Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, many don't realize it, but being 'born again' actually involves a 'literal' change to our spirit/soul when that happens. So it's not just a meaningless slogan like many think. I can't really say it involves a 'physical' change to the spirit/soul simply because the word 'physical' applies to the material world of matter. It's a spiritual change, but one with actual substance. It's about removing the assigned death sentence to the future lake of fire that is upon every spirit/soul inherited from Adam's fall. This is why Rev.20 reveals the unsaved even after Christ's future return, will still be subject to the "second death" of perishing in the "lake of fire".

I remember the moment when sin left my nature. It was a heaviness and I felt it lift off of me, and I felt lighter

I'm not a Catholic, so I don't believe in their Purgatory idea. I believe how things are is like Jesus showed in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. That's about Paradise. On one side is where the saved are, and on the other is where hell and Satan's pit prison house of darkness is.

That depiction of where they go after death was for those before Christ died and the New Covenant started. Now the spirit of the saved go straight to heaven. As for the damned they either went to the same place as the rich man did, or is in the outer darkness. Otherwise, I don't know when the outer darkness happens and for whom.

 

[Davy]

So why do you need a saviour if you you are immortal. You have eternal life of your own, is that what the Bible teaches. Of course not.

So the 'rich man' of Luke 16 when his flesh died and was buried, and he was carried to hell, that means his soul was DEAD per your belief? How could he go there without a flesh body? The rich man while in torments in hell, HOW could he see Abraham and Lazarus across the great fixed border, and even speak to Abraham, if his soul had died?

Here is what you have missed... in your Bible study:

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (geena, NT:1067).
KJV

That 'geena' is a word used to point to the future "lake of fire" perishing that happens after Christ's future "thousand years" reign, per Rev.20. It is from the Hebrew about the valley of Hinnom which was a perpetual garbage burning pit outside the city of Jerusalem. Old Israel when they fell worse into false worship sacrificed their children in that fire, when God said such a thing never even entered His Mind.

The above verse says "both soul and body" are destroyed by God in the "lake of fire" (geena).

So the type of 'body' of the "resurrection of damnation" is what? (John 5:28-29, both resurrection types happen on the day of Christ's future return per that Scripture.)

 

[Davy]

Close, but it's actually that only God is immortal.. until... He gives someone the gift of eternal life. Those in hell do not have the gift of eternal life. Therefore, the human soul is only conditionally immortal. The condition being God's decision.

1 Tim 6
16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

"Conditionally immortal"? I'd agree with that idea. It's difficult to explain anyway, because so many brethren lack deeper Bible study.

God's Word shows that He created our soul and spirit in the 'eternal state', and it is of the heavenly order, not of this earthly order. That means we cannot simply assign fleshy reason to its operation.

How confused do many get when reading 2 Corinthians 5 by Apostle Paul when he revealed that if our outward flesh tabernacle (flesh body) were suddenly dissolved, we still have a building of God, a house not made with hands, (i.e., not made of flesh), ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS...

2 Cor 5:1-2
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
KJV

I've discovered many brethren simply refuse to believe what Paul said above in simplicity. I've said the very same thing about our soul/spirit. It's in an 'eternal' condition UNLESS God casts it in the future "lake of fire" at the "second death", and it perishes with one's spirit.

So I really wish brethren would listen to God in His Word on these things, instead of men's doctrines based on fleshy reasoning.

 

[Davy]

The first red flag that I have that there's no such thing as an "immortal soul" is that the Catholics teach it. And therefore, I believe there is no such thing if the Catholics believe there is. I base this on the Catholics track record of never being right about anything.

Why use the Catholics as a measure of what is truth, even as a negative measure? Why not simply resort to the Word of God?

2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul revealed that our 'other' body, i.e., our spirit body with soul, are "eternal in the heavens". That doesn't just apply to those in Christ either. The soul/spirit is of the heavenly order, not flesh order. God designed our soul/spirit to be 'eternal' UNLESS He destroys it in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20.

So we really have more than enough Scripture examples to explain this matter. It's up to us to study it. Haven't you ever wondered what body those raised to the "resurrection of damnation" will have when Jesus returns? (John 5:28-29)

 

[Davy]

You're right. I didn't mean to imply that he dropped dead. LOL But that his body would start to age and eventually die. And all his descendants would be mortal, not immortal.

The 'immortal' idea doesn't apply to 'flesh' though.

God created each one of us with a flesh body, and in it He placed our created spirit with a soul. The flesh part is of this earthly dimension. The spirit/soul part is of the heavenly dimension. That's 2 different orders of operation.

When our flesh body dies, and this is per Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, there is a thing Solomon called the "silver cord" that keeps our spirit/soul attached to our flesh body. When our flesh dies, that "silver cord" is severed, and our flesh goes back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit/soul goes back to God Who gave it, meaning in the heavenly. That means 'we' as an 'individual person', do not die when we go back to God in that heavenly dimension. Our spirit/soul is still alive, like Jesus showed in Matt.10:28.

 

[Peterlag]

Why use the Catholics as a measure of what is truth, even as a negative measure? Why not simply resort to the Word of God?

2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul revealed that our 'other' body, i.e., our spirit body with soul, are "eternal in the heavens". That doesn't just apply to those in Christ either. The soul/spirit is of the heavenly order, not flesh order. God designed our soul/spirit to be 'eternal' UNLESS He destroys it in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20.

So we really have more than enough Scripture examples to explain this matter. It's up to us to study it. Haven't you ever wondered what body those raised to the "resurrection of damnation" will have when Jesus returns? (John 5:28-29)

Two things come to mind...

1.) I use the Catholics because of the red flag that I listed. It is probably not true if they teach it.

2.) You have my attention since I have never been able to get any one to answer my question that I asked a long time ago which is if the soul is just breath life, and the body rots and the spirit goes back to God. Then what are the dead? And then there's what gets up for Israel which was before the spirit of Christ was given. So I think you are teaching me something here.

 

[Davy]

I remember the moment when sin left my nature. It was a heaviness and I felt it lift off of me, and I felt lighter

I've heard many new babes in Christ give that testimony. Glad for ya.

That depiction of where they go after death was for those before Christ died and the New Covenant started. Now the spirit of the saved go straight to heaven. As for the damned they either went to the same place as the rich man did, or is in the outer darkness. Otherwise, I don't know when the outer darkness happens and for whom.

The outer darkness, the way I understand it per Bible Scripture, will be a place of separation outside the holy city when Jesus returns. Jesus pointed to for after His future return, in Matt.8, Matt.22, and Matt.25.

But here in Rev.22 is another example, which is for the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign after His return...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

Even though that is written in Rev.22, it is pointing to the time of Rev.20 when Jesus and His elect are still reigning over the unsaved wicked. At the end of Rev.20 those will perish at the "second death". But during Christ's future reign, those will be outside the gates of the new Jerusalem. That suggests where the "outer darkness" will be.

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Two things come to mind...

1.) I use the Catholics because of the red flag that I listed. It is probably not true if they teach it.

2.) You have my attention since I have never been able to get any one to answer my question that I asked a long time ago which is if the soul is just breath life, and the body rots and the spirit goes back to God. Then what are the dead? And then there's what gets up for Israel which was before the spirit of Christ was given. So I think you are teaching me something here.

Keep plowing brother.

 

[Peterlag]

WOW.... How wrong can you be.....

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away their “spirit” they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches… (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus
gave up his Spirit but not His Soul... An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.

What you post here is what I was also taught. But I still have the same question. What are the dead? If the spirit goes back to God, the soul which is breath life leaves and the body rots. Then what gets up at the return of Christ? What are the dead?

 

[Runningman]

"Conditionally immortal"? I'd agree with that idea. It's difficult to explain anyway, because so many brethren lack deeper Bible study.

God's Word shows that He created our soul and spirit in the 'eternal state', and it is of the heavenly order, not of this earthly order. That means we cannot simply assign fleshy reason to its operation.

How confused do many get when reading 2 Corinthians 5 by Apostle Paul when he revealed that if our outward flesh tabernacle (flesh body) were suddenly dissolved, we still have a building of God, a house not made with hands, (i.e., not made of flesh), ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS...

2 Cor 5:1-2
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
KJV

I've discovered many brethren simply refuse to believe what Paul said above in simplicity. I've said the very same thing about our soul/spirit. It's in an 'eternal' condition UNLESS God casts it in the future "lake of fire" at the "second death", and it perishes with one's spirit.

So I really wish brethren would listen to God in His Word on these things, instead of men's doctrines based on fleshy reasoning.

Hello Davy. Do those in hell get eternal life? Perhaps we can glean something about the mortality of the soul from Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians.

1 Cor 15
53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

 

[Peterlag]

My first year as a Christian I was taught the soul is breath life and leaves the body at death. The body rots and the spirit goes back to God. So at the age of twenty years old I asked then what are the dead? What gets up? Never received an answer to my satisfaction. So today a few years later I looked up the word "soul" and found this...

Soul: One of the manifestations of life that is also manifested in animals. Hence breath, but not just breath as mere air, but as the sign of life. It denotes the vital principle in animal bodies, and also of a dead person (Leviticus 21:11) and of those raised.

Job 33:22
Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,...

In contrast with those yet unraised it can die or be killed and it goes to the grave; Leviticus 24:17-18, Judges 16:30, Numbers 23:10. Well, hallelujah it goes to the grave. Now I have an idea what the dead are and therefore what gets up. The spirit of Christ must be involved with the soul somehow because of our new nature. I don't know where the memory would be and if I don't get up with a memory then it's not me getting up. Yeah the spirit of Christ has to be intertwined because of...

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

It is identified with the blood and the spirit never is.

Genesis 9:4
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.”

Leviticus 17:11, 14
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

My soul is the same as me; Numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30, 1 Kings 20:32.

 

[Peterlag]

Keep plowing brother.

I did keep plowing. See my post on page 131. Should be just above this. It's what you taught me.

 

[Davy]

Hello Davy. Do those in hell get eternal life? Perhaps we can glean something about the mortality of the soul from Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians.

1 Cor 15
53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 with His elect, is over the 'unsaved' nations then. And because a "FIRST resurrection" is mentioned about Christ's Church, that ordinal "first" suggests there will be at least one more resurrection LIKE that 1st one, in Christ Jesus.

The devil's servants try to hide that idea by claiming the suggested 2nd resurrection will be the wicked raised out of their graves only at the GWT Judgment event, to perish in the lake of fire. No, the suggested one more resurrection at the GWT Judgment is to see if there are any names at that point written in the book of life (Rev.20:15).

One of our duties as priests in that time of Christ's future 1,000 years reign over the nations, will be to teach the unsaved The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the difference between the holy and the profane. It will not be said in that future whether or not one has heard of The LORD, for as written all will know Him in that time. There will be 'converts' to Christ during that 1,000 years reign over the unsaved nations. That is who the suggested 2nd resurrection will be about, a resurrection of life in Christ Jesus. Then those who still reject The Father and His Son will go into the lake of fire.

 

[Davy]

My first year as a Christian I was taught the soul is breath life and leaves the body at death. The body rots and the spirit goes back to God. So at the age of twenty years old I asked then what are the dead? What gets up? Never received an answer to my satisfaction. So today a few years later I looked up the word "soul" and found this...

Soul: One of the manifestations of life that is also manifested in animals. Hence breath, but not just breath as mere air, but as the sign of life. It denotes the vital principle in animal bodies, and also of a dead person (Leviticus 21:11) and of those raised.

Job 33:22
Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,...

In contrast with those yet unraised it can die or be killed and it goes to the grave; Leviticus 24:17-18, Judges 16:30, Numbers 23:10. Well, hallelujah it goes to the grave. Now I have an idea what the dead are and therefore what gets up. The spirit of Christ must be involved with the soul somehow because of our new nature. I don't know where the memory would be and if I don't get up with a memory then it's not me getting up. Yeah the spirit of Christ has to be intertwined because of...

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

It is identified with the blood and the spirit never is.

Genesis 9:4
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.”

Leviticus 17:11, 14
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

My soul is the same as me; Numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30, 1 Kings 20:32.

Well, in The New Testament, the soul and spirit are often treated as interchangeable. Kind of makes sense because both soul and spirit are attached to each other. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 shows our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. Many have wrongly interpreted that 'spirit' to mean like just a drop of God's Spirit going back into GOD Himself, like it is the same spirit of life given all living things, but that's not the meaning. The reason is because in Matthew 10:28 Jesus showed that our 'soul' does not die when our flesh dies, so that means our soul and spirit go back together to God at flesh death.

And with testimony from Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 about Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to them, that also reveals we still have conscious awareness after flesh death.

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul showed simply that if our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, we still have another building from God, not made of flesh, eternal in the heavens. That is about our spirit body with soul. Even though the subject of near-death-experience (NDE) isn't real popular, that is actually in agreement with Scripture. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh, temporarily (NDE), or at death (permanently).

In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, Solomon revealed the existence of a "silver cord".

Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

That reveals at death of our flesh, that "silver cord" is loosed, or severed, removed. It's pointing to that "silver cord" is what holds our spirit/soul in our flesh body. That also reveals it is severed only at death of our flesh. What about with a NDE event?

Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 12 pointed to an out of body experience, which is how those who've had an NDE describe their experience. With an NDE, one's "silver cord" is evidently still connected, as their soul/spirit returns to their flesh body, like the one Paul was describing.

1 Kings 17:21-22
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, "O LORD my God, I pray Thee, let this child's soul come into him again."

22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
KJV

 

[Peterlag]

Well, in The New Testament, the soul and spirit are often treated as interchangeable. Kind of makes sense because both soul and spirit are attached to each other. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 shows our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. Many have wrongly interpreted that 'spirit' to mean like just a drop of God's Spirit going back into GOD Himself, like it is the same spirit of life given all living things, but that's not the meaning. The reason is because in Matthew 10:28 Jesus showed that our 'soul' does not die when our flesh dies, so that means our soul and spirit go back together to God at flesh death.

And with testimony from Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 about Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to them, that also reveals we still have conscious awareness after flesh death.

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV

In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul showed simply that if our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, we still have another building from God, not made of flesh, eternal in the heavens. That is about our spirit body with soul. Even though the subject of near-death-experience (NDE) isn't real popular, that is actually in agreement with Scripture. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh, temporarily (NDE), or at death (permanently).

In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, Solomon revealed the existence of a "silver cord".

Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

That reveals at death of our flesh, that "silver cord" is loosed, or severed, removed. It's pointing to that "silver cord" is what holds our spirit/soul in our flesh body. That also reveals it is severed only at death of our flesh. What about with a NDE event?

Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 12 pointed to an out of body experience, which is how those who've had an NDE describe their experience. With an NDE, one's "silver cord" is evidently still connected, as their soul/spirit returns to their flesh body, like the one Paul was describing.

1 Kings 17:21-22
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, "O LORD my God, I pray Thee, let this child's soul come into him again."

22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
KJV

Interesting. Thanks for the post. My teacher tells me the silver cord is the spinal cord.

 

[Pierac]

I’ll go with the one that agrees with the entirety of scripture....the one that supports the fact that God designed humans to live forever on earth......to not only enjoy his creation, but to study it carefully so as to know it’s Creator and to be the best caretakers of creation next to God himself......the very reason why we are created in God’s image and likeness......I choose box #2.

You know, Pierac, if you climbed down off your high horse a bit and lost your superior attitude, people I’m sure would be more inclined to dialogue with you.......and you would see that not every one is an idiot, as I am sure you would not like others to think that way of you...?

I have seen you post things that I agree with, and things that I strongly disagree with.....but everything should be open for discussion....honest, civil, adult discussion, not childish name calling and looking down your nose at people....Jesus never did that. Take a leaf......

Now you are starting to see the Truth...

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

No one knows all... Not even Paul

So... It would appear we must seek All ... To even begin to see the Truth... How do we differ and how do we see the same truth!

Now you know why I'm here...

Peace Sister..

 

[Pierac]

What you post here is what I was also taught. But I still have the same question. What are the dead? If the spirit goes back to God, the soul which is breath life leaves and the body rots. Then what gets up at the return of Christ? What are the dead?

The dead... are born again... That's what gave Nicodemus...like you so much trouble/confusion... about being born again...

It does not happen at death.... You must be born again... AT... Your ressurection!

Think... and review your research...
The othe Paul...

 

[Pierac]

I will address this scripture though.....without the faecal matter...

It’s the way you read scripture in isolated verses that fails to promote the obvious truth contained in them.....

In context, what was Paul saying.....? (Vs 18-25)
“For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope“

What is the “hope” upon which the futility of this awful life was imposed on us? It was the restoration of what God first purposed in Eden.....to have humans live forever in paradise on earth with no knowledge of evil whatsoever. That is what we glean from Genesis chapters 1-3....which tells us the very reason why God put us here on planet Earth....what went wrong....and how God restores all that was taken from us by those first rebels. It involves an unpleasant and often painful life situation....but it is all worth the reward at the end.

As Paul goes on to say....

“21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.”

Apparently some do not see why we have to suffer, and resent the fact that they do....these have lost sight of the “hope”...or perhaps they never had it to begin with? No amount of suffering in this life can compare to an eternity of living forever without death, sickness, old age and vile, undisciplined people causing angst for everyone else because they cannot control themselves. See the contrast....(Gal 5:19-24)


Read 1 Cor 13:4-7 and see why “love never fails”. This is why we need endurance so that we do not lose sight of the reward because we stopped hoping....these are the qualities we need if we want the life God that is offering us.

My Dear Aunty Jane....

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

You need to spend some time on this verse... It's speaks volumes!!!

You problem is your trying to fit this verse into your Church World View....

You can not convert some one to Christianity... only God can! Thus why there was no... alter call for the first 1800 years!!!

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

You focus on your human ideas of some Heaven and Hell... The above verses are about the coming 1000yr Kingdom...

BTY... Look into the word eternal in scripture... It would be helpful for you .... even if it took you AGES to see... Lol
Paul

 

[Aunty Jane]

Now you are starting to see the Truth...

And still there is this superior attitude… ..what makes you think you have to yell at people to correct everyone who holds a different view? Are you the only one with knowledge of the scriptures? Do you see yourself as single-handedly sent by God to the people of the world to impart your truth to them? (Matthew 28:19-20) What if your truth isn’t God’s truth?

Are you part of a global brotherhood who gathers regularly for worship and spiritual instruction….to “incite to love and fine works” (Heb 10:24-25) in all nations? If not, then you cannot even call yourself a “Christian” because God’s people have always been organized for worship prescribed by Jehovah, not by any man.

Christ gathered people and offered them instruction and insight on the scriptures, and some became his disciples, but the majority did not…..God did not force people to listen to his son, but allowed their own hearts to respond to his teachings, of their own free will. When God saw a response in their hearts, he ‘drew’ (attracted) them to want to learn more.

I saw “the truth” a very long time ago…..and that is what I post on these threads so that people can read and decide for themselves if there is anything in my words that conveys the truth of scripture, rather than perpetuating the lies taught by Christendom for centuries.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

No one knows all... Not even Paul

True, he did not know it all back then, but I assure you, he does now.

So... It would appear we must seek All ... To even begin to see the Truth... How do we differ and how do we see the same truth!

Now you know why I'm here...

Again with the delusion that you are somehow “sent by God” to reveal the truth to people on Internet forums….you are here for the same reason we all are…..NOT to ram scripture down people’s throats, but to share what you believe in a humble (not bombastic) way, because if Jesus is our model, then you fail miserably to imitate him.

1 Peter 2:21-23..
”In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. 22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23 When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously.”
As I said before…take a leaf….

Jesus said we must all be “seekers”. So not everyone will arrive at the same conclusions, but those “drawn” by God will be gathered into one global brotherhood. “One flock…one shepherd”.

Peace Sister..

Who can be at peace with someone at war? You treat people as if they are all stupid and ignorant….it is not attractive but repelling.
State what you believe by all means, but leave the personal insults and large bonded type out of the discussion….it will not make people respond to you kindly. It is not ‘Christlike’ and makes you look like an arrogant and egotistical fool. Is that what you want? Talk “to” people not “at” them.

 

[Davy]

Interesting. Thanks for the post. My teacher tells me the silver cord is the spinal cord.

Well, is everyone's spinal cord physically severed when they die?

Like Jesus said in John 3, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Flesh and spirit are two different dimensions or operations. So I believe the "silver cord" is of that dimension of spirit, but is possibly connected to our fleshy spinal cord, and the "silver cord" is what is severed from our flesh when our flesh dies.