That said, I know of someone who puts up with a Pastor who does not believe the nation (he is in) should be free and it hampers his faith a lot.

So unity, in one sense is inevitable, and in another sense, an inevitable snare.

How many denominations of Jesus, does it take for Him to believe in Himself?

 

[St. SteVen]

I do believe that, yes it certainly will. When Gods plan comes to the final conclusion, those He will choose will be those who loved His son and followed the two commandments Jesus gave. He looks at the heart...motives, imaginations, truth...
Some say that the born agains destination is in the 3rd heaven with God the Father or on the New Earth, with Jesus Christ reigning. Myself? I say it will be in the New Earth

So, no doctrinal unity in this lifetime? (age) Only in the afterlife?
Yet, many believers are insistent that it SHOULD be happening NOW.

Probably fueled by the prevailing idea that we are saved by doctrine. (not)
So, ONLY the correct and "TRUE" doctrine saves. "FALSE" doctrine damns.

This creates an environment of fear and tribalism. IMHO
Resulting in hatred and war.

Probably not what God has in mind for us. (sigh)

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[WalkInLight]

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below.

Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs.
Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal unity?

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

Just to be clear, I do not seek Christian doctrinal unity. Defined as EVERYONE surrendering to a predetermined set of beliefs.
I believe that unity comes when we accept each other no matter our differences.
That we seek to understand each other instead of rejecting those whose Christian doctrine may differ.
Which presents its own set of challenges, of course. But that's another topic. (I hope) - LOL

I look at things from a fruit perspective.
If ones emphasis is on one aspect of faith or interaction, then unity encourages personal experience with the Lord.
If compromise means diluting who the Lord is and how He works, then there is no compromise.

Healing on demand. Little gods heresy. Grace with no transformation or walk.
Unconfronted sin and lying. Domination by a leadership team.
Ceremony over personal expression. Non biblical authority or inspiration.
Denial of Jesus's words, or extending cultural interpretation over love and encouragement of ministry.

Todays hot topics are abortion, gay relationships, gender identity, divorce, adultery.

Emphasis on the sanctity of life, and our intended biological roles, and our commitments one to another.
The problem is a lack of love and intimacy, among people and true confusion as to how we define ourselves and accept who we are.

Part of maturity is to know how our minds experiment with alternatives to resolve our insecurities and often another situation
than the one we are in seems so much better.

 

[Wrangler]

I still believe there is an absolute truth (@Titus @Wrangler @David in NJ ) and I also believe there is a right wisdom for every contentious situation - we may or may not find it...depending on whether we have sound doctrine and is it practiced?

There certainly is absolute truth.

If one studies philosophy, the branch dealing with absolute truth is called metaphysics, which is the foundation for everything. The next classic branch of philosophy, is about HOW DO YOU KNOW, called epistemology. Sadly people are fully invested in their metaphysics but often ignore epistemology, which causes them to assert truths they really don't know are true.

Having said that, I reject the claim that there is a single right wisdom in response to every foolish situation but many right wisdom (beyond generic truisms like 'act in the Spirit of God' or be kind, etc.) Consider Solomon and the scenario with the 2 women claiming to be the mother of the baby. With today's technology a blood test could prove decisive. If not, certainly a DNA test.

I've been thinking about 'sound doctrine' when it comes to consolidation of power is killing the enemy, even if they are children. Two examples come to mind. Just yesterday I watched a Great Courses on Charlemagne. When his father died, he split his kingdom between his 2 sons. The other son died and many in that kingdom pledged allegience to his 2 sons rather than Charlemagne. To take his sister-in-law and nephews into custody, Charlemagne laid seige to, not one, but 2 cities. Contemporary sources state Charlemagne was successful in having them in custody.

There is extensive documentation of how Charlemagne put others in monestaries but not one document survives stating what happened to Charlemagne's nephews once he had them in custody. The lecturer tells us he undoubtedly murdered them. Then there is Octavian, who after defeating mark Anthony, pursued Cleopatra's son by Caesar. His forces caught up to him on a bridge and killed him.

These 2 men both established dynasties that passed the test of time, each lasted for over 1,000 years. Had they not had the wisdom to effectively consolidate power, there could have been power struggles preventing these great cultures from ever forming in the 1st place: The Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. So, it is not merely 'sound doctrine' that allowed them to personally achieve total power, it was better for societal development. Other wisdom might suggest the same scenario could have played out if these children were allowed to live. Could be. (And also, could not be, right?)

I suppose I am arguing for pragmatism and wisdom must certainly be pragmatic as well as theoretically insightful. Our own Bible is filled with morally dubious examples of wisdom. I was struck just last week at the end of Judges were 'grace' was extended to prevent a tribe of Israel from destruction by stealing Shiloh dancing girls to become their wives. In today's culture, this is called kidnapping, abduction, and raping. Doubtless any feminists today would say it is perfectly fine for men to take girls by force and call them ones wife by proclamation. Yet, it worked and was called grace.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your response.

If compromise means diluting who the Lord is and how He works, then there is no compromise.

This is the problem.
Doctrinal unity would require some level of compromise.
Unless by some means the standard happens to match your own set of beliefs.
Seems that everyone wants unity in theory, but would refuse it in practice.

Therefore, refusal to compromise prevents the possibility of doctrinal unity. IMHO

Part of maturity is to know how our minds experiment with alternatives to resolve our insecurities and often another situation
than the one we are in seems so much better.

Perhaps to "resolve our insecurities" about who we think "the Lord is and how He works"?

 

[Nancy]

So, no doctrinal unity in this lifetime? (age) Only in the afterlife?
Yet, many believers are insistent that it SHOULD be happening NOW.

Probably fueled by the prevailing idea that we are saved by doctrine. (not)
So, ONLY the correct and "TRUE" doctrine saves. "FALSE" doctrine damns.

This creates an environment of fear and tribalism. IMHO
Resulting in hatred and war.

Probably not what God has in mind for us. (sigh)

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

"This creates an environment of fear and tribalism. IMHO
Resulting in hatred and war." <--- It sure has, even more so as time passes, IMO.

There will be perfect unity under the A.C. new global one world religion I believe. It will be full of fun and games, and any and every will be welcomed...except for those who shun it. Satan impersonates Christ and fools many people. This is my belief from different readings and scripture and, it is already happening. Back in the day, I would have ran to a place like this only to become more worldly as that is what it will promote.

I've morphed from a raging liberal to more of a moderate. Our human emotions play much too much a part in our discernment and, that will sully our viewpoints, I was there for many years so I have been on both sides of the coin.

There will be those Christians who will avoid this new fangled, updated and worldly global "religion". I would like to share a video with you, and if you watch it, I'd love your feedback brother..."

It is 55 minutes, so if you have some time:

 

[Ezra]

doctrinal unity

the unity is in the person of Jesus Christ and him crucified born again

 

[Gottservant]

Probably fueled by the prevailing idea that we are saved by doctrine.

I've never heard that before, how interesting!

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks for your response.

This is the problem.
Doctrinal unity would require some level of compromise.
Unless by some means the standard happens to match your own set of beliefs.
Seems that everyone wants unity in theory, but would refuse it in practice.

Therefore, refusal to compromise prevents the possibility of doctrinal unity. IMHO

Perhaps to "resolve our insecurities" about who we think "the Lord is and how He works"?

Doctrinal unity can be cause for compromise if the doctrine itself is compromised.

 

[Gottservant]

My thoughts on this have changed, recently: in the beginning, our doctrine was incomplete - because even though Christ was there, we did not trust Him.

When we came to faith, after the beginning, we were given "hope" of completion, but not the entire substance of it - that is, our doctrine started to look similar, but we did not persist in unifying our perspective on doctrine, because we continued to have faith in God (not ourselves).

What we want then, while we are waiting to be redeemed, is faith in God, which is fit for good works, inspiration and reckoning - good works because we model them on Christ; inspiration, because we see the Holy Spirit work through our faith for God; and reckoning, because the world does not serve anyone but the Devil and they should know better and Jesus has said so!

I suppose when I look in the mirror, I see part of my doctrine, but the better half of me knows it won't be complete, until I reach Heaven (I may reach a milestone, but not the fullness of it, yet to be revealed in Glory in Christ Jesus).

 

[St. SteVen]

I've never heard that before, how interesting!

From my POV, doctrine is a man-made attempt to codify what they think the Bible says.

The Bible points us to God and to Jesus. Then humankind tries to explain how this works.
Doctrine is the result. It's what we argue about. If it was from God, there would be no argument.

Then we get hung up on which doctrines aright, and which doctrines are wrong.
Or religious preconceptions attract us to doctrine we think is TRUE, and repels us from doctrine we think is FALSE.