1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ye Are Saved BY Grace...

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Jordan, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    (kriss;20971)
    Amen Jake that is what Jag and I keep saying God would have no reason for gibberish it helps no one. It certanly is not what happened in Acts for 19 differnt languages were all understood at the same time even down to the very accents they had.
    Yes Kriss, it not only helps no one it tends to divide in my experience. It is only in truth that can we unite, error always divides.Jake
     
  2. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    (thesuperjag;20988)
    Jake please do write your five paragraph thing. I'll enjoy it.However I didn't say that I'm against water baptism, because I'm not.I'm just against water baptism FOR SALVATION. Because of that, it's like putting water first, then our Saviour Yahshua last. I really have no problem doing it in my lifetime (if someone would baptize me) because Yahshua did it. I'll do it as an act of obedience.Love much, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua
    You are correct Jag, and I did not get the impression whatsoever you were against it, I could have stated it better. I'm calling it a night and will pick this up tomorrow. Good evening, JakeP.S. Do you want me to post on this particular thread?
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Goodnight Jake, hope you have a great sleep.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.P.S. Sure you can post your four or five paragraphs post on this topic.
     
  4. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    1
    I asked:-So, if you believe only some christians speak in tongues from this passage, then do you also believe that only some have wisdom, only some have knowledge, only some have faith?Is that what you believe Nova??(Nova;20943)
    Yes, bear with me & I will try to explain. . . . .
    Well, at least you managed to answer my simple question, unlike certain people that are either unable or unwilling.At least you are being consistent, but of course consistently wrong.The doctrine that only some christians get wisdom, knowledge, .. . . tongues and the other attributes listed is complete and utter nonsense.If that were the case Paul would never have needed to reason with them not to all to behave as one member.Look again how he begins the letter:-I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge (1:4-5)And of course there are many other scriptures that teach the same thing. (2 Cor. 5:17, John 14:20, 1 John 4:17 . . . )Out of interest Nove, which church are you with, and do they actually teach the same?
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    Look again how he begins the letter:-I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge (1:4-5){quote}I know you are talking with Nova but pray tell where to you get this verse has anything to do with speaking your tongues??utterance in all knowledge is talking about speaking Gods word with Wisdom and understanding No scripture ever said wisdom comes from speaking gibberish reguarldless if you believe its of God or not. Tongues (language) is less of a gift than even charity no where does it give you wisdom without and interpter.Question Tallman if you did not speak this and stopped trying to read support for it every verse you seem to quote what shape would your faith be in Your whole religious foundation seems to be all about this speaking gibberish So without would you have any faith?? Maybe these are things you should ask yourself nowhere does scripture tell you to base a religion around this.
     
  6. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    1
    (kriss;21118)
    Look again how he begins the letter:-I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge (1:4-5)I know you are talking with Nova but pray tell where to you get this verse has anything to do with speaking your tongues??. ..
    STILL no answer to my question Kriss!!It says "in EVERYTHING you are enriched . . in ALL utterance"Speaking in tongues edifies you, that's enriching, it is "utterance".Paul adds . ."even as the testimony of Jesus Christ was confirmed in you" (v7)Confirmed by man? NO! Confirmed by God - see Acts for details - all spoke in tongues when they received Christ's (invisible) Spirit.John 14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    Gods tongue is not your tongue it was understood by all and I dont know what question you are talking about?and all utterance is not your so called tongues it means all words spoken in Gods NameUtterance greek word Logos(G3056) of speecha) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea[​IMG] what someone has said1) a word2) the sayings of God3) decree, mandate or order4) of the moral precepts given by God5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maximc) discourse1) the act of speaking, speech2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking3) a kind or style of speaking4) a continuous speaking discourse - instructiond) doctrine, teachinge) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrativef) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at lawg) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deedAll things having to do with all speech speaking Nowhere does it say it is limited to a mumbling unintellagable un-understandable babbleNone of the other scriptures you gave have anything to do with your babble eitherActs and Cor. are not related they are two seperate things.Eph. 2:8 - 10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    I'm completely weary of the twisting scriptures you are giving us Tallman. Do it somewhere else.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.
     
  9. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    (TallMan;21120)
    STILL no answer to my question Kriss!!It says "in EVERYTHING you are enriched . . in ALL utterance"Speaking in tongues edifies you, that's enriching, it is "utterance".Paul adds . ."even as the testimony of Jesus Christ was confirmed in you" (v7)Confirmed by man? NO! Confirmed by God - see Acts for details - all spoke in tongues when they received Christ's (invisible) Spirit.John 14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    I believe it's safe to say we do not have the wisdom that Solomon had. His "special" gift was wisdom. God will surely give us that gift, but "some" have been given it more abundantly. There are many Christians who have the gift of "knowledge" but perhaps are not "especially" gifted in "applying" that knowledge , which would be wisdom. Jake
     
  10. Nova

    Nova New Member

    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    TallMan, I'd answer you question, if I understood what you are asking. You obviously disagree with the way I'm reading 1Cor 12. How do you interpret it?
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    (TallMan;21120)
    STILL no answer to my question Kriss!!It says "in EVERYTHING you are enriched . . in ALL utterance"Speaking in tongues edifies you, that's enriching, it is "utterance".Paul adds . ."even as the testimony of Jesus Christ was confirmed in you" (v7)Confirmed by man? NO! Confirmed by God - see Acts for details - all spoke in tongues when they received Christ's (invisible) Spirit.John 14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    Again your misinterpet scripture to justify your own ideas this verse has nothing to do with tongues it is about following God and his commandments and there is no tongue commandment but as usual you take one verse out of context and put your own spin on itJohn 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."Jesus is telling us that He, the Father, the Comforter, and you are all in this mansion and resting place together.John 14:21 "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." No tongues hereThese commandment are the instructions that God told us to follow, and we keep them in our hearts. It is with our minds that we follow those commandments in obedience to Jesus' instructions given to all those that claim His name. Those that call themselves Christians, that is how you show your love for God the Father and Jesus Christ. Not babbleJesus is promising you that if you try to keep His commandments, and love and support your Christian brethren, as we saw in Jesus foot washing of His disciples, Then He will make Himself known to you. By following his commandments, to the letter, Remember from the foot washing lesson, that Christ is able to clean you thoroughly upon repentance, By faith through Grace alone Not any tongue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Kriss, speaking to Tallman is completely useless. Let's not cast away pearls to swine, because I feel that Tallman is not going to change anytime soon due to the fact that he is so absorbed (or consume) to his own preconceived ideas.Love you much from JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.
     
  13. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    A spirit of fanaticism has ruled a certain class. . . . They have sipped but lightly at the fountain of truth and are unacquainted with the spirit of the message … Nothing can be done for this class until their fanatical views are corrected. . . . Some of these persons have exercises which they call gifts and say that the Lord has placed them in the church. They have an unmeaning gibberish which they call the unknown tongue, which is unknown not only by man but by the Lord and all heaven." End Quote, written in 1864, let's keep up dear folks, you are blessed by God. God bless you all, "community consensus" is not necessary. "Tribalism" is not necessary either, more defined, truth is truth, let's be wise, I am nothing. Love you guys. Jake
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (preciousmessage;21243)
    A spirit of fanaticism has ruled a certain class. . . . They have sipped but lightly at the fountain of truth and are unacquainted with the spirit of the message … Nothing can be done for this class until their fanatical views are corrected. . . . Some of these persons have exercises which they call gifts and say that the Lord has placed them in the church. They have an unmeaning gibberish which they call the unknown tongue, which is unknown not only by man but by the Lord and all heaven." End Quote, written in 1864, let's keep up dear folks, you are blessed by God. God bless you all, "community consensus" is not necessary. A "tribalism" is not necessary either, more defined, truth is truth, let's be wise, I am nothing. Love you guys. Jake
    Another excellent quote Jake. :amen: AND :blessyou:JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  15. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    (thesuperjag;21245)
    Another excellent quote Jake. :amen: AND :blessyou:JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
    Hi Jag, Controversy is always necessary, if one is a Christian:How could Christ be baptized with John's "baptism of repentance" if He never had an experience of repentance? And how could a sinless Person experience repentance? JESUS CHRIST NEVER EXPERIENCED SIN! HE WAS PERFECT! "Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth." 1 Peter 2:22. BUT John the Baptist "baptized with a baptism of repentance." Acts 19:4, and therefore must have baptized Jesus with the ONLY baptism he knew. Jesus Christ is not a farce, and both John and Jesus would be guilty of hypocrisy, and that is unthinkable. We often think of the thief on the cross as not being baptized, henceforth, why should we be baptized?, ... Jesus was ... is that enough reason? Many do not think so. The thief on the cross cannot for physical reasons be baptized. Was Jesus' baptism a legalistic provision, a deposit of merit to be drawn on for such emergencies in a substitutionary way? God forbid people. But we often think so, like as an "obedience" or "example." One of the 18 booklets I have written and compiled is on the topic of "Christ's Repentance." Let's investigate:The theory of the thief on the cross: (a) One must be baptized in order to enter paradise; ([​IMG] the poor thief nailed to a cross cannot be immersed; © Jesus' baptism helps the thief like a credit transfer in a bank transaction; (d) the appropriate "deposit" is placed to the account of the unbaptized thief, and (e) he will be saved by this act, ... GOD FORBID of a negotiation of the CROSS! Galatians 2:21. No legalistic concept cannot be accepted, it leaves us with a COLD feeling. Was Jesus sincere in asking for baptism, and was not John the baptized sincere in refusing? I hope Jesus is much more sincere, with TRUTH! Jesus Christ answered the prophet's objection, "Thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15). Was Jesus Christ suggesting that He and John should act out some kind of play? The total essence of "righteousness" is sincerity and genuineness. Jesus asked for baptism because He really identified Himself with sinners, yet without sin. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21. Is it not truth that Christ took the necessary steps in repentance, conversion, and faith in "BEHALF" of the human race? Jesus Christ did not come confessing His own sins, but it was "imputed" to Him as the sinner's substitute. As the substitute He takes upon "HIM" their sins, numbering Himself with the transgressors, taking the steps the sinner is required to take; and doing the work the sinner will do, for those who love God.A profoundity: Though Christ being sinless, Jesus did in His own soul experience repentance, a perfect one at that. He also knows how everyone "feels." He can sympathize with them! Hebrews 2, 4, 5. The apostle John says it is only when we confess a sin that we can experience Christ's "faithful" forgiveness and cleansing from it. 1 John 1:9. But to confess a sin without sensing its reality becomes a lip-service, perilously close to to hypocrisy. Skin-deep confession and skin-deep repentance bring skin-deep love, skin-deep devotion. May God give us a perfect repentance. Jesus' love for US is the necessary reason for being baptized, will we do the same? ...It's (objectively) ended when Christ commenced his work as the Messiah, the Anointed, at his baptism. He was, as we have just stated, anointed at His baptism, should we not want the same?“The time is fulfilled.” Mark 1:15. Jake
     
  16. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

    Messages:
    431
    Likes Received:
    1
    (kriss;21151)
    Again your misinterpet scripture to justify your own ideas this verse has nothing to do with tongues it is about following God and his commandments and there is no tongue commandment but as usual you take one verse out of context and put your own spin on it
    If you dealt with my points and question instead of just ignoring them your words might have some weight.Jesus said they would "know the day" he would be in themHe would manifest himself to them.What day was that?How did they know?What was the manifestation?(kriss;21151)
    John 14:21 "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." No tongues here
    Your argument that because tongues isn't mentioned in these particular verses about receiving the Spirit really just shows unwillingness to believe what you have been shown. This attitude is not new:-Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not (John 10:24-25)
     
  17. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Get thee behind me Satan, for thou art an offence to me. For thou savourest the things of men, not of God.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    (TallMan;21270)
    If you dealt with my points and question instead of just ignoring them your words might have some weight.Jesus said they would "know the day" he would be in themHe would manifest himself to them.What day was that?How did they know?What was the manifestation?Your argument that because tongues isn't mentioned in these particular verses about receiving the Spirit really just shows unwillingness to believe what you have been shown. This attitude is not new:-Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not (John 10:24-25)
    No it shows you are blinded by evil spirits for there is no unknown tongue in Gods word there is only prophesying and it can only be prophecy if it is teaching and unitelligable garble is not prophesying it is of evil spirits The manifestation was of God evidenced by what they prophesied and that it was UNDERSTOOD BY ALL WHO WERE PRESENT regardless of the language they spoke.The day was Pentecost day A day of miracles so special it is still celebratedhow you defile Gods miracle and demote it to something Paul says is less than charity is blasphemous and should show you how evil it is. NO WHERE in GODs word is Babble that is not understood by anyone declared as a gift. The evidence of the gift is in what it prophesied(taught interpreted). Cor 12 speaks of being able to teach Gods word in differnt languages(hebrew,Greek ect.) NOT Babbling that is Satan's counterfeit gift. wake up your faith is based in a lie I pray for you Tallman your babble will lead you to the devil. Cloven Tongues in Acts was Gods himself teaching his new church Tongues in Cor. is men teaching men they are separate things and speaking babbel is nothing of GodEvery believer has received the gift of the Spirit it is believe and repentance that makes room for the spirit to enter the end. No BabelJohn 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also.""For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe upon Him, should not perish but have eternal life." [John 3:16] This "eternal life", as it is given in the Greek means from the very beginning, with out a break, into eternity with out end. This is life without ceasing. Notice it doesnt say whom ever speaks babel
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.Jag
     
  20. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    (thesuperjag;21276)
    Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.Jag
    Hi Jag,Are you guys still dealing with Tallman?Jake
     
Loading...