Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

[Davy]

Some like to talk about the attributes of our soul thinking they understand it, when they really do not.

Our soul is immortal until... or IF... God destroys it. That's different than claiming the soul is not immortal, isn't it?

In case you didn't know, per Lord Jesus' promise of John 11:26, that means the soul of those who believe on Him is 'deemed' immortal already. And if you don't believe that, then why did you believe on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross so that you might have eternal life through Him?

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV


Once again, many claim things about the 'soul' which God created as part of our makeup, but rarely do they consult all the facts of Bible Scripture about it. They certainly will never understand about the 'soul' from using the things of this material world to discern it. Yet that is often what they attempt.

Our 'soul' part is attached with our 'spirit' part, and is of heavenly substance, because it originates from that other dimension called the heavenly. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh body, as written. And because the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' are often used interchangeably, it simply is meant because they both are always together and refer to the person.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Our soul is immortal until... or IF... God destroys it. That's different than claiming the soul is not immortal, isn't it?

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV

Most Christians that I know view the soul as the spiritual identity of Man which, when separated from the body means that he has lost his place in the "living" world. It does not mean that the soul ceases to exist outside of the material world.

The Bible views such a state as a kind of "nakedness," having a soul in existence, yet without a body. To be removed from the material world is like Adam and Eve being cast out of the paradise of Eden. They continued to live, but now without the blessings of a cultured habitat.

One cannot be "raised from the dead" if he has ceased to have an existing soul. That would then be a "re-creation."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Some like to talk about the attributes of our soul thinking they understand it, when they really do not.

Our soul is immortal until... or IF... God destroys it. That's different than claiming the soul is not immortal, isn't it?

In case you didn't know, per Lord Jesus' promise of John 11:26, that means the soul of those who believe on Him is 'deemed' immortal already. And if you don't believe that, then why did you believe on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross so that you might have eternal life through Him?

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV


Once again, many claim things about the 'soul' which God created as part of our makeup, but rarely do they consult all the facts of Bible Scripture about it. They certainly will never understand about the 'soul' from using the things of this material world to discern it. Yet that is often what they attempt.

Our 'soul' part is attached with our 'spirit' part, and is of heavenly substance, because it originates from that other dimension called the heavenly. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh body, as written. And because the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' are often used interchangeably, it simply is meant because they both are always together and refer to the person.

I believe that when God gave Adam the command to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil lest you surely die, happened when Adam did eat of it, and the first to die was his nature, his immortal spirit and soul. not just his body, and they being Adam's nature became a sin nature. For us, it is our spirit and soul that is our nature that is reborn of the Spirit and cleansed. Our new nature partakes of the divine nature of God which is why a true Christian does not desire to murder, steal, lie or anything else that God commanded us not to do.

It is interesting that when the body dies, the spirit and soul do not die yet in an unsaved person. Everyone's conciousness either goes to be with God, or into the outer darkness until the resurrection of the dead.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Ezekiel 18:4 King
Behold, all souls are MINE; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

The word of God tells me the soul is immortal and belongs to God. He alone has the power over it. Our bodies belong to our control and must be brought under submission to God through his Spirit. These bodies can and will die but only God has the power over the soul in judgment.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Some like to talk about the attributes of our soul thinking they understand it, when they really do not.

Our soul is immortal until... or IF... God destroys it. That's different than claiming the soul is not immortal, isn't it?

If a soul is immortal, it cannot die.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that speaks of an immortal soul. You will not find those words together in any passage of scripture.
So right from the start, “some people” have no idea what the difference is between “everlasting life” and “immortality”…..they are not the same.
God was going to give the human race “everlasting life” which was conditional and dependent on obedience to the Creator. If they failed to obey him death was the penalty….so they cannot be immortal.

In case you didn't know, per Lord Jesus' promise of John 11:26, that means the soul of those who believe on Him is 'deemed' immortal already. And if you don't believe that, then why did you believe on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross so that you might have eternal life through Him?

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV

That verse is taken out of context…..read what the surrounding verses say…..this was Jesus speaking to the sister of Lazarus whom he was about to resurrect….
John 11:21-27…..
”Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

What did Jesus say to this Jewish believer in Christ as Messiah? Her brother had died, and she lamented that Jesus wasn’t here to cure him of his sickness so as to prevent his death. What was her belief about where her brother was? She said “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”….so what did she mean? Was there mention of an immortal soul that had gone somewhere else? No! She reiterated her belief in the future resurrection of the dead. (“on the last day”) But Jesus said there was no need to wait until then, as he would bring Lazarus back to life there and then.

Jesus said to her…”The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.”

When was the Jewish expectation of the resurrection of the dead to take place? It was when Messiah was to take up his kingship over the earth, that he would then bring the dead back from the grave as he said in John 5:28-29….
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

In order for Jesus to bring the dead out of their tombs, they must all still be in them. Both good and bad people are promised a resurrection. Both are called out of the same place…their graves. No one went anywhere.

The ones who are alive when Christ returns as king would have no need to die at all.

Once again, many claim things about the 'soul' which God created as part of our makeup, but rarely do they consult all the facts of Bible Scripture about it. They certainly will never understand about the 'soul' from using the things of this material world to discern it. Yet that is often what they attempt.

Our 'soul' part is attached with our 'spirit' part, and is of heavenly substance, because it originates from that other dimension called the heavenly. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh body, as written. And because the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' are often used interchangeably, it simply is meant because they both are always together and refer to the person.

It is all well and good to give an opinion on Biblical matters, but when opinion drifts off into fantasy, should we not let the Bible speak for itself?
A “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing creature, both man and animals are called “souls”. Nowhere is a soul called a disembodied spirit in scripture, nor is there a difference in the death of man and animals, since all “souls” breathe the same air and all die the same death, when breathing stops. (Eccl 3:19-20) All souls come from the dust, and all souls return there.

You attach soul and spirit like they are the same parts of the human organism…..a “soul” is not a “spirit” and a “spirit” is not a “soul”. Neither are immortal. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4) The “spirit” in man is “the breath of life” given to Adam to animate his body….all souls breathe as soon as they come into the world.

We are all at the mercy of those who teach a convenient and very ancient lie….that is, that we don’t really die…..that the soul/spirit lives on…..nowhere does the Bible say that. That was the first lie told by the devil….
”you surely will not die”….and humans still want to believe it because it takes some of the sting out of death.

Death is literally the opposite of life…..not a continuation of it somewhere else.
Let the Bible teach you, not false man-made ideas, Inspired by the devil.

 

[quietthinker]

Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...​

our eyesight receives salve.

Eyeball a rotting cadaver while juggling immortality in ones consciousness and there we have it, cognitive dissonance!.......the human ability to hold contradictory views simultaneously.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If a soul is immortal, it cannot die.

I could be wrong, but I think when it is said that a soul dies, it is not talking about the distinctions between soul and body.

Rather, the "soul" represents the spiritual entity, the person. That person *dies* when his body expires. It does not mean that the soul, as distinct from the body, dies along with the body.

There is not a single verse in the Bible that speaks of an immortal soul.

The existence of a person after death is assumed throughout the Scriptures. The "eternity" of the soul is always assumed.

The "immortality" of the body is something different, and implies, for the Christian, an eternal state of blessedness. The lost will be raised from the dead to put on eternal bodies, as well. But they are not "glorified" bodies.

These terms here can get confusing if separated from the context in which they are being used.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I could be wrong, but I think when it is said that a soul dies, it is not talking about the distinctions between soul and body.

I think that going back to Genesis is a good place to start in evaluating the immortality of the soul.
Starting with the creation accounts in Gen 1 & 2 we find that all living breathing creatures ARE souls…they were not given a soul as separate and distinct from the body.

Gen 2:7 says….”And the Lord God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.”
You see that man was not given a soul but “became” one when he started breathing.

The word in Hebrew is “nep̄eš” and it means, primarily…..

“soul, self, life, creature, person. . . .

1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual”.

So to assume that a “soul“ is immortal and can depart from the body at death, was never mentioned to Adam. He was told what death meant very simply….when he sinned…God said to him……”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
If there was some kind of afterlife of punishment then God never told him. How unfair would that have been?
Not telling him the full consequence of his disobedience….?

Rather, the "soul" represents the spiritual entity, the person. That person *dies* when his body expires. It does not mean that the soul, as distinct from the body, dies along with the body.

The soul is inextricably tied to the body….a soul cannot exist without a body. It is the breath of life that sustains that body and when breathing stops the soul dies because it is the whole person. (See Strongs definition above)

The existence of a person after death is assumed throughout the Scriptures. The "eternity" of the soul is always assumed.

The "immortality" of the body is something different, and implies, for the Christian, an eternal state of blessedness. The lost will be raised from the dead to put on eternal bodies, as well. But they are not "glorified" bodies.

Assumptions and implications can creep in when those in authority twists scripture to assert something it does not teach.
We have been indoctrinated with this immortal soul nonsense since the devil told his first lie….which formed the basis of this belief…..nothing in God’s word tells us that there is life for an immortal soul after death…..

The only way to restore life is by resurrection, which, in Jewish belief, meant a return to earthly life in the future, not a continuation of it in the present……and as Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture, he did not change what God’s word had said.
Let the scriptures speak for themselves….

There terms here can get confusing if separated from the context in which they are being used.

What is confusing is trying to marry all the terms that say we do not have an immortal soul, with those verses that people think implies it.
How many who identify as Christians, actually have a big picture about why humans were put on planet Earth in mortal flesh in the first place? What was “death” when God pronounced it as a penalty?
How would you address that question Randy Kluth? What is your big picture…..and why, if we were meant to be immortals, could we die?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If a soul is immortal, it cannot die.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that speaks of an immortal soul. You will not find those words together in any passage of scripture.
So right from the start, “some people” have no idea what the difference is between “everlasting life” and “immortality”…..they are not the same.
God was going to give the human race “everlasting life” which was conditional and dependent on obedience to the Creator. If they failed to obey him death was the penalty….so they cannot be immortal.

That verse is taken out of context…..read what the surrounding verses say…..this was Jesus speaking to the sister of Lazarus whom he was about to resurrect….
John 11:21-27…..
”Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

What did Jesus say to this Jewish believer in Christ as Messiah? Her brother had died, and she lamented that Jesus wasn’t here to cure him of his sickness so as to prevent his death. What was her belief about where her brother was? She said “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”….so what did she mean? Was there mention of an immortal soul that had gone somewhere else? No! She reiterated her belief in the future resurrection of the dead. (“on the last day”) But Jesus said there was no need to wait until then, as he would bring Lazarus back to life there and then.

Jesus said to her…”The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.”

When was the Jewish expectation of the resurrection of the dead to take place? It was when Messiah was to take up his kingship over the earth, that he would then bring the dead back from the grave as he said in John 5:28-29….
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

In order for Jesus to bring the dead out of their tombs, they must all still be in them. Both good and bad people are promised a resurrection. Both are called out of the same place…their graves. No one went anywhere.

The ones who are alive when Christ returns as king would have no need to die at all.

It is all well and good to give an opinion on Biblical matters, but when opinion drifts off into fantasy, should we not let the Bible speak for itself?
A “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing creature, both man and animals are called “souls”. Nowhere is a soul called a disembodied spirit in scripture, nor is there a difference in the death of man and animals, since all “souls” breathe the same air and all die the same death, when breathing stops. (Eccl 3:19-20) All souls come from the dust, and all souls return there.

You attach soul and spirit like they are the same parts of the human organism…..a “soul” is not a “spirit” and a “spirit” is not a “soul”. Neither are immortal. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4) The “spirit” in man is “the breath of life” given to Adam to animate his body….all souls breathe as soon as they come into the world.

We are all at the mercy of those who teach a convenient and very ancient lie….that is, that we don’t really die…..that the soul/spirit lives on…..nowhere does the Bible say that. That was the first lie told by the devil….
”you surely will not die”….and humans still want to believe it because it takes some of the sting out of death.

Death is literally the opposite of life…..not a continuation of it somewhere else.
Let the Bible teach you, not false man-made ideas, Inspired by the devil.

So instead of an immortal soul, how about His giving us eternal life?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So instead of an immortal soul, how about His giving us eternal life?

Literally, the only “eternal” Being in existence is Jehovah…..it means ‘no beginning or end’….only God has that status. Everything else had a beginning, including his firstborn son. (Col 1:15)

”Everlasting life“ is more accurate since that is what God placed before the first humans…..not “heaven or hell”, but “life or death”…..it’s really not more complicated than that….obey and live, or disobey and die….

So what is your big picture 1stCenturyLady?
Why did God make a material universe and choose one tiny planet in one small solar system, in one corner of one small galaxy among millions, to create sentient, air breathing souls? Why are we here?
What does the Bible tell us about that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think that going back to Genesis is a good place to start in evaluating the immortality of the soul.
Starting with the creation accounts in Gen 1 & 2 we find that all living breathing creatures ARE souls…they were not given a soul as separate and distinct from the body.

I agree. The person is created in a combining of 2 parts. body and spirit. When 1 part, ie the body, is removed, it is said that the soul dies.

But once the person comes into physical existence, the loss of the body part does not mean the soul dies with it. The soul dies only in the sense that its material element has been lost--not that the existence of the soul itself has been lost. This is how I understand the Bible in this regard.

If there was some kind of afterlife of punishment then God never told him. How unfair would that have been?
Not telling him the full consequence of his disobedience….?

God can do whatever He wants. What He chooses to say or not say is His domain--not mine.

The soul is inextricably tied to the body….a soul cannot exist without a body.

But you're asserting what you have yet to prove! Who said the soul is "inextricably tied to the body?" It was created with a body, yes. But we are *not* told that the soul can't exist without the body!

It is the breath of life that sustains that body and when breathing stops the soul dies because it is the whole person. (See Strongs definition above)

Strong's wouldn't be arguing this. It is a truism to say that the body requires breath to exist.

Once the body dies it can be said that the person, or "soul," has died. But this does not mean anything more than that the soul has suffered what we define as "death," namely the loss of the body. It does not necessarily mean that the soul is extinguished or ceases to exist.

The only way to restore life is by resurrection, which, in Jewish belief, meant a return to earthly life in the future, not a continuation of it in the present……and as Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture, he did not change what God’s word had said.
Let the scriptures speak for themselves….

When the Scriptures speak of "resurrection," it is assuming that a soul still lives after the loss of its body. The soul is being raised only in the sense that the body is being restored. To be restored means that the soul exists and is having something "restored" to him or her.

If a soul has really perished upon physical death, then the re-creation of his or her body is meaningless. The person would have to be re-created.

Would God create someone twice? I don't think so. Nothing in the Scriptures about that!

What is confusing is trying to marry all the terms that say we do not have an immortal soul, with those verses that people think implies it.
How many who identify as Christians, actually have a big picture about why humans were put on planet Earth in mortal flesh in the first place? What was “death” when God pronounced it as a penalty?
How would you address that question Randy Kluth? What is your big picture…..and why, if we were meant to be immortals, could we die?

I don't use the word "immortal" because it gets confused in biblical conversations where "immortality" is often associated with the "immortal body," or "glorified body."

The eternal existence of the soul is not speaking of an "immortal body." It is simply speaking of the fact a soul has no end, in whatever circumstance it finds itself, in whatever body it receives.

The big picture for me is that God gave us a body to live in a pristine, blessed environment in which we could both enjoy God, the Creator, and the bounty of the world He has given to us.

It was a curse to take away our material participation on earth. That is, it was a curse that we had to die after sinning.

But it is grace to see us restored, despite our failures in the present time. The big picture is God's grace in being willing to grant us resurrection back into our hoped-for environment, rewarded for choosing a righteous path before God.

 

[Pierac]

Ezekiel 18:4 King
Behold, all souls are MINE; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

The word of God tells me the soul is immortal and belongs to God. He alone has the power over it. Our bodies belong to our control and must be brought under submission to God through his Spirit. These bodies can and will die but only God has the power over the soul in judgment.

WOW.... How wrong can you be.....

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away their “spirit” they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches… (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus
gave up his Spirit but not His Soul... An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

But this is not the issue for me, and perhaps not for many others either. We all know that "spirit" is used as an animating breath to a human body. God gave *life* to Man by breathing into him a spiritual existence. He became a soul, adorned by a human body.

As such, the spirit giving the body life, the "spirit" became synonymous with the "soul," once the person had been created. Again, he was created a spiritual being encased in a human body. This is not Platonism--this is Hebrew Bible. Even if Platonism shares some of these concepts, that does not mean it is the origin of Hebrew beliefs in this regard.

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

The *soul* is the person created as a spirit-animated body, and as such a spirit within the body. And so, the soul becomes synonymous with the human spirit.

Since the spirit-person was made to inhabit his body, the loss of that body, ie death, indicates that the *soul has died*--not that the soul has been extinguished but that the soul has lost its bodily wrapping. That is how "death" is defined, by the soul losing its bodily covering.

That's why Paul referred to the spirit without the body as "nakedness." The soul was designed to be clothed by a body, and not die, or at least not stay dead.

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

No, Jesus' spirit existed without a body for 3 days, and resumed habitation in his *old body.* And so, he still had to ascend to his Father to obtain a new glorified body, an "immortal body," so that he could give us this same thing at the proper time.

When we die, Paul indicates our spirit goes immediately to the Father, though we, like Jesus, would remain without a body until the time we receive our new glorified bodies. To be in Hades, as Jesus was for 3 days, just indicates that his soul, though with God, was in a state of mortality and death.

That is, Jesus had not yet been raised up out of the imprisonment of mortality and death, which he was experiencing for us. When we die now, as Christians, we don't go to Hades because Jesus freed us from the imprisonment of our spirits to the chains of eternal banishment.

Though we do not yet have immortality, we do have a get out of jail free card. We have Eternal Life, and are card-carrying.

Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.

When we speak of the soul presently, we do not speak of it being "immortal." If we mean that it is eternal, well and fine. But "immortal" has a connotation that can confuse, and I don't wish to use the term.

Nobody is "immortal" yet but Jesus. That is because he received a new immortal body.

While he was on earth, his body was mortal, and he could die. In our new glorified bodies we will never again die, and we can then be properly called "immortal."

 

[Cyd]

Ezekiel 18:4 King
Behold, all souls are MINE; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

The word of God tells me the soul is immortal and belongs to God. He alone has the power over it. Our bodies belong to our control and must be brought under submission to God through his Spirit. These bodies can and will die but only God has the power over the soul in judgment.

I like this best of all I read, simple to the point, good post. Besides this I think of the commandment and Father wanting love with all of our heart, mind and soul. So to me these all have a spiritual place.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Literally, the only “eternal” Being in existence is Jehovah…..it means ‘no beginning or end’….only God has that status. Everything else had a beginning, including his firstborn son. (Col 1:15)

”Everlasting life“ is more accurate since that is what God placed before the first humans…..not “heaven or hell”, but “life or death”…..it’s really not more complicated than that….obey and live, or disobey and die….

So what is your big picture 1stCenturyLady?
Why did God make a material universe and choose one tiny planet in one small solar system, in one corner of one small galaxy among millions, to create sentient, air breathing souls? Why are we here?
What does the Bible tell us about that?

I stand corrected my sweet sister!

The big picture? Fellowship from Freewill.

I agree in the week of Creation Elohim made only this planet, the sun and moon and everything that would dwell on this earth. Before that He already made the stars and universe, and of course the angels who also had free will.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I agree. The person is created in a combining of 2 parts. body and spirit. When 1 part, ie the body, is removed, it is said that the soul dies.

Actually it is when breathing stops that the body dies. That is a separation of body and spirit (breath) rather than body and soul. The word “soul“ is synonymous with “life”. Adam “became a living soul” when God started him breathing. Adam lived for 930 years before death overtook him when the breath of life (spirit) left his body.

As the Psalmist said….
”The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.” (Psalm 115:17)

”Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.”

Eccl 9:5, 10….
”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”

Surely if there was a conscious entity that departs from the body, they would have ability to think and to know things? How is it that “the dead know nothing”….it doesn’t say that the dead body knows nothing, but “the dead”, the person who formerly lived, knows nothing.

But once the person comes into physical existence, the loss of the body part does not mean the soul dies with it.

There is no soul without “the body part”….a “soul” in scripture, is a living breathing creature, hence all the other air breathers are called “souls” but none in the animal kingdom are made in God’s image or with his moral qualities. None are promised everlasting life either. (Eccl 3:19-20) The soul is the whole creature….we don’t come in “parts”..…what you see is what you get.

The soul dies only in the sense that its material element has been lost--not that the existence of the soul itself has been lost. This is how I understand the Bible in this regard.

I’m afraid your understanding has been colored by the ancient belief in an immortal soul…it is ancient but pagan, not biblical……there is no immortal soul…the soul is you. And the “spirit” that animates you is sustained by breathing, oxygenating every cell in your body.

God can do whatever He wants. What He chooses to say or not say is His domain--not mine.

God’s sense of justice would not allow him to do anything without fair warning. He used his prophets to warn his wayward nation of Israel of his intentions many times…..and he used Noah to warn the people of his day as well. He is not a despot who enjoys punishing the wicked eternally. (Ezekiel 33:11) He has no need or desire to do so.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But you're asserting what you have yet to prove! Who said the soul is "inextricably tied to the body?" It was created with a body, yes. But we are *not* told that the soul can't exist without the body!

Unless you can find scripture that gives the word “soul” a different definition, the soul is completely mortal.
When the body dies, the soul dies with it. Those in the grave await their resurrection according to the scriptures, so how can you resurrect a person who is not dead?
When Jesus said….
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28-29)
How does Jesus call all the dead (good and bad) from their graves if they are not all still in them? When was he to do this? Not till his kingdom was established and ruling over the earth…..the general resurrection of the dead does not begin until then.

Once the body dies it can be said that the person, or "soul," has died. But this does not mean anything more than that the soul has suffered what we define as "death," namely the loss of the body. It does not necessarily mean that the soul is extinguished or ceases to exist.

For the present, that is exactly what it means…..since we were created to live forever on earth in our mortal flesh, God provided the means to make that a reality. “Everlasting life“ was not only possible, but it is what God planned for his human creatures who would take care of his creation as lovingly as he would….it is why we have his attributes and qualities so that we would love his creation as much as he does, and so we would be willing caretakers who would have complete enjoyment in the fruits of our own labors.

The humans were told to colonize the whole planet and to “subdue” the land outside their garden paradise…..it was the blueprint for the entire earth, so that the humans had productive and creative work to do, physically capable of carrying out God’s instructions.….but the abuse of free will got in the way, and we had to take a detour in order for the rebels and the rest of mankind to learn from the error of their ways…..to learn to use their free will to benefit others, not just themselves.

When the Scriptures speak of "resurrection," it is assuming that a soul still lives after the loss of its body. The soul is being raised only in the sense that the body is being restored. To be restored means that the soul exists and is having something "restored" to him or her.

That is an assumption made because you don’t want to believe that you (the soul) really dies.
It was the devil who first told that lie (“you surely will not die”) and he has been repeating it successfully ever since, in all false religion.
In order to resurrect a person, God can recreate a body and restore the personality and memories of all who have died…..the Bible says that God knows all the countless billions of stars by name…..he does not forget us.

If a soul has really perished upon physical death, then the re-creation of his or her body is meaningless. The person would have to be re-created.

Yes, and didn’t you say that God can do whatever he wishes? He can restore all that a person was.

Would God create someone twice? I don't think so. Nothing in the Scriptures about that!

Yes there is…..
Matt 19:27-30…..
”Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, [“palingenesia“] when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

That word “palingenesia” speaks about the time of renewal and of regeneration of everything, when the kingdom of God is ruling mankind with Christ on his throne. Any sacrifices made to support his Father’s Kingdom will be richly rewarded. There is also an intriguing statement at the end there….”many who are first will be last, and the last first.” What do you think Jesus meant? His following parable explains. (Matt 20:1-16)

I don't use the word "immortal" because it gets confused in biblical conversations where "immortality" is often associated with the "immortal body," or "glorified body."

The eternal existence of the soul is not speaking of an "immortal body." It is simply speaking of the fact a soul has no end, in whatever circumstance it finds itself, in whatever body it receives.

No “body” can be received until the resurrection. For the elect, a resurrection to spirit life with a spirit body is promised. These will reign with Christ in heaven….a place where mortals cannot go. These ones are resurrected “first”. (Rev 20:6) But the general resurrection of the dead takes place when God’s kingdom rules mankind.
Nowhere is the soul said to exist apart from the body.

The big picture for me is that God gave us a body to live in a pristine, blessed environment in which we could both enjoy God, the Creator, and the bounty of the world He has given to us.

Yes, planet Earth was created for us, and we for the Earth. Everything ”souls” need to live and to enjoy life on this planet is supplied in abundance. But just because rebellion took place, doesn’t mean that God abandoned his plans concerning the earth and living things upon it. (Isa 55:11) What God starts, he finishes.

It was a curse to take away our material participation on earth. That is, it was a curse that we had to die after sinning.

But it is grace to see us restored, despite our failures in the present time. The big picture is God's grace in being willing to grant us resurrection back into our hoped-for environment, rewarded for choosing a righteous path before God.

God has allowed us to participate in the most important object lesson we will ever experience. He warned the humans not to partake of the TKGE, but satan tricked the woman into taking the fruit, which was the only one in the garden that God had claimed as his own property. They knew that stealing from their Sovereign ruler was to bring death, but satan lied to gain what he wanted….the worship of lower, less powerful, but intelligent creatures who could see him as a god and do his bidding.

God never wanted his children to ever have to experience evil, but because everything in creation is perfectly balanced, the opposite of the immense good seen in the Creator, is offset by the tremendous evil that is its opposite.…it is what we see manifested in the world under satan’s control today, as we near the foretold end of this wicked world. (1 John 5:19)

I know that strongly entrenched ideas are hard to eradicate, but belief in an immortal soul is an appealing but satanic lie. There is no biblical support for it, no matter how much you want it to be true….

 

[Randy Kluth]

Actually it is when breathing stops that the body dies. That is a separation of body and spirit (breath) rather than body and soul.

I think that when the body and spirit/life are separated, the soul becomes detached from the mortal body.

Surely if there was a conscious entity that departs from the body, they would have ability to think and to know things? How is it that “the dead know nothing”….it doesn’t say that the dead body knows nothing, but “the dead”, the person who formerly lived, knows nothing.

All of your references state the obvious, that the mortal body, when it dies, ceases to operate its normal functions. A person no longer thinks or knows anything in the body--the body is wasted.

None of this means the soul, separated from the body, no longer knows or thinks anything. The soul no longer operates through the corpse, but can still operate as a spiritual entity without the body. It just has no more connection with the earth.

I’m afraid your understanding has been colored by the ancient belief in an immortal soul…it is ancient but pagan, not biblical……there is no immortal soul…the soul is you. And the “spirit” that animates you is sustained by breathing, oxygenating every cell in your body.

Again, I don't call the soul "immortal," because the definition confuses Christian and pagan concepts. The soul is eternal, in my view, but mortality concerns the physical body alone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Unless you can find scripture that gives the word “soul” a different definition, the soul is completely mortal.

As I said in my last response to you, I don't define the soul or the spirit as "mortal" or "immortal." The use of those words refer to the physical or material body, which is indeed perishable in their present form.

On the other hand, the soul or spirit of Man is eternal. We were made in the image of God. The death of our mortal or physical bodies does not mean our soul, once created, can become uncreated.

How does Jesus call all the dead (good and bad) from their graves if they are not all still in them?

Jesus does not have to have a soul reside in a corpse in order to resurrect both the corpse and the soul! I believe a believer's soul goes to be with the Lord in heaven when he or she dies. The body they had lived in turns to dust. But it can be "resurrected" when the Lord returns, so that the soul can find a new home in an immortal body.

For the present, that is exactly what it means…..since we were created to live forever on earth in our mortal flesh, God provided the means to make that a reality.

I agree we were created to live forever on earth in physical bodies, which are made "immortal" at the coming of the Lord. But I wouldn't call these new resurrected bodies "mortal flesh." That would imply that we can die all over again!

The humans were told to colonize the whole planet and to “subdue” the land outside their garden paradise…..it was the blueprint for the entire earth, so that the humans had productive and creative work to do, physically capable of carrying out God’s instructions.….but the abuse of free will got in the way, and we had to take a detour in order for the rebels and the rest of mankind to learn from the error of their ways…..to learn to use their free will to benefit others, not just themselves.

Agree.

That is an assumption made because you don’t want to believe that you (the soul) really dies.

Right--I don't believe the soul dies.

It was the devil who first told that lie (“you surely will not die”) and he has been repeating it successfully ever since, in all false religion.

Again, for a soul to die means not that the soul as a soul dies, but that it dies via the loss of its physical body. The soul dies, though the soul lives on to continue to experience this death, or the loss of its body.

In order to resurrect a person, God can recreate a body and restore the personality and memories of all who have died…..the Bible says that God knows all the countless billions of stars by name…..he does not forget us.

It's meaningless to me to have a person re-created and to have its "memories" restored to him or her. That would be like creating an android and having someone else's memories downloaded into it. It wouldn't be real.

This is why I believe the soul is eternal and lives on beyond "death," ie the loss of its physical body. The soul survives and has its body restored to it. The memories are the same, but are healed.

That word “palingenesia” speaks about the time of renewal and of regeneration of everything, when the kingdom of God is ruling mankind with Christ on his throne. Any sacrifices made to support his Father’s Kingdom will be richly rewarded. There is also an intriguing statement at the end there….”many who are first will be last, and the last first.” What do you think Jesus meant? His following parable explains. (Matt 20:1-16)

The OT Prophets spoke of the fall and ultimate restoration of Israel as a nation. They failed under their 1st covenant, but will be restored under the 2nd, Messianic Covenant. That is the "regeneration" or "palingenesia."

No “body” can be received until the resurrection. For the elect, a resurrection to spirit life with a spirit body is promised. These will reign with Christ in heaven….a place where mortals cannot go.

Mortals have been able to go to God in heaven. But yes, the ultimate goal is to have immortals with God in heaven (and also upon the earth). Physical bodies, mortal or immortal, can go to God in heaven. It is simply God's wish that people end up immortal, rather than fall like the angels, and die.

Yes, planet Earth was created for us, and we for the Earth. Everything ”souls” need to live and to enjoy life on this planet is supplied in abundance. But just because rebellion took place, doesn’t mean that God abandoned his plans concerning the earth and living things upon it. (Isa 55:11) What God starts, he finishes.

Agreed.

God has allowed us to participate in the most important object lesson we will ever experience. He warned the humans not to partake of the TKGE, but satan tricked the woman into taking the fruit, which was the only one in the garden that God had claimed as his own property. They knew that stealing from their Sovereign ruler was to bring death, but satan lied to gain what he wanted….the worship of lower, less powerful, but intelligent creatures who could see him as a god and do his bidding.

Agreed.

God never wanted his children to ever have to experience evil, but because everything in creation is perfectly balanced, the opposite of the immense good seen in the Creator, is offset by the tremendous evil that is its opposite.…it is what we see manifested in the world under satan’s control today, as we near the foretold end of this wicked world. (1 John 5:19)

Agreed.

I know that strongly entrenched ideas are hard to eradicate, but belief in an immortal soul is an appealing but satanic lie. There is no biblical support for it, no matter how much you want it to be true….

I don't believe in an "immortal soul" because souls presently have no physical characteristics apart from their bodies. As such, they are eternal and can only be determined as possessing "mortal" or "immortal" characteristics in relationship with the particular body they put on.

If they presently have a mortal body, the soul possesses a mortal body, but in itself has nothing, mortal or immortal, without the body. If they in the future obtain an immortal body, the soul will possess an immortal body, though without such a body it possesses no such characteristic.

In sum, the soul is eternal, but cannot be said to "be immortal." It can only be said to "possess" mortality or immortality when it possesses such a body with these characteristics.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The big picture? Fellowship from Freewill.

What does that mean?
I was asking about why God chose to create material beings, on a material planet, in a material universe, when he is a spirit who resides in a place that is not material? Those who reside in that place with him, are not material beings either, and he has millions of spirit "sons".

I agree in the week of Creation Elohim made only this planet, the sun and moon and everything that would dwell on this earth.

Where does the Bible say that?
In its opening statement, Genesis says simply..."In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
This is "the beginning" of his material creation....and must include the entire universe because nowhere does it say that our planet and solar system were created separately.....our earth was prepared for habitation separately. God simply chose the perfect planet, in a perfect location, to begin what may in the infinite future, become the start of colonizing many more planets.....who knows? It is a vast Universe!...and time means nothing to our infinite Creator.
We will have to wait and see, but if there were "bugs" to fix, here is where they are addressed and resolved before God can move on and complete his purpose for us here. We know in our hearts that we were never meant to live like this.

Before that He already made the stars and universe, and of course the angels who also had free will.

Before material creation came in to existence, there was a spirit realm inhabited by lifeforms specifically designed for life in that realm. Spirit beings need no life support as we know it, (water food or oxygen) so God sustains them in ways unknown to us mere mortals. We know that they have everlasting life in that realm, but they are not immortals either.....because they can have their lives taken from them, just like we can, if they disobey their Creator.

The Big Picture? Free will cannot be given to those whose lives are indestructible (which is what "immortality" means). Abuse of free will must have a penalty, otherwise, unchecked, disaster will result in the massive destruction of life and damage to the planet itself....as it already has. (Rev 11:18) Can you see the reason for God's permission of the present appalling state of affairs on earth, where the abuse of free will runs rampant, and which is completely contrary to what God's purpose was at the outset? What is the lesson?

Who hates the injustice, pain and suffering wrought by man on his fellow humans? Only those who can see past their patriotic sentiments to obey the law of the Christ. So many "Christians" have substituted one for the other, making themselves blood guilty before their Creator. (Isa 1:15) They have allowed hatred for others, usually based on race or religion or even political differences, to enter their hearts and be stirred by patriotic sentiments that kill the love we are supposed to express towards all. (Matt 5:43-44)

Unless we learn where that abuse can take us, experiencing its terrible consequences for ourselves, nothing will stop it happening again with another "satan" (resistor) who thinks more of himself than he should?
This is an object lesson that is more about the powerful creatures in God's heavenly family, since rebellion began with one of their own. They can wreak havoc in more damaging ways than mere humans can, by capturing their minds and hearts and deceiving them into opting for the kind of "freedom" that God never gave us. Humans are their pawns and those willingly manipulated by them will not survive the end that is coming.

Look where we are now and see why those who love God will be determined never to allow their minds and hearts to be corrupted like that again.....and why God will speedily pass judgment on any who contemplate going down that path again in the future. The precedents are set for all time to come, so that God's purpose for his material creation can go ahead into the infinite future unobstructed, and with the precious gift of free will preserved.