Yes, it is possible to reconcile all of the New Testament Scriptures

[ATP]

Does that include the billions of people that died and have never heard the name Jesus? What
will God do with them?

Logabe

Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[StanJ]

Does that include the billions of people that died and have never heard the name Jesus? What
will God do with them?

Logabe

Romans 1

 

[H. Richard]

E.G. In Romans 6, he says they are slaves of righteousness,
then he warns them to stop sinning and tells them
to present their members as slaves of righteousness!

The righteousness spoken of is Jesus Christ. According to the scriptures, He is our righteousness. Replace the word righteousness with Jesus Christ and you can see it. I can find no where in scripture where it says people have righteousness by their own works of the flesh.

 

[Zachary]

The righteousness spoken of is Jesus Christ. According to the scriptures, He is our righteousness. Replace the word righteousness with Jesus Christ and you can see it. I can find no where in scripture where it says people have righteousness by their own works of the flesh.

There are a whole lot of things you don't see in Scripture (which is common).
Several verses warn that we must practice/work righteousness to be righteous!

 

[OzSpen]

Does that include the billions of people that died and have never heard the name Jesus? What
will God do with them?

Logabe

Logabe,

Do you read your Bible? God has told us what will happen to them:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonouring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen (Rom 1:18-25 ESV).

Not one person will stand before God with an excuse. What have they done with the evidence God has provided, even within the countries that have 1,800 languages in which not even one verse of the Bible has been translated? God's answer is: 'They are without excuse'.

Oz

 

[H. Richard]

There are a whole lot of things you don't see in Scripture (which is common).
Several verses warn that we must practice/work righteousness to be righteous!

A person is righteous in God's eyes when that person believes in what God says, not by any works of righteousness by that person.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what scripture says a person is righteous before God by what he/she does.

 

[StanJ]

A person is righteous in God's eyes when that person believes in what God says, not by any works of righteousness by that person.

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what scripture says a person is righteous before God by what he/she does.

A person is never righteous in God's eyes. When God looks at us through His spiritual eyes, all He sees is the Blood of The Lamb.
Isaiah 1:18 (NIV)
Jesus is our righteousness.

 

[logabe]

Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So your answer is.... they will go to hell for eternity because they were placed in a society that wouldn't


allow people to speak the name of Jesus. Don't you think that is a little narrow minded?

Romans 1

I'm not talking about people that knew God and turned away from Him (Rom. 1:21), but I'm
talking about people that lived in the jungles of the rain forest and have never heard the name
Jesus. What will God do with them?

Logabe,

Do you read your Bible? God has told us what will happen to them:


Not one person will stand before God with an excuse. What have they done with the evidence God has provided, even within the countries that have 1,800 languages in which not even one verse of the Bible has been translated? God's answer is: 'They are without excuse'.

Oz

You are talking about people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment. I'm
talking about people that have never heard the name Jesus. What will God do with them?

Logabe

 

[justaname]

So your answer is.... they will go to hell for eternity because they were placed in a society that wouldn't


allow people to speak the name of Jesus. Don't you think that is a little narrow minded?


I'm not talking about people that knew God and turned away from Him (Rom. 1:21), but I'm
talking about people that lived in the jungles of the rain forest and have never heard the name
Jesus. What will God do with them?


You are talking about people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment. I'm
talking about people that have never heard the name Jesus. What will God do with them?

Logabe

I pray for God's mercy.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not talking about people that knew God and turned away from Him (Rom. 1:21), but I'm
talking about people that lived in the jungles of the rain forest and have never heard the name
Jesus. What will God do with them?

You are talking about people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment. I'm
talking about people that have never heard the name Jesus. What will God do with them?

Logabe


Logabe,

Romans 1 identifies who these people are:

'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them (Rom 1:18-19 NLT).

They are all the godless, wicked people who have suppressed the truth of God by their wickedness. Your idea that these are 'people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment' is an invention that is not in the text.

Oz

 

[justaname]

I'm not talking about people that knew God and turned away from Him (Rom. 1:21), but I'm
talking about people that lived in the jungles of the rain forest and have never heard the name
Jesus. What will God do with them?

You are talking about people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment. I'm
talking about people that have never heard the name Jesus. What will God do with them?

Logabe

Logabe,

Romans 1 identifies who these people are:



'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them (Rom 1:18-19 NLT).
They are all the godless, wicked people who have suppressed the truth of God by their wickedness. Your idea that these are 'people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment' is an invention that is not in the text.

Oz

Oz,

Some of these do serve a god, yet how are they guilty of not serving Jesus Christ or the God of Abraham (no distinction being made) if they are ignorant? You can not suppress something you are not privy of.

I understand these are guilty of sin; here I have no issue.

 

[logabe]

I'm not talking about people that knew God and turned away from Him (Rom. 1:21), but I'm
talking about people that lived in the jungles of the rain forest and have never heard the name
Jesus. What will God do with them?

You are talking about people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment. I'm
talking about people that have never heard the name Jesus. What will God do with them?

Logabe


Logabe,

Romans 1 identifies who these people are:

'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them (Rom 1:18-19 NLT).

They are all the godless, wicked people who have suppressed the truth of God by their wickedness. Your idea that these are 'people that knew God and turned away from the Holy commandment' is an invention that is not in the text.

Oz

Romans 1:21 says,

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God
or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their
foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:25 says,

25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and
served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.
Amen.

Romans 1:32 says,

32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who
practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same,
but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

So I think it is very clear that Paul was talking about the people that knew God, but turned from the
Holy commandment that God had once delivered to them. Just as Peter spoke of the same people in
2nd Peter 2:21,

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them
than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy
commandment handed on to them.

The whole point is, when God shows us things in the Spirit, such as, loving your enemies, we are to
pray for God's understanding in this matter, because it is very hard to forgive someone that has done
you wrong. But as Christians, it is our obligation to learn how to put on the mind of Christ so we can
fulfill the Great Commandment.

In the past, most of the church would rather establish their own righteousness to sooth their conscience,
because they have tried to forgive their enemies through their flesh, which is, an impossible endeavor.
In order to cope they just give lip service which isn't pleasing to God, because God judges our hearts.

These same people were ordained to go out and preach the gospel to every creature, but because they
they went and established their own righteousness, God turned them over to the lust of their flesh. He
has done this in every age. Just listen to this in Ezekiel's day (Ezekiel 18:24-29),

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness,
commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a
wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has
done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed
and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house
of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits
iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed
he will die.
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he
has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his
life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions
which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My
ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

So it comes down to whether you think God is right or not. That's what Paul was speaking to the Roman
church about. There were many anti-Christ in his day, just as there are many today. Who will we believe?

Our calling is to bless all the families of the earth, but if we are partial God can't use us in that state.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Some of these do serve a god, yet how are they guilty of not serving Jesus Christ or the God of Abraham (no distinction being made) if they are ignorant? You can not suppress something you are not privy of.

I understand these are guilty of sin; here I have no issue.

justaname,

Romans 1:19-20 (ESV) tells us what they are guilty of. God has shown all people, even in the deepest, darkest jungle, his invisible attributes through creation. What have they done with this evidence? They have suppressed this truth (Rom 1:18) and so are 'without excuse' when it comes to judgment day (Rom 1:20).

What applies to the people ignorant of the Gospel in some remote country, also applies to people in Australia who suppress the truth of the existence of God and His attributes revealed in creation. They will be without excuse before God when they meet him for judgment.

It seems evident that they will be judged on the evidence available to them.

Oz

 

[logabe]

justaname,

Romans 1:19-20 (ESV) tells us what they are guilty of. God has shown all people, even in the deepest, darkest jungle, his invisible attributes through creation. What have they done with this evidence? They have suppressed this truth (Rom 1:18) and so are 'without excuse' when it comes to judgment day (Rom 1:20).

What applies to the people ignorant of the Gospel in some remote country, also applies to people in Australia who suppress the truth of the existence of God and His attributes revealed in creation. They will be without excuse before God when they meet him for judgment.

It seems evident that they will be judged on the evidence available to them.
Oz

I think the key in verse 18 is "who hold the truth in unrighteousness". In other words,
these were people that were called out by God, but took the truth they were taught and used
it in a fleshly manner, such as, showing partiality to other races or other religions. God don't
like that, so He tells us in James 2:8-9,

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to
the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”
you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are
convicted by the law as transgressors.

These people were suppose to bring this truth into the deepest, darkest jungles of the world,
but they decided to do it their way, so God gave them up for a season just like He did the
Israelites in the Old Testament. They were suppose to bring the Kingdom of God to the rest
of the world, but they hoarded the Kingdom for themselves just like they did in Jesus' day and
even today.

We have the key of David today, which is, the Royal Law of Loving our neighbor as ourselves,
which means we can set people free according to the scriptures by obeying God when he tells
us to speak with someone that He is dealing with. But if we neglect what God has ordained for
us to do, then we really don't love that person like ourselves.

We have to understand that this is God's Plan and we are invited to that Plan if we do it according
to God's scriptures. His Plan is to reconcile all things back to Himself. This will take thousands of
years to accomplish, but God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should
come to repentance.

No one can wear out God, because God so loved the world, and that Love want leave anybody in the
state of death. Do you think for one minute that will leave you in the state you are in? I got good news
for you... It's impossible... He Loves you too much and He's got a plan for you, even if you don't submit
to His Plan now!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[OzSpen]

I think the key in verse 18 is "who hold the truth in unrighteousness". In other words,
these were people that were called out by God, but took the truth they were taught and used
it in a fleshly manner, such as, showing partiality to other races or other religions.

Logabe,

That's not what the text states. We need to see Rom 1:18b (ESV), 'who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth', in light of Rom 1:17(ESV), 'the righteousness of God is revealed' and Rom 1:18a (ESV), 'the wrath of God is revealed from heaven'.

We would expect v. 18 in the Greek to begin with a strong adversative, but, or however. That is not what happens. Verse 18 is connected to the previous verses with the word, 'for', which is normally used to give the reason for the previous statement. It seems that 'for' is used to provide the explanation of what Paul has just said.

Why has God revealed his righteousness (1:18a) and revealed his wrath against unrighteousness? Because there are those, who in their unrighteousness suppress the truth of God. The wrath for unrighteousness is not against believers (the righteous) but against unbelievers (the unrighteous).

Many don't like the idea of the wrath of God against unbelievers. In the early church, Marcion censored 'of God' from v. 18 because he didn't like the idea of the wrath of God against unrighteousness [see what Tertullian thought of what Marcin did in Tertullian, The Prescription against Heretics 38].

In the 20th century, C H Dodd did it by modifying the biblical concept of the wrath of God [C. H. Dodd, The Epistle of Paul to the Romans, 2nd ed. (London and Glasgow: Collins, 1959), pp. 47-50].

I suggest that you have imposed your personal view on the text of Rom 1:18 (ESV) rather than listening to what the grammar of the text in context states.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

I'm not talking about people that knew God and turned away from Him (Rom. 1:21), but I'm
talking about people that lived in the jungles of the rain forest and have never heard the name
Jesus. What will God do with them?

No, Paul is talking about people who knew God because of His creation, not knew God BY salvation. Try not taking the order of Rom 1 out of context please.

 

[Zachary]

No, Paul is talking about people who knew God because of His creation, not knew God BY salvation.
Try not taking the order of Rom 1 out of context please.

Atta boy, Stanster!

 

[logabe]

No, Paul is talking about people who knew God because of His creation, not knew God BY salvation. Try not taking the order of Rom 1 out of context please.

That's a good point Stan. I guess I was getting the cart before the horse. Yes... in creation
all men/women know God @ some level of understanding. When it comes to knowing God
by salvation it becomes a horse of a different color.

If we go back where the truth of God was given to Adam, it has a residual effect on all mankind
and now it is very hard to comprehend God, because of the idolatry that was so prevalent in their
society and also in today's.

Thanks' for correcting me.

Logabe

 

[toknowthetruth]

Just to add to the discussion about eternal punishment, seems to me there are ample scriptural based arguments on both sides. In a case like this I think it's a good idea to look at which argument seems the most consistent. To me if you look at John 3:16 and then contrast that with God damning people who don't believe to eternal punishment it shows a complete contradiction. In fact eternal punishment seems without purpose to me. Admittedly punishment is a necessary element, but it is to bring about an end result. To me that end result would be at some point in time to either justify complete annihilation, or to purge and bring about repentance. That's what I see as the more logical way of looking at it. I think all Christians would come to the same conclusion if they would set aside their biases and take an objective look at it. Of course I should also add that there may be a bit of bias on my side in that last statement. (Rm. 3:23)