You Probably Believe This Lie

[360watt]

Everytime with threads like this one.. there is a mixing of eternal salvation, with what believers are commanded after being converted.

This is where the confusion comes in. A verse intended to be about intially getting salvation gets put in the 'only getting this at the end of your life' box.. a verse about what we do after having been given salvation in response.. not conditional on salvation.. gets put in the 'if you don't do this, you lose salvation' box.

Context is key.. carefully looking at who is talking to whom and what the subject is.. filters out the difference between initial conversion and serving God because of this initial conversion being given.

Good examples are in James 2. Many like to bring out the verse 'faith without works is dead'.. but what kind of faith is being discussed by James?

Initial conversion or acts of service from people who already have been given salvation.. already have faith?

 

[Scott Downey]

Everytime with threads like this one.. there is a mixing of eternal salvation, with what believers are commanded after being converted.

This is where the confusion comes in. A verse intended to be about intially getting salvation gets put in the 'only getting this at the end of your life' box.. a verse about what we do after having been given salvation in response.. not conditional on salvation.. gets put in the 'if you don't do this, you lose salvation' box.

Context is key.. carefully looking at who is talking to whom and what the subject is.. filters out the difference between initial conversion and serving God because of this initial conversion being given.

Good examples are in James 2. Many like to bring out the verse 'faith without works is dead'.. but what kind of faith is being discussed by James?

Initial conversion or acts of service from people who already have been given salvation.. already have faith?

John 5, Christ tells us these religious jews did not even believe what Moses wrote.
Such is a man who God has not made born of God, they do not believe in the Son, nor do they believe what the prophets wrote about HIM.
And so then none of them are willing to Come to Christ to have eternal life.. Unless born of God, you will be like them too.

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31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not [e]true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
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In v38, these unbelieving religious jews do not have God's word abiding in their heart. They are not born of God, If they were of God they would have listened to Christ, loved Him and believed in Him when He appears in their life, as that is what the Spirit of God does, HE leads people to Christ.

 

[Keturah]

What right do we have to call foul on other players. We have a coach, an ump and an owner, they are to call the rules of the game and yes life is a game.

Our owner is God for he grants us the right to be his children.

Our coach is Jesus Christ who has laid out the strategy that we must KNOW him through rebirth, follow his plan only on the narrow strait path and obey in love and truth!

Our umpire is the sweet blessed Holy Spirit of God. He teaches us the word and implants it into our hearts. He convicts or calls foul when we get it wrong or step out of bounds. He grooms us to bear his fruit and reveals truth as seen in heaven.

Let us live as not to offend but let us convince other players they are on the wrong team by our love our life and God's grace.

 

[Triumph1300]

About Simon (earlier in this thread).....After hearing Peter's rebuke, Simon responds by asking the apostles to pray for him so that none of Peter's words would become reality. That is how the encounter ends. Simon does not ask for salvation, but repents of the specific sin that Peter addressed ("this your wickedness," v. 22). This describes the response of a believer rather than someone who is initially believing in Christ for salvation.

 

[Gospel Believer]

What verse is that ... I could not find that combination of words in any translation of any verse and wanted to read both the original and the surrounding context.

How would * I* know? It must be somewhere in the back!


Lol.....sorry.....that’s an old Homer Simpson Joke.....can never resist using it......try John5:24....John 3:18 is also another good Proof of the validity of OSAS....

Ad Homenim. You’re obstinate and have nothing to say about Jesus not saving unflavored salt or branches that don’t produce fruit.


Real faith involves action. Faith does not include the action of ongoing sinning as the verses cited testifies. I look forward to your thoughtful rejoinder.

Hey ! Give me a little time! I “ DO” have a life outside of these Forums, believe it or not....I’ve dealt with this stuff so many times it gets harder and harder to be enthused....

 

[Gospel Believer]

1 John 5:1

ESV
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Believing that Jesus is the Christ is a mark, a characteristic of faith, that proves God has made you born of God. That is why you believe.
God grants you your faith in Christ, that is shown in many scriptures.
The interesting fact is God first makes someone born of God, then they believe, and since salvation like this is eternal, it is an accomplished work of God in your life that cannot be undone.

Your individual salvation, your faith, belief, your very life, God has given all of that to you that makes up your entire life.

While we do make a choice to believe it is an accomplished work of God that led you to that, something that none can resist. Look at the life of Saul becoming Paul. Even while persecuting the church, God was at work in Paul, but Paul was resisting God until God sovereignly moved to an extreme divine revelation.
But at that revelation Christ did for Paul, he then at that point had already made Paul born of God, otherwise Paul would still have fallen away in unbelief later on. Yet still before that God was at work directing Paul to this place in his life, even though not yet born again.

Acts 9:5
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, (hint he came before creation so was not of this creation, uncreated, but His body was created by God) and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Even His own did not receive HIM as God's Christ, only reason anyone receives Christ is God has first made them born of God.
You do not receive HIM by your will of your flesh, the will of man. It is the Spirit which gives LIFE, the flesh profits nothing!

Another example from the OT, is how Israel had seen all the might acts of God, but still, they did not believe in God, as God had not changed their heart, ears, eyes to understand. the unregenerated do not continue to follow Christ, they will all fall away eventually.

You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. To enter the kingdom of God you must believe Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father, that HE is the I AM that came down from Heaven to do the will of God to be your savior. Being born again always come first.

Deuteronomy 29

1 These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to [a]perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

The reason people do not enter the 'promised land' is they do not believe the promises of God.
Today the promised land is the New Covenant, eternal life with God as a citizen of Heaven.

Yet you can not come to Christ and believe in Him unless God has granted that for you, otherwise you will not believe. That is the ugly state of being bound in sin, how Satan has blinded the minds of those who do not believe who are perishing. Only Christ can set you free from Satan's mind control.

Salvation is never assigned to a group of people, it is always individually given by God.
John 6
Christ came down from HEAVEN, sent by GOD, Christ was not just a man, He was God come in the flesh, born into a body God had prepared for Himself. If Christ was only a man, he was lying when HE said HE came down from heaven.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Excellent post! Reminds me of some pertinent stuff....



“ Nobody comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”......the impetus for Salvation belongs to God

In regard to going beyond just “hearing” to actually “Believing” the Gospel That Saves today ( 1Cor15:1-4) it was said of “Lydia, the seller of purple” in the Book Of Acts That God had to “ open her heart” to receive and Believe the Gospel ..... It’s true for everybody.....pray that you Unsaved Friends become “ Lydias”...

 

[Gottservant]

In order to believe the Lie that you can lose your Salvation , you must first believe the additional Lie that you Earned your Salvation....

Comments?

Great observation!

I would phrase it differently though "In order to start believing that you can lose your Salvation, you must first believe the preceding lie that you earned your Salvation"

The difference is that the precursor suggests losing Salvation happens immediately - it can't - and the addendum suggests that one lie builds on another - they don't.

Fundamentally though, you are right: you can't lose something that is given to you (as long as you believe in the Giver).

 

[Gospel Believer]

Ad Homenim. You’re obstinate and have nothing to say about Jesus not saving unflavored salt or branches that don’t produce fruit.


Real faith involves action. Faith does not include the action of ongoing sinning as the verses cited testifies. I look forward to your thoughtful rejoinder.

I found this gem ....thought it might help you to understand....it explains this better than I can...


It’s important to understand that salvation is not a fruit bearing event. It’s what you do after you’re saved that determines whether you’re fruitful.

Jesus explained that believers can only bear fruit if they remain in Him, that apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:5). That means the things we do have to be at His request and in His strength to have value to Him. Things we do on our own have no value. They’re like a withered branch that is burned in the fire. So this passage is not about whether we can lose our salvation. It’s about whether the things we do as believers have value to Him or not. Otherwise, Jesus would have been contradicting His earlier statements.

Paul explained this in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 saying some of our work is like gold, silver, and precious gems. This is the work we do in the Lord’s strength and has much value. Other work is like wood, hay, and straw. This is the work we do in our own strength and has no value. In 1 Cor. 3:15 Paul said even if all our work is burned up, we’ll still be saved.

So, as you can see there’s no connection between OSAS and fruitfulness. That’s because it’s our belief that saves us, not our behavior. Unfruitful believers may not receive crowns or other heavenly rewards, but they cannot lose their salvation.

 

[atpollard]

Lol.....sorry.....that’s an old Homer Simpson Joke.....can never resist using it......try John5:24....John 3:18 is also another good Proof of the validity of OSAS....

I have no idea how it happened, but someone with Welsh, Norwegian and Italian grandparents somehow ended up with a "Berean soul".
I was not doubting OSAS [although I would call it "Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints"], rather: any time somebody says 'THUS SAYS SCRIPTURE', I have an irresistible urge to look up that Scripture and read it for myself. (Did they add words? Did they remove words? What do the surrounding verses say and does that change the context?)

You used John 5:24 but changed the plural words to singular which tricked my word search across multiple translations. So I just needed to find the exact verse you quoted but did not name the Book, chapter and verse for [So I could scratch that Berean itch.]

 

[Scott Downey]

I found this gem ....thought it might help you to understand....it explains this better than I can...


It’s important to understand that salvation is not a fruit bearing event. It’s what you do after you’re saved that determines whether you’re fruitful.

Jesus explained that believers can only bear fruit if they remain in Him, that apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:5). That means the things we do have to be at His request and in His strength to have value to Him. Things we do on our own have no value. They’re like a withered branch that is burned in the fire. So this passage is not about whether we can lose our salvation. It’s about whether the things we do as believers have value to Him or not. Otherwise, Jesus would have been contradicting His earlier statements.

Paul explained this in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 saying some of our work is like gold, silver, and precious gems. This is the work we do in the Lord’s strength and has much value. Other work is like wood, hay, and straw. This is the work we do in our own strength and has no value. In 1 Cor. 3:15 Paul said even if all our work is burned up, we’ll still be saved.

So, as you can see there’s no connection between OSAS and fruitfulness. That’s because it’s our belief that saves us, not our behavior. Unfruitful believers may not receive crowns or other heavenly rewards, but they cannot lose their salvation.

All believers will bear good fruit. That fruitfulness is ordained of God, and is the fruit of the Spirit in every believer's life, the love, joy peace patience goodness gentleness faithfulness self control, is a product of the Spirit who works in them.

John 15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
.
All must and will bear goof fruit to God if they are saved, and there is a difference between good fruit and good works.
Good fruit is more along the fruit of the Spirit and show how God has changed us, while good works benefit men, other people.
Both are important. Both are ordained of God for believers, interestingly, God has already prepared beforehand the good works a person will do.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Behold]

The idea that salvation can be lost is due to men thinking as men think--

Reader,.

"Men thinking as men think" is not Men Thinking as God thinks.
So, there is the actual reason that both unbelievers ... and deceived believers, THINK......both.......that Salvation can be lost.

Why do they think this?
Its because in both cases they are become a servant to their SELF Righteousness. (trying to be right with God based on SELF Effort). instead of trusting in Christ alone to save them AND keep them saved.<<

To be that one, is to be "fallen from GRACE"

GRACE, is GOD's salvation, freely given, based on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

John 14:6

So, there is SALVATiON found.......= the Cross of Christ.

The DECEIVED believer, or unbeliever......do not recognize or understand that the Cross of Christ is GOD's SALVATiON that He came here to die to offer us on THE CROSS.

Salvation is not a what.
Salvation is a WHO.

JESUS is Salvation.
If you have JESUS IN YOU, then you are born again, and that is the only PROOF you are saved and going to heaven.

 

[Brakelite]

God will not save anybody that is “trying” to be Saved—- he will Save anybody That is “ Trusting” to be Saved....

And if you stop trusting?

 

[Wrangler]

It’s important to understand that salvation is not a fruit bearing event. It’s what you do after you’re saved that determines whether you’re fruitful.

The OSAS is a Circular Reasoning doctrine. You assert it as being true and write things like above, ignoring the not being saved implication of the verse. Burning a branch is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of saving it, of being saved. More than that is OSAS ignores the many compilation of verses that go against the doctrine.

The irony is you accused me of taking Hebrews 10:26 out of context. Let's review the text. For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Notice how this verse says nothing about being fruitful? Notice how this verse says nothing about disbelief, as you allege? Notice what the text does say and what it implies?

There no longer remains a sacrifice for sin. What sacrifice for sins no longer remain? In context, this is referring to ones actions that the finished work of Christ on the cross does not cover. And there are many other verses that talk about believers (presumed to be saved) who sin and are commanded to not only ask for forgiveness but to forgive. There can be only one reason why this action is necessary. It is consistent with Hebrews 10:26, there no longer remains a sacrifice for such sins.

Why would Jesus tell us to reconcile with your brother before bringing your gift to the alter? The sin with your brother has come betwen you and God. Jesus himself said not all who call me Lord Lord, will be saved. And on and on and on, Scripture assails the OSAS doctrine. What is the rejection criteria of the OSAS? What set of words would disprove it?

 

[Behold]

It’s important to understand that salvation is not a fruit bearing event. It’s what you do after you’re saved that determines whether you’re fruitful.

And if you are a good disciple or if you are not a good disciple you are still and always a disciple, because being BORN AGAIN, is not caused by your good behavior, nor is it ended by your bad behavior.

Salvation is a GIFT from God. = never earned and never lost.

How ridiculous is this nutty idea = this completely biblically ignorant theology that is..."you can lose your salvation"?

Let me show you.

For you to lose your salvation, you would have to be "un-born again".

Jesus would have to leave you, and the LORD JESUS THE CHRIST, told you that "i will never LEAVE YOU".
So did He lie?
Not quite.

God would have to stop finishing your salvation. Philippians 1:6

Jesus would have to stop being the finisher of your Faith. Hebrews 12:2

Add what is more......

The born again are IN the Spirit of God, being born again into it, and God and Christ and the Holy Spirit are IN the Born again, Spiritually.
So, if you went to hell, So would THEY.

Now, just how STUPID and Theologically BACKWARDS..... is such a theology that teaches all you just read?
Yet Pulpits will teach you that JUNK and so will DECEIVERS on a FORUM teach you the same DEVIL LED Theolgical Junk.

Learn to hear them, and protect yourself from them., as these DARK LIGHTS will break your faith if you dont pay attention to what they are teaching you.

 

[Wrangler]

Salvation is a GIFT from God. = never earned and never lost, once you are born again.

What Scripture verse says that?

 

[Gospel Believer]

And if you are a good disciple or if you are not a good disciple you are still and always a disciple, because being BORN AGAIN, is not caused by your good behavior, nor is it ended by your bad behavior.

Salvation is a GIFT from God. = never earned and never lost, once you are born again.

Just another wise and insightful post from the guy who does it routinely.......thanks for your input ! May God continue to bless you with your insight and zeal for promoting His True Gospel....it gets very lonely out here sometimes....lol....

 

[Gospel Believer]

What Scripture verse says that?

If I may interject here.....Salvation is a GIFT—- Given to those that DO NOT work for it! Romans 4:5—— “ But to Him THAT DOES NOT WORK, but Believes in the One that JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY —- to Him, His FAITH is Counted as Righteousness”
“ The GIFTS of God IRREVOCABLE” Romans 11:29

 

[Gospel Believer]

And if you stop trusting?

“ And if we are Unfaithful, He REMAINS FAITHFUL”.....2Timothy 2:13

 

[Behold]

What Scripture verse says that?

John 4:10

Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the GIFT of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

Romans 5:15

But the FREE GIFT is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:32

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him FREELY GIVE us all things?

2 Corinthians 9:15

Thanks be to God for His indescribable GIFT!

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God;

 

[Gospel Believer]

Why do they think this?
Its because in both cases they are become a servant to their SELF Righteousness. (trying to be right with God based on SELF Effort). instead of trusting in Christ alone to save them AND keep them saved.<<

To be that one, is to be "fallen from GRACE"



.....it even gets worse than that....in the same passage , it says that those that that attempt to ADD to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace with Anything or “ Severed From Christ”......
Scary stuff.....I would not want to be in that position.....some had better pray with all of their might that “ Falling from Grace” and being “ Severed from Christ” are not tantamount to Damnation....many Bible Teachers say that this is the case.....

Guys like me who actually “ Believe” that Old Hymn That they so often sing — “ Nothing But The Blood” , don’t have to worry about those verses.....how about you? Are you among the majority that says , “ Jesus Saves— BUT!” Good luck with that thinking when you stand before Him.....You wanna be “ Co- Savior? “ , saying that Jesus might be “ Essential” for Salvation , He just isn’t “ Adequate “ for Salvation- “ Give * ME* some of that Glory! “ you will be saying......Sorry, God won’t have it.