You can never lose your salvation!

[bbyrd009]

Indeed what would a Christian say to someone who asserts to holding the same belief and yet admits to knowingly doing nearly every possible thing that God hates.

seems to me the "admits to knowingly doing nearly every possible thing that God hates" part is not really the best characterization of that person, though; i think denial and justification are the more common there?

"33,000 Protestant Denominations?
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations"

"I didn't say "33,000". I said TENS of thousands."

 

[KBCid]

seems to me the "admits to knowingly doing nearly every possible thing that God hates" part is not really the best characterization of that person, though; i think denial and justification are the more common there?

ahhh back in the time I based the character on they hadn't developed that sophistication yet but it is a full on thing now for sure.

"33,000 Protestant Denominations?
We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations"
"I didn't say "33,000". I said TENS of thousands."

I have been named and marginalized ''''Nondenominational (no church or anti-church groups)'''' maybe... it does say group and not individual.

 

[Stranger]

A quite interesting reply you have there it would appear that not only "God delights in your unique way of producing fruit!" but I may also be right there with them. You certainly provide a perspective that did not occur to me and yet it contains such a valid consideration.

Indeed what would a Christian say to someone who asserts to holding the same belief and yet admits to knowingly doing nearly every possible thing that God hates. Maybe we can define such a person as a "worldly Christian" who reflects the world and Christ together. I live by my faith but my evil flesh just can't be denied.

Then you need to change your question and list you gave in post #135. Shame you couldn't get it right the first time.

Stranger

 

[KBCid]

Then you need to change your question and list you gave in post #135. Shame you couldn't get it right the first time. Stranger

what would the difference be if the only possible answer to all is believe only and you are saved?

 

[Stranger]

what would the difference be if the only possible answer to all is believe only and you are saved?

The point is your list of questions was answered. You couldn't answer my response to them. So you had to add to your question and your list. Now, you just refuse to answer. Just as you never answered my post #133.

This begs the question. You think a believer can lose their salvation, yet you cannot back it up. Why?

Indeed, the only true possible answer is believe and be saved.

Stranger

 

[Richard_oti]

As Agrippa said to Paul- "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian"

<hearty chuckle>

 

[Richard_oti]

You create a long post and say nothing concerning whether or not one can lose their salvation. You give no proofs with the verses you give to indicate a loss of salvation. So, why so many questions to me when you are not addressing the issue.

Just as Israel was delivered from bondage in Exodus, so also we are delivered from a bondage. Just as Israel looked forward to entering a "promised land", so also we look forward to entry into a promised land. Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness, being "proved" of "God". To see if they would listen and obey. Did those who heard His voice yet did not take heed enter in?

Deut 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which YHVH thy God hath led thee these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.

Num 32:13 And the anger of YHVH was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander to and fro in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of YHVH, was consumed.

If those by the blood of bulls did not enter in, how shall those who trample the blood of the Son enter?

Few find it. I am sure those who cry "Lord, Lord", thought they also would enter in, yet:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ye that do what?

Your best effort was with (Heb. 10:26) to which you just said you reject my understanding. Gee. That settles it. Not. The whole point of (Heb. 10) is the contrast between the many sacrifices under the Old and the One Sacrifice under the New. Thus for we who are under the New, when we sin, do not seek another Sacrifice. Because the One has taken care of it. Of course it is speaking to believers. I never said it wasn't. It just doesn't teach a loss of salvation which is what you want it to teach. It speak of judgement, but not a loss of salvation.

Heb 10:27b ... and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

So before coming with so many questions of smoke, address the issue, and prove what you are saying.

If I did, could you accept it. I do see through the "smoke".


Deut 9:4 Speak not thou in thy heart, after that YHVH thy God hath thrust them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness YHVH hath brought me in to possess this land; whereas for the wickedness of these nations YHVH doth drive them out from before thee.

Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.

 

[Richard_oti]

Of course, We were created to be the image of God and to reflect them in all our being is to do so in thought and deed. In order to be a peculiar people God's people would of necessity have to appear different than those they live among. Since other men cannot see what is on the inside of a person then the only method that can possibly be observable is the actions they take.

1 Tim 4:11These things command and teach. 12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Well said.

 

[Richard_oti]

Of course there was a loading in the question as I depicted what I envisioned of the pagans who had the monument to the unknown god. The intentional loading was to depict a person who had every possible aspect of their existence in accord with what God has shown to be evil or bad. My vision of the meeting was one where the pagan hears of a new god and simply inquires to learn something about this new thing going on. (hey everyone there's a new god being talked about) Thus my post was loaded to see what IF ANY parts of the questioners evils they would feel should be pointed out.

I understood what you were doing. And thus, we are building upon it.

As you have already pointed out just a little later in this post there were indeed rules set for those new to the faith and we both know those were introductory rules / regs.

What I have always found so saddening, is that so many think that is all there is. And some, don't even recognize / follow / obey those.

So in essence and the bottom line for that virtual interaction was to show that there are rules unique to God's dictates of worship and we should be able to tell others that there are expectations of conduct for a Christian.

That by which we may be a people peculiar unto Him, a treasured possession.

I respect your opinion highly Richard you have been exemplary in your ways since the beginning. If what I have written rubs YOUR spirit the wrong way then I am doing something wrong.

Not at all, for I understood. And here we are, at the basics, and discussion as to what is beyond the basics. Which is not for your benefit, for you know these things.

You have a highly valid point about the entirety of a truthful message being counter productive and to this I agree based entirely on scripture that we will learn line upon line bit by bit. All must go through a learning process. You cannot stuff it all in from the beginning.

Indubitably. However just as I saw that it was "loaded", so would others and by such, justify the attempt to disregard the intent.

And it would be just as your saying for anyone to try to tell all at once.
Of course your reference to circumcision is a bit more personal of a change than modifying your actions lol.

Which is exactly why they choose that. Because of the anticipated reaction. I once knew a cult that required all males to be re-circumcised. The leader's wife did the re-circumcising.

Yet I still whole heartedly agree with your thought there.
(ok here's the deal... in order to get in we are going to have to hack of a piece of your skin off and it must come from this spot here............ awwww hell no!) (it is playing out in my head as I write this... and killing me)

<chuckle> Thus you fully understand why they choose that in order to stir up controversy and discourage those from amoung the goyim who were turning to YHVH.

Indeed here is that reference to the basic rules for "the noobs" as my son calls them and you show by scripture there is a time when the noobs are told about these minimal expectations defined for the gentiles coming to Christ. (ha my kid reading over my shoulder chanting "noobs" to affect my typing)

<chuckle>

<snip>

This is what comes to mind when you reference maturity in the faith;
1 Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Here it is pointed out that we can't set initial limits to where they should be because then no one could even enter. So entry level would be minimal rules. I also see in this passage there would come a point where one would come to be considered a brother and yet could still exhibit acts of unrighteousness. Of course it is at this point that separation must occur.

Indeed.

As Paul wrote, even in his day was the mystery of "iniquity" already at work.

 

[Stranger]

Just as Israel was delivered from bondage in Exodus, so also we are delivered from a bondage. Just as Israel looked forward to entering a "promised land", so also we look forward to entry into a promised land. Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness, being "proved" of "God". To see if they would listen and obey. Did those who heard His voice yet did not take heed enter in?

Deut 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which YHVH thy God hath led thee these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.

Num 32:13 And the anger of YHVH was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander to and fro in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of YHVH, was consumed.

If those by the blood of bulls did not enter in, how shall those who trample the blood of the Son enter?

Few find it. I am sure those who cry "Lord, Lord", thought they also would enter in, yet:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ye that do what?




Heb 10:27b ... and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.




If I did, could you accept it. I do see through the "smoke".


Deut 9:4 Speak not thou in thy heart, after that YHVH thy God hath thrust them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness YHVH hath brought me in to possess this land; whereas for the wickedness of these nations YHVH doth drive them out from before thee.

Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.

You err again. The promised land is not to be identified as Heaven. There is much fighting and war in the promised land once Israel got there. The promised land is a picture of the believer walking in victory over the many trials down here. It is a picture of the believer walking in faith and in the Spirit.

The wilderness, where a whole generation died, is a picture of the believers who fails to enter that victorious walk of faith. And why did he not enter? Not because of sins, though he sinned. Because of unbelief. A lack of faith. (Heb. 3:17-19)

(Matt. 7:23) is not a picture of losing salvation. The Lord says "I never knew you".

(Heb. 10:27) is judgement on the believer, but it is not the believer that is devoured, it is the adversaries. The believer suffers as God destroys that which is destroying the believer. The believer is still the believer. (Heb. 10:30) "...And again, The Lord shall judge his people." (Heb. 10:39) "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

And, what was this wilfull sin that the Hebrew Christians were going back to? The Law. They had believed on Jesus Christ but now due to persecution by the Jews they were going back to the Mosaic system of law and animal sacrifice. They were meeting in the synogogues and not meeting with their fellow Christians.

(Deut. 9:4) proves nothing concerning a loss of salvation. If anything it proves the believer doesn't obtain any form of salvation by works.

(Rom. 11:18) is speaking to salvation being found in Israel or the Gentiles. Before, it was in Israel. (John 4:22) "Ye worship ye know not what:we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." But now the door is open to the Gentiles. (Eph. 2:11-13) But just as God closed the door to Israel, God can close the door to the Gentiles and reopen it to Israel. And why did he close the door? Sin? Yes, the sin of unbelief, which you quoted. (11:20) And we stand how? By faith. Which you quoted. (11:20)

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If my will agrees with God then I am agreeing to be in subjection to his will.
Why have you totally disregarded all the scriptures I put in my various replies? I showed you and others by scriptural reference that my words are not simply things that fall out of a my own mind. The inspired writers that I have referenced over and over are talking to real individuals about overcoming their sinful flesh. If you wish to answer me correctly then you need to explain away all the references I gave that came from the apostles in their communications with the believers of their time. If God is going to make you perfect for God then why are you in existence at all. God can make all the automatons he wants at will. What they can't make is a free willed agent that always accepts their direction thus, there will be a separation of God's children from satans and those children will have willingly submitted of their own free will to one or the other.

It is not necessary for me to try to address the scripture you gave. I'm not here to convince anyone that: God wants you to keep sinning.

I said a confession of faith when I was ten years old. I was alone. No one forced me to say a prayer. When I was in my twenties while in church I invited God into my heart. Twice, I said the simple prayer and "invited God into my heart" and nothing ever changed about who I was. I always said: I know Him but I was deceived. A couple of years ago something happened and I have no doubt now that, before then, I did not know God. God allowed my life to be tore down and then HE reconstructed it. Everything about me has changed. What you don't know is I had never read an entire book. I was not a reader. I was really bad at it. I was the kid that hid in class when hands went up to read because my reading was so bad. Yet somehow God led me into a library a couple of years ago. I read for the wrong reasons at first. Then one day, God told me to pick up His word. HE asked me to read to Him, out loud: Revelation 19:16 [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS .

I can't tell you the date or the moment it happened but He is my life now. There is not a moment in the day that passes that HE is not on my mind. No one forces me to read His word, or forces me to pray or talk to Him. I can not imagine my life without the relationship now. You are right on some things; I will give you that. It takes more than a simple prayer "inviting Jesus into your heart." There is a whole host of people deceived by that bad doctrine. It takes more than Sunday mornings and then you go back to everyday life and not think of Him again until the following Sunday when the pastor reads a verse. Real change happens. The pagan you asked about in the other post: I would tell them they do not know God. I would tell them there has been no changes in their life, no change in perspective, no conviction, no repentance, no insight that something OR someone vital is missing... which is a good indication the Spirit of God is not there. But the same could be said about many sitting in church on Sunday. I would tell the pagan that they are held captive in darkness and God is the only one that can set them free. Secretly, I would know that if they truly believe and are called then a great affliction will soon turn their world upside down until nothing resembles the same.

Stranger is right about believing one can lose Salvation. The ONLY way an individual can believe that lie is to be puffed-up into believing they are the one in charge. You can not lose Salvation if Salvation is based on what God said; rather than what man does. Man will always fail which is the reason for the lead way of: you lose Salvation and then work to regain it. Then lose it. Then regain it. Then lose it. Then regain it. Man controls his own destiny. Man is in charge. I urge you to rethink that one. Your post often argue the position and power and ability of man to control man's outcome. Very seldom do I read you meantion vulnerability and a desperate need of Christ. Who are you preaching. You? Or Him?

1 Thessalonians 5:24 KJV
[24] Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Galatians 3:23 KJV
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 KJV
[3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

1 Timothy 3:9 KJV
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.


Romans 9:32-33 KJV
[32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[tabletalk]

It is not necessary for me to try to address the scripture you gave. I'm not here to convince anyone that: God wants you to keep sinning.

I said a confession of faith when I was ten years old. I was alone. No one forced me to say a prayer. When I was in my twenties while in church I invited God into my heart. Twice, I said the simple prayer and "invited God into my heart" and nothing ever changed about who I was. I always said: I know Him but I was deceived. A couple of years ago something happened and I have no doubt now that, before then, I did not know God. God allowed my life to be tore down and then HE reconstructed it. Everything about me has changed. What you don't know is I had never read an entire book. I was not a reader. I was really bad at it. I was the kid that hid in class when hands went up to read because my reading was so bad. Yet somehow God led me into a library a couple of years ago. I read for the wrong reasons at first. Then one day, God told me to pick up His word. HE asked me to read to Him, out loud: Revelation 19:16 [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS .

I can't tell you the date or the moment it happened but He is my life now. There is not a moment in the day that passes that HE is not on my mind. No one forces me to read His word, or forces me to pray or talk to Him. I can not imagine my life without the relationship now. You are right on some things; I will give you that. It takes more than a simple prayer "inviting Jesus into your heart." There is a whole host of people deceived by that bad doctrine. It takes more than Sunday mornings and then you go back to everyday life and not think of Him again until the following Sunday when the pastor reads a verse. Real change happens. The pagan you asked about in the other post: I would tell them they do not know God. I would tell them there has been no changes in their life, no change in perspective, no conviction, no repentance, no insight that something OR someone vital is missing... which is a good indication the Spirit of God is not there. But the same could be said about many sitting in church on Sunday. I would tell the pagan that they are held captive in darkness and God is the only one that can set them free. Secretly, I would know that if they truly believe and are called then a great affliction will soon turn their world upside down until nothing resembles the same.

Stranger is right about believing one can lose Salvation. The ONLY way an individual can believe that lie is to be puffed-up into believing they are the one in charge. You can not lose Salvation if Salvation is based on what God said; rather than what man does. Man will always fail which is the reason for the lead way of: you lose Salvation and then work to regain it. Then lose it. Then regain it. Then lose it. Then regain it. Man controls his own destiny. Man is in charge. I urge you to rethink that one. Your post often argue the position and power and ability of man to control man's outcome. Very seldom do I read you meantion vulnerability and a desperate need of Christ. Who are you preaching. You? Or Him?

1 Thessalonians 5:24 KJV
[24] Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Galatians 3:23 KJV
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 KJV
[3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

1 Timothy 3:9 KJV
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.


Romans 9:32-33 KJV
[32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; [33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If I were an Administrator, I'd close the comments. You've said it just right!

From Romans 9: 14. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15. For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

 

[KBCid]

I can't tell you the date or the moment it happened but He is my life now. There is not a moment in the day that passes that HE is not on my mind. No one forces me to read His word, or forces me to pray or talk to Him. I can not imagine my life without the relationship now.

With this I can entirely from my heart agree with your sentiment.

You are right on some things; I will give you that. It takes more than a simple prayer "inviting Jesus into your heart." There is a whole host of people deceived by that bad doctrine. It takes more than Sunday mornings and then you go back to everyday life and not think of Him again until the following Sunday when the pastor reads a verse. Real change happens. The pagan you asked about in the other post: I would tell them they do not know God. I would tell them there has been no changes in their life, no change in perspective, no conviction, no repentance, no insight that something OR someone vital is missing... which is a good indication the Spirit of God is not there. But the same could be said about many sitting in church on Sunday. I would tell the pagan that they are held captive in darkness and God is the only one that can set them free. Secretly, I would know that if they truly believe and are called then a great affliction will soon turn their world upside down until nothing resembles the same.

In my heart I see as your depiction portrays. For a lot of people being just like Christ is not the in thing to be.
As for your message to them my heart would love to see things always work that way. What a glorious thing it would be to see the duckling become a swan however the reason I pointed to the verses that show the apostles defining the minimal rules for the Christians of that time is that things were not working according to what both you and I would wish to see happen.

Stranger is right about believing one can lose Salvation. The ONLY way an individual can believe that lie is to be puffed-up into believing they are the one in charge. You can not lose Salvation if Salvation is based on what God said; rather than what man does. Man will always fail which is the reason for the lead way of: you lose Salvation and then work to regain it. Then lose it. Then regain it. Then lose it. Then regain it. Man controls his own destiny. Man is in charge. I urge you to rethink that one. Your post often argue the position and power and ability of man to control man's outcome. Very seldom do I read you mention vulnerability and a desperate need of Christ. Who are you preaching. You? Or Him?

I humbly disagree. if salvation can't be lost then there would be no need for any type of rules nor would there be need to encourage the brethren to do even better. God has a kingdom that he has formed for many to exist in. Every kingdom has rules and ranks and many of the things we can see in kingdoms of today. God is the designer of a kingdom and it is this that we are to seek first. Can you imagine a day in that kingdom, what would it be like? what should we do? how shall we be? God wants his children to exist in his kingdom and he wants them to freely choose to want to be there.
Of vulnerability and desperate need I can speak because like you I have reached a point where I knew I had a desperate need and I new that I did not possess anything that would make a change in that situation but I remembered his word that said;
Luke 11:10For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

I asked from the heart for the help I needed and God kept the promise in his time. This is a simple description because I do not want what we discuss to ever be about me. I want to simply be a road sign that points to the scripture for anyone who is seeking understanding.

I have no intent to be negative toward you and we can simply agree that there are points we disagree with. As knowledge increases one or both of us may gain an understanding that is different than we hold now.

 

[KBCid]

I understood what you were doing. And thus, we are building upon it.

I grasped

What I have always found so saddening, is that so many think that is all there is. And some, don't even recognize / follow / obey those.

And those are likely the ones without an agenda.

That by which we may be a people peculiar unto Him, a treasured possession.

This is absolute gold... a pshat that comes across the same every time.

Indubitably. However just as I saw that it was "loaded", so would others and by such, justify the attempt to disregard the intent.
Which is exactly why they choose that. Because of the anticipated reaction. I once knew a cult that required all males to be re-circumcised. The leader's wife did the re-circumcising.
<chuckle> Thus you fully understand why they choose that in order to stir up controversy and discourage those from among the goyim who were turning to YHVH.

yes unfortunate.
oh crap there goes that visual again "In order for you to get in we are going to have to take a little piece of skin from right there"
Yes it was an easy thing to spot as a controversy starter.
You know there is a side to the circumcision thing that many have never considered.... The Jews who were asking for the circumcision of the gentiles were seeing the gentiles as those who were choosing to become Jews. Thus all the first Christians were either already Jewish or were becoming Jewish. I wonder how many have ever looked at the old rules that were in place for a stranger to become Jewish....

Love ya Richard. ummm in a Godly manner.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
You know there is a side to the circumcision thing that many have never considered.... The Jews who were asking for the circumcision of the gentiles were seeing the gentiles as those who were choosing to become Jews. Thus all the first Christians were either already Jewish or were becoming Jewish. I wonder how many have ever looked at the old rules that were in place for a stranger to become Jewish....

Indeed.

 

[Richard_oti]

You err again. The promised land is not to be identified as Heaven.

You claim that I err, yet you insert something that I never stated. Thus, the error is your own thoughts. As @bbyrd009 recently stated, and I paraphrase: metaphorically speaking, we are in the wilderness. Which happened to be my thoughts as I wrote my former reply, however I intentionally choose to leave them out.

There is much fighting and war in the promised land once Israel got there. The promised land is a picture of the believer walking in victory over the many trials down here. It is a picture of the believer walking in faith and in the Spirit.

Yet, when Jesus returns, the first resurrection takes place, and the "millennial reign", there is still:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;

Then there is the ultimate "promised land", that is the new heavens and the new earth.

The wilderness, where a whole generation died, is a picture of the believers who fails to enter that victorious walk of faith. And why did he not enter? Not because of sins, though he sinned. Because of unbelief. A lack of faith. (Heb. 3:17-19)

Indeed. Because they did not heed the voice of YHVH and obey His Instruction. It was reckoned as "unbelief". They did not believe "God" enough to obey His Instruction.

Speaking of a "victorious walk of faith":

2 Tim 2:5 And if also a man contend in the games, he is not crowned, except he have contended lawfully.

Which by that alone, reveals there is no crown, there is no reward, for those whose "victorious walk of faith" has not been done lawfully.

(Matt. 7:23) is not a picture of losing salvation. The Lord says "I never knew you".

Indeed, for as in the wilderness, those who refuse the Instruction, those who do not run the race lawfully, it is as though they never believed.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

Based upon v22, those to whom heard it was said: "I never knew you", sure thought they knew him. In the parallel account in Luke:

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; 26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; 27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Ye that work what?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As I asked of you before: What is "unrighteousness"?


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

(Heb. 10:27) is judgement on the believer, but it is not the believer that is devoured, it is the adversaries.

As you state, the "believer". And as you yourself pointed out with regard to the wilderness, those that did not uphold the Instruction, were reckoned as "unbelievers". And thus, consumed in the wilderness. So according to your own words, you are without excuse.

The believer suffers as God destroys that which is destroying the believer. The believer is still the believer. (Heb. 10:30) "...And again, The Lord shall judge his people." (Heb. 10:39) "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Just as in the wilderness, those who shrank back from upholding His Instruction.

And, what was this wilfull sin that the Hebrew Christians were going back to? The Law. They had believed on Jesus Christ but now due to persecution by the Jews they were going back to the Mosaic system of law and animal sacrifice. They were meeting in the synogogues and not meeting with their fellow Christians.

So let me get this absolutely straight: You are clearly stating that upholding His Instruction, that His "law" is "willful sin"? I am reading you correctly?

(Deut. 9:4) proves nothing concerning a loss of salvation. If anything it proves the believer doesn't obtain any form of salvation by works.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if ye shall hearken unto the commandments of YHVH your God, which I command you this day; 28 and the curse, if ye shall not hearken unto the commandments of YHVH your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day ...

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 in that I command thee this day to love YHVH thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that YHVH thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

Deu 30:17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; 20 to love YHVH thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land ...

Perhaps you missed the parallel between Deuteronomy 9 and Romans 11.

(Rom. 11:18) is speaking to salvation being found in Israel or the Gentiles. Before, it was in Israel. (John 4:22) "Ye worship ye know not what:we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Really? John 4:22? That's your "prooftext" regarding Romans 11:18? I don't even have to look that up. He was speaking to a Samaritan woman. It is telling Gentiles not to glory over those broken off. Just as Deuteronomy 9:4 was telling them not to think in their hearts ... So also should not we think such a thing.

Rom 11:25c ... lest ye be wise in your own conceits,


Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

This echoes Deuteronomy 9:4.

But now the door is open to the Gentiles. (Eph. 2:11-13) But just as God closed the door to Israel, God can close the door to the Gentiles and reopen it to Israel. And why did he close the door? Sin? Yes, the sin of unbelief, which you quoted. (11:20) And we stand how? By faith. Which you quoted. (11:20)

Indeed.

Rom 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. 22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[KBCid]

Rom 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. 22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

I wonder why an inspired writer... an apostle would make reference to the 10 commandments if IN FACT observing God's moral code is incorrect or an ACT OF THE LAW???????????

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Why should the Holy Spirit make mention of not killing or stealing or coveting which are absolutely the OT commandments of the God that Christians say they follow if in fact doing such a thing is against the way one should go?
How is it that all those old worn out useless laws intended only for Jews and thrown away by Christ's actions are now brought to the attention of those claiming to be Christian and the assertion is that all those old useless laws that current "Christians " feel have been done away with are now being shown to be included as a summation of "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"

So if one asserts that "I'm a Christian" and they kill or steal or covet or any of those OT commands that have supposedly been done away with they are actually breaking the NEW COVENANT LAW that says that breaking those laws is a sin.

And yet these will continue in the belief that following any laws are against God's will.

 

[Richard_oti]

I wonder why an inspired writer... an apostle would make reference to the 10 commandments if IN FACT observing God's moral code is incorrect or an ACT OF THE LAW???????????

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Why should the Holy Spirit make mention of not killing or stealing or coveting which are absolutely the OT commandments of the God that Christians say they follow if in fact doing such a thing is against the way one should go?
How is it that all those old worn out useless laws intended only for Jews and thrown away by Christ's actions are now brought to the attention of those claiming to be Christian and the assertion is that all those old useless laws that current "Christians " feel have been done away with are now being shown to be included as a summation of "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"

So if one asserts that "I'm a Christian" and they kill or steal or covet or any of those OT commands that have supposedly been done away with they are actually breaking the NEW COVENANT LAW that says that breaking those laws is a sin.

And yet these will continue in the belief that following any laws are against God's will.

Most have no qualms with regard to nine. But the fourth of the ten is now primarily changed into one of two different things: Either it was changed to Sunday, or that Jesus is our rest. Yes, I have seen other attempts, but those are the two primary ones. Even though Shabat was from creation and has not changed. It is a sign between YHVH and His people, it is one of things by which His people are peculiar unto Him. Hebrews 4 is clear, "as 'God' did from His". Rather than the plain reading of it, there are so many different ways in which it is attempted to be made into something that just is not there.

As you already know, for myself the pshat [plain and simple] reading is that which I adhere unto. No understanding nor interpretation may overthrow the pshat reading. Otherwise, we may as well start ripping pages from our Bibles and flinging them into the sea.

IMO: One of the problems, is the lack of fully realizing who we are in Christ. For we are those "grafted" in. Grafted into what?

 

[KBCid]

IMO: One of the problems, is the lack of fully realizing who we are in Christ. For we are those "grafted" in. Grafted into what?

aren't we grafted into whatever people can imagine? We certainly aren't grafted into those old Jews who killed the savior... you know the one who takes all the rules away so that just like peter pan we can be freeeee..... all ya gotta do is believe right? and you can act anyway you want and do anything you want. lol

 

[Richard_oti]

aren't we grafted into whatever people can imagine? We certainly aren't grafted into those old Jews who killed the savior... you know the one who takes all the rules away so that just like peter pan we can be freeeee..... all ya gotta do is believe right? and you can act anyway you want and do anything you want. lol

<chuckle> You remind me of a dear brother from my past. Are you gonna git me in trouble like he used too? Don't answer that, it is rhetorical in nature and I already know the answer.

B'ahavah 'Akhi