Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4

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Hidden In Him

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We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, incessantly remembering your work of faith, and labor of love, and endurance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing brothers that you have been chosen, in having been beloved by God. (1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)

Greetings in Christ Jesus! These threads are intended as interactive Bible Studies to get people thinking about verses and passages of scripture. So the questions I will ask are designed to get people thinking about what is actually being said in them. Anyone is encouraged to participate and share their thoughts, hence the title. Heated debate will be discouraged, but all avenues of thought will be welcomed and pursued. And while I have my own answers that I will share in later posts, I will do my best to keep an open mind when responding to others.

Questions:
In the above passage, Paul stated in verse four that he knew the Thessalonians had been chosen by God - the text reads literally, "knowing, brothers, your election..."

So the questions become:

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?

Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

Blessings to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Update:
My answers to Questions #1 (and #2 essentially) are provided in Post #37.
On Question #3, they are expressed (in part) in Posts #46 and #62.

Next Study:
Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:5-10
 
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Mayflower

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Different translation for comparing:

Every time we think of you, we thank God for you. Day and night you’re in our prayers as we call to mind your work of faith, your labor of love, and your patience of hope in following our Master, Jesus Christ, before God our Father. It is clear to us, friends, that God not only loves you very much but also has put his hand on you for something special. When the Message we preached came to you, it wasn’t just words. Something happened in you. The Holy Spirit put steel in your convictions. You paid careful attention to the way we lived among you, and determined to live that way yourselves. In imitating us, you imitated the Master. Although great trouble accompanied the Word, you were able to take great joy from the Holy Spirit!—taking the trouble with the joy, the joy with the trouble.
1 Thessalonians 1:2‭-‬5 MSG

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had been chosen by God?

-I believe it was because of the spiritual fruits he saw in them, that they were a people of God. I believe all of God's people are chosen
.

But you are the ones chosen by God, chosen for the high calling of priestly work, chosen to be a holy people, God’s instruments to do his work and speak out for him, to tell others of the night-and-day difference he made for you—from nothing to something, from rejected to accepted.
1 Peter 2:9‭-‬10 MSG



Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?

I guess you can never be 100% sure, but Christ just radiates from some people. I believe my Aunt Cheryl was for sure.

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

Yes, as in predestination as in being chosen by God. In Christ, we are predestined to salvation. But I believe in free will also.
 

marks

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Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?

Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

#1 . . . Paul doesn't say. We can speculate, but that's all, so far as I can see.

It may be those things Paul named, "your work of faith, and labor of love, and endurance of hope".

#2 . . . We can only draw conclusions bases on our perceptions. If God reveals something to us, we can know from that. I tend to relate to people on a "functional" basis, however it seems appropriate at the time, without necessarily "knowing" the person's true status.

#3 . . . No I don't see that. For instance, if you hold to "corporate election", Jesus is actually "The Chosen Servant" (Isaiah 42), and all who are in Christ receive the spiritual blessing of His election, we are chosen in Him.

Ephesians 1:4
"according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,"

Much love!
 

WaterSong

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For my part I believe free will and those scriptures that inform of God's predestination of all things according to his divine will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory preclude our actually having what is defined as free will.
Having said that, and as we know there are as many visions of God's plan, God's actions, God's will, and the meaning in his testament (Bible), as there are imaginations reading and responding to them.

So, let us consider for a moment a Calvinist and his understanding of free will. (Calvinism is all about predestination of God and to the extreme in fact. *note: No, I am not a Calvinist) (sic)"...A second definition of free will reflected in the language of Jesus and Paul is this: The human will is free when it is not in bondage to prefer and choose irrationally. It is free when it is liberated from preferring what is infinitely less preferable than God, and from choosing what will lead to destruction. "

[---]
"...Based on this definition, only those who are born again have free will.
This is the way Jesus saw the idea of freedom in John 8:32: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” And this is the way Paul talks about freedom in Romans 6: “Thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17–18).A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will’



The conventional/Dictionary definition: Free Will=the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

For me, one is unable to employ their own discretion in any given matter if they first accept God, as sovereign over all that he created of and from himself, has predestined/predetermined all things, as his word tells us, and according to the purpose of his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.
IMO, the two paradigms conflict within the realm of divine dominion and omniscient omnipresent omnipotence.
God predestines all things for the purpose of his will, but the individual's will has the ability to act at their own discretion. Which then necessarily precludes, again in my view, God's will being preeminent. And for that matter therein repeals all scriptures of and from God that testify of his having predestined all things according to his divine will and plan.
If Omniscient Omnipresent Omnipotent preeminent Creator predestined all things before any thing was created by his will and power, how can the created human race then supersede that planning at our own discretion?

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
 

Hidden In Him

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Different translation for comparing:

Every time we think of you, we thank God for you. Day and night you’re in our prayers as we call to mind your work of faith, your labor of love, and your patience of hope in following our Master, Jesus Christ, before God our Father. It is clear to us, friends, that God not only loves you very much but also has put his hand on you for something special. When the Message we preached came to you, it wasn’t just words. Something happened in you. The Holy Spirit put steel in your convictions. You paid careful attention to the way we lived among you, and determined to live that way yourselves. In imitating us, you imitated the Master. Although great trouble accompanied the Word, you were able to take great joy from the Holy Spirit!—taking the trouble with the joy, the joy with the trouble.
1 Thessalonians 1:2‭-‬5 MSG

:)

Ok, first of all thanks for responding. The Message Bible does indeed give a different reading here - a different sense. God having "put is hand on you" is different from the words, "knowing that you have been chosen." But now, the latter is actually a translation. The problem with paraphrases like The Message Bible is that while they are more natural-sounding to the modern ear, they can sometimes water down and/or distort the actual meaning of the text by replacing the actual wording used with something similar but more loosely communicated.

Personally, I advise people who are new converts and/or who got saved reading Paraphrases that they should appreciate such Bibles for what they are; at least a doorway into understanding the things of God. But for those who wish to go on to more serious study, I advise moving away from paraphrases, as you need to narrow your word definitions down to things that draw a more exact word for word parallel to the original text. The KJV has its flaws, but it does a decent job of using word for word equivalence, so I will usually quote from that.

Now for the rest of your response. :)
-I believe it was because of the spiritual fruits he saw in them, that they were a people of God. I believe all of God's people are chosen.

This has some reason behind it, but now, let me ask you: If you believe that all such people are chosen, do you believe some who are chosen can still fall away from the faith? The reason I am asking is because, suppose a person is bearing what appears to be good fruit for a time, but then falls into gross sin and appears to depart from the faith altogether. Was such a person still truly chosen by God but fell away, or were they never truly chosen to begin with, and it only appeared that they were?
I guess you can never be 100% sure, but Christ just radiates from some people. I believe my Aunt Cheryl was for sure.

Ok, but now, here's the thing. Paul was writing that he was absolutely sure about the Thessalonians, without a doubt. So the thought-provoker is this: How did he know they were chosen of God beyond doubt, such that he could use terminology like that?
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Nice


1. I’ve always felt that what a person should be most aware of regarding the Thessalonians, is that they had “Love” figured out. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any other group that had Love figured out as they did. They not only said that they Loved each other, but they apparently proved it. The Thessalonians were proven through their God-given ability to Love, but not as “man” loves, but as the Holy Spirit enabled and empowered them to Love. Godly Love for others proved their Holy Inheritance.

2. No. I’ve never known a single person that has demonstrated themselves to be Truly saved by God. What do I base this on? Colossians 2:9-15. When a person has had their Heart Circumcised by Christ, they’ll know it. And most certainly, when they read of this Circumcision of Christ, the Lord’s Holy Operation of Faith, they will instinctively realize that this is precisely what Christ has done for him/her. Here it is: Colossians 2:9-15 KJV – “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” – If a person’s Heart has been Purified of the Curse of Adam and Eve, these seven perfect verses above will become the single most enigmatic set of passages within the entire Bible. Colossians 2-9-15 is the “Heart” of the Bible . . . literally.

3. Predestination? Hmmm . . . I’d rather just say that all things are under the Holy Control of God. The Bible is clear that He controls all events. Nothing takes place outside of the Lord’s Control. The Bible tells us that the Lord has a Mysterious Plan, and that Plan has been written upon Heavenly Scrolls and those Scrolls are not changed by the efforts of mere humans. The story of Pharaoh in Egypt, and how the Lord controlled not only all events, but the mouth and mind of Pharaoh himself . . . this demonstrates Power and Plan. When the Lord can control every element of this physical world, including humans, rocks, and water . . . all that takes place is under the control of God. What we know for sure is that we are not in control of ourselves, having pure freewill, that is. Why? Because we are either controlled by the Devil or by the Holy Spirit (our Spiritual Father). There is no in-between. Therefore, we are all under the Holy Plan of God and that Plan cannot and will not be thwarted.

I hope that makes sense. Thanks for the chance to rattle off some ideas! :)
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi Marks! Thanks for responding. Slowly getting to my responses here, but you were one of the ones I would have tagged if this didn't get any notice right off.
#1 . . . Paul doesn't say. We can speculate, but that's all, so far as I can see.

It may be those things Paul named, "your work of faith, and labor of love, and endurance of hope".

Ok. Now here is the question: You and I can speculate, but it's obvious that Paul wasn't. He made the statement almost as a matter of fact. So I'm asking, how was he so certain when you and I cannot be today?
#3 . . . No I don't see that.

I don't either : )
 

atpollard

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Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?

[1 Corinthians 12:4-11 NASB]
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all [persons.] But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.​
 

atpollard

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Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?
Yes, but not in the traditional meaning of the term predestination. (There are other verses that teach the foreknowledge and eternal selection of God’s chosen, but this is not such a verse.)

However, it does speak of a reality that those who are “beloved of God” are not merely passing the time waiting until they can go to Heaven. To be “chosen” implies that one has been chosen FOR SOMETHING. That something is the destiny that awaits, and because God is the chooser of the chosen and “works all things after the council of His will” (Ephesians 1:11), the destiny is assured ... making it a form of predestination.

The predestination described in 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4 is best described by Ephesians 2:10 ... “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
 
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Mayflower

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:)

Ok, first of all thanks for responding. The Message Bible does indeed give a different reading here - a different sense. God having "put is hand on you" is different from the words, "knowing that you have been chosen." But now, the latter is actually a translation. The problem with paraphrases like The Message Bible is that while they are more natural-sounding to the modern ear, they can sometimes water down and/or distort the actual meaning of the text by replacing the actual wording used with something similar but more loosely communicated.

Personally, I advise people who are new converts and/or who got saved reading Paraphrases that they should appreciate such Bibles for what they are; at least a doorway into understanding the things of God. But for those who wish to go on to more serious study, I advise moving away from paraphrases, as you need to narrow your word definitions down to things that draw a more exact word for word parallel to the original text. The KJV has its flaws, but it does a decent job of using word for word equivalence, so I will usually quote from that.

Now for the rest of your response. :)


This has some reason behind it, but now, let me ask you: If you believe that all such people are chosen, do you believe some who are chosen can still fall away from the faith? The reason I am asking is because, suppose a person is bearing what appears to be good fruit for a time, but then falls into gross sin and appears to depart from the faith altogether. Was such a person still truly chosen by God but fell away, or were they never truly chosen to begin with, and it only appeared that they were?


Ok, but now, here's the thing. Paul was writing that he was absolutely sure about the Thessalonians, without a doubt. So the thought-provoker is this: How did he know they were chosen of God beyond doubt, such that he could use terminology like that?

As far as the Message goes, Ive been reading this lately, because it has really sparked my desire and excitement about God's Word again. And with the kids, it is easier for a child to understand when I read to them. Even so, when I go back to a study Bible, NASB is still my favorite Word for Word. KJV is a solid Bible though. I like to compare a number of versions myself though, much more then reading commentaries. Repetition causes revelation.

So as far as...

"Was such a person still truly chosen by God but fell away, or were they never truly chosen to begin with, and it only appeared that they were?"

I would say repentance and humility is what is going to determine how God uses someone for His purpose for less or greater means. If you are saved though, you are Chosen according to God's Word. I am honestly not 100% sure about people walking away from the faith, if salvation can be lost or what. I would like to think that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for a dumb chosen one who decides they don't want to live with Daddy anymore for a period in their life. I don't want to find out. Just cling to Jesus.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
John 10:27‭-‬28 NASB1995

So trusting in Christ for our salvation, the enemy can't snatch us up if we have a certain struggle. How we work in overcoming sin though and following the Great Commission is how God will use us in our Chosen state.

So the Thessalonians must have done pretty darn good for Paul to say that.
 

Mayflower

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The word of knowledge sounds good too. It is a gift I can see Paul having.
 

Hidden In Him

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For my part I believe free will and those scriptures that inform of God's predestination of all things according to his divine will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory preclude our actually having what is defined as free will.
Having said that, and as we know there are as many visions of God's plan, God's actions, God's will, and the meaning in his testament (Bible), as there are imaginations reading and responding to them.

So, let us consider for a moment a Calvinist and his understanding of free will. (Calvinism is all about predestination of God and to the extreme in fact. *note: No, I am not a Calvinist) (sic)"...A second definition of free will reflected in the language of Jesus and Paul is this: The human will is free when it is not in bondage to prefer and choose irrationally. It is free when it is liberated from preferring what is infinitely less preferable than God, and from choosing what will lead to destruction. "

[---]
"...Based on this definition, only those who are born again have free will.


Ok, I'm going to have to admit that this a fairly tough concept for me to wrap my head around. I personally believe that in His Omniscience He knew what men would do and planned accordingly that all things might work together for good to those who love Him. But at what exact points in history one is to believe that the will of God was set in stone and at what points was it more open to the will of man is the question.

Let's keep things close to the cuff. The question was about the Thessalonians - In what sense were they chosen by God. It says in Acts that the Spirit specifically redirected Paul to travel to Thessalonica when he was planning on going to evangelize somewhere else, so they were clearly chosen in that sense to hear the gospel over others first. But what in your opinion did God base that decision on? Was there anything in particular that can be pointed to as the REASON why He wanted the gospel preached to them first? I have an answer, but I'd like to know what yours might be.

God bless, and thanks for the thoughtful response : )
 

Hidden In Him

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1. I’ve always felt that what a person should be most aware of regarding the Thessalonians, is that they had “Love” figured out. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any other group that had Love figured out as they did. They not only said that they Loved each other, but they apparently proved it. The Thessalonians were proven through their God-given ability to Love, but not as “man” loves, but as the Holy Spirit enabled and empowered them to Love. Godly Love for others proved their Holy Inheritance.

Greetings 2TG, and thanks for responding. If you like these types of discussions I will tag you regularly.

About this first response, my question here is (and I like the answer by they way. They very clearly did have love figured out, as you say): Do you believe that Christians can be truly saved one minute and not the next? That they can lose their salvation. The follow up question becomes, if they can, how can such people be said to have been chosen of God? What constitutes being "chosen" as Paul was referring to it?
2. No. I’ve never known a single person that has demonstrated themselves to be Truly saved by God. What do I base this on? Colossians 2:9-15. When a person has had their Heart Circumcised by Christ, they’ll know it. And most certainly, when they read of this Circumcision of Christ, the Lord’s Holy Operation of Faith, they will instinctively realize that this is precisely what Christ has done for him/her. Here it is: Colossians 2:9-15 KJV – “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” – If a person’s Heart has been Purified of the Curse of Adam and Eve, these seven perfect verses above will become the single most enigmatic set of passages within the entire Bible. Colossians 2-9-15 is the “Heart” of the Bible . . . literally.

Ok. That's a bit confusing. Maybe you can clarify for me. Are you saying you have never met anyone you could personally say with absolute certainty was saved? If so, the question is, how was Paul absolutely certain about the Thessalonians? If your answer is that they had love down, do you believe you haven't seen such evidence in anyone yourself.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding anything you are saying; just trying to get a better handle on your thoughts : )
3. Predestination? Hmmm . . . I’d rather just say that all things are under the Holy Control of God. The Bible is clear that He controls all events. Nothing takes place outside of the Lord’s Control. The Bible tells us that the Lord has a Mysterious Plan, and that Plan has been written upon Heavenly Scrolls and those Scrolls are not changed by the efforts of mere humans. The story of Pharaoh in Egypt, and how the Lord controlled not only all events, but the mouth and mind of Pharaoh himself . . . this demonstrates Power and Plan. When the Lord can control every element of this physical world, including humans, rocks, and water . . . all that takes place is under the control of God.

This first part sounds very much like what I believe.
What we know for sure is that we are not in control of ourselves, having pure freewill, that is. Why? Because we are either controlled by the Devil or by the Holy Spirit (our Spiritual Father). There is no in-between. Therefore, we are all under the Holy Plan of God and that Plan cannot and will not be thwarted.

This second part sounds more akin to what @WaterSong believes. My personal take is that we submit ourselves to either the will of demons or the will of God, but that decision nevertheless rests in our own hands, much like the man with the bad angel on one shoulder and the good angel on the other (which was actually a concept based off an ancient pseudepigraphal text, btw).

Thanks for the thoughtful response!
 

Hidden In Him

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[1 Corinthians 12:4-11 NASB]
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all [persons.] But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Greetings, at pollard!

I believe I know what you may be hinting at here, but I want you to spell it out for me in better detail. How did Paul know they were chosen in light of 1 Corinthians 12:4-11? :)
No. I have a strong hunch about some and some personal doubts about others, but ultimately ... “They are not my servant.” (Romans 14:4)

Ok, now for me this verse would certainly apply when it comes to judging others, i.e. in the negative sense of passing sentence upon them over their actions. But again (as I've been asking the others), how did Paul know enough to unequivocally state that the Thessalonians had without question been "chosen by God"?
However, it does speak of a reality that those who are “beloved of God” are not merely passing the time waiting until they can go to Heaven. To be “chosen” implies that one has been chosen FOR SOMETHING. That something is the destiny that awaits, and because God is the chooser of the chosen and “works all things after the council of His will” (Ephesians 1:11), the destiny is assured ... making is a form of predestination.

The predestination described in 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4 is best described by Ephesians 2:10 ... “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I like this as well. But now once again, how did Paul know that they had been chosen of God for good works? Your answers so far are the closest to what mine would be.
 

Hidden In Him

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"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
John 10:27‭-‬28 NASB1995

Let me present an alternative interpretation to this verse, in case it resonates with you. I believe He was saying, "I give them eternal life, and because I give them eternal life no one will snatch them out of My Hand." Or in other words, once they are in Heaven, no one will be able to take them away from Me, and once in Heaven they will never perish."

That's the interpretation from someone who is staunchly free will : )
The word of knowledge sounds good too. It is a gift I can see Paul having.

Ok, this is a curious response, and something I was wondering if anyone would present; that by divine revelation the apostle Paul knew that they had been chosen and would remain in Christ until death.

I suppose it is possible, only I don't really see precedent for it in scripture or in history. I think those who will remain faithful shouldn't be told they will or they might be tempted to become lax, and those who will NOT remain faithful would only become that much more despondent towards God about it. They might as well find out on their own, be because telling them they won't make it won't serve any constructive purpose.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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In the above passage, Paul stated in verse four that he knew the Thessalonians had been chosen by God - the text reads literally, "knowing, brothers, your election..."

So the questions become:

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?

“How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?” how did Paul “trust” they in Corinthians would know they were not reprobates (as those who fail)?
2 Corinthians 13:6 Lexicon: But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

although they appeared as reprobates (as those who fail)
2 Corinthians 13:7 Lexicon: Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved.


John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

What was given that Paul saw in them (manifest)through prayers “a work of faith, labor or love, an endurance of hope” ...
seems Paul knew because of and FOR Him who is faithful in “he will give it to you” “that ye should go and bring forth fruit,” and “herein is My Father Glorified”. Who was able to show them they were not reprobates (as those who fail) even though they might appear as such? That is who Paul trusted ...Him who does the bringing to the Light. When Paul said he trusted they would see and know they were not reprobates(as those who fail, as one who beats against the wind in vain)and come to nothing) even though they appeared as reprobates (as those who fail) ...was it them Paul trusted or HIM who Paul trusted would deliver what was promised?


We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, incessantly remembering your work of faith, and labor of love, and endurance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing brothers that you have been chosen, in having been beloved by God. (1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)

“knowing brothers that you have been chosen” 2 Corinthians 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
Works “helping together” is “the gift bestowed” by means of “many persons thanks” “given by many” ...2 Corinthians 9:11-13 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. [12] For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; [13] Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men ;

2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.


Just an opinion but how did Paul know with the Thessalonians or the Corinthians? “that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

“Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many...” 1 Thessalonians 5:24-25 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. [25] Brethren, pray for us.
 

Mayflower

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Let me present an alternative interpretation to this verse, in case it resonates with you. I believe He was saying, "I give them eternal life, and because I give them eternal life no one will snatch them out of My Hand." Or in other words, once they are in Heaven, no one will be able to take them away from Me, and once in Heaven they will never perish."

That's the interpretation from someone who is staunchly free will : )


Ok, this is a curious response, and something I was wondering if anyone would present; that by divine revelation the apostle Paul knew that they had been chosen and would remain in Christ until death.

I suppose it is possible, only I don't really see precedent for it in scripture or in history. I think those who will remain faithful shouldn't be told they will or they might be tempted to become lax, and those who will NOT remain faithful would only become that much more despondent towards God about it. They might as well find out on their own, be because telling them they won't make it won't serve any constructive purpose.

The message to repent is important regardless...but yeh. I see that verse that way also. I agree with Watersong, that our free will comes more after we are saved. (Since you can't repent before salvation).
 

keithr

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Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?
I wrote this article about 8 years ago (based on a seminar by Chuck Missler), which I think answers that question:

Christ’s Inheritance

As Christians we are truly greatly blessed by God! We are not blessed because we are more deserving than others nor because of anything we have done. God’s blessings are free gifts from our loving creator. It is God that chooses who is to become a member of the body of Christ (“chosen by the grace of God. But if it is by grace, then it does not rest on deeds, or grace would cease to be grace” – Rom 11:5-6). We did not choose to become a Christian of our own volition; it was God that called us. We are all born with a sinful nature and the Bible says that no sinner seeks God - “There is no one righteous; no, not one; no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Rom 3:10-11) - so we only become Christians because God reaches out to us. Jesus said “No one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father who sent me” (John 6:44), and “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never turn away” (John 6:37). “For it is by grace you are saved through faith; it is not your own doing. It is God’s gift, not a reward for work done. There is nothing for anyone to boast of; we are God’s handiwork” (Eph 2:8-9).

God calls us to salvation through our hearing or reading the gospel: “God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. It was for this that he called you through the gospel we brought, so that you might come to possess the splendour of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2Th 2:13-14). We know we are called by our response to the gospel – “My dear friends, beloved by God, we are certain that he has chosen you, because when we brought you the gospel we did not bring it in mere words but in the power of the Holy Spirit and with strong conviction. You know what we were like for your sake when we were with you. You, in turn, followed the example set by us and the Lord; the welcome you gave the message meant grave suffering for you, yet you rejoiced in the Holy Spirit; and so you have become a model for all believers in Macedonia and Achaia” (1Th 1:4-7). Those that hear the gospel (which means ‘good news’) and believe it have been chosen: “And in Christ you also – once you had heard the message of the truth, the good news of your salvation, and had believed it – in him you were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit” (Eph 1:13). We were sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed the gospel – it’s a completed transaction, our salvation is assured!

Having accepted God’s calling, we have been begotten as new creatures in Christ. God’s purpose for us will be realised after we have been born again as new creatures and will be with Jesus in heaven: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1Pe 1:3, AV). “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2Co 5:17, AV). “Dear friends, we are now God’s children; what we shall be has not yet been disclosed, but we know that when Christ appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

Even before God created man he chose us to become members of his family: “Before the foundation of the world he chose us in Christ to be his people, to be without blemish in his sight, to be full of love; and he predestined us to be adopted as his children through Jesus Christ. This was his will and pleasure in order that the glory of his gracious gift, so graciously conferred on us in his Beloved, might redound to his praise” (Eph 1:4-6). This predestination is God’s guarantee – Jesus said, “My own sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my care” (John 10:27-28) and the apostle Paul said, “For I am convinced that there is nothing in death or life, in the realms of spirits or superhuman powers, in the world as it is or the world as it shall be, in the forces of the universe, in heights or depths – nothing in all creation that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8:38-39).

In Israel boys were no better off than servants until they came of age, only then they were adopted as sons. Only at that point did they have the freedom, rights and privileges of a son and could inherit their father’s property. This is what the Bible is referring to when it says that we become adopted as sons of God. Having become adopted sons of God, our obedience is not the forced obedience of servants, but the loving obedience of sons, and we have an inheritance in Christ: “so long as the heir is a minor, he is no better off than a slave, even though the whole estate is his; he is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by his father. So it was with us: during our minority we were slaves, subject to the elemental spirits of the universe, but when the appointed time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to buy freedom for those who were under the law, in order that we might attain the status of sons. To prove that you are sons, God has sent into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, crying ‘Abba, Father!’ You are therefore no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, an heir by God’s own act” (Gal 4:1-7), “fellow-heirs with Christ” (Rom 8:17).

Although Paul talks of us as having been adopted (for it is a done deal), nevertheless we are not actually adopted until our resurrection as new spirit creatures: “we also, to whom the Spirit is given as the firstfruits of the harvest to come, are groaning inwardly while we look forward eagerly to our adoption, our liberation from mortality. It was with this hope that we were saved.” (Rom 8:23-24). When we are born again (in the resurrection) we will receive the spiritual nature of a son of God, then we are adopted as sons and we will receive the position, status and rights of a son of God. Once again, it is all God’s work in us: “For those whom God knew before ever they were, he also ordained to share the likeness of his Son, so that he might be the eldest among a large family of brothers; and those whom he foreordained, he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:29-30).

As Christians we can have a share in Christ’s inheritance. However, although our eternal life is assured, note that we can lose our share in that inheritance. Paul said (comparing to training for an athletic race), “I do not spare my body, but bring it under strict control, for fear that after preaching to others I should find myself disqualified” - or not fit enough to win the prize (1 Cor 9:27).

We know that our inheritance will include a perfect immortal spirit body, a perfect righteous, loving character and a share in Jesus’ kingdom rule, but it will be more than we can imagine. “No eye hath seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those that love him” (1 Cor 2:9, NIV).

Jesus has an additional inheritance - the Church. We are part of God’s gift to his son Jesus (John 17:24). That should make us try hard to be as perfect, righteous and loving as we can be.

[Scripture quotations are from the REB (Revised English Bible) unless otherwise stated.]
 
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2nd Timothy Group

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Thanks for the thoughtful response!

Part 1 - Sorry!!

“Do you believe that Christians can be truly saved one minute and not the next?”


No, I don’t believe that. To be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost . . . this is not a concept that comes from the Bible. Based upon the Doctrine of Election, which is Exodus 33:19, the Lord has no need for games to play when it comes to Salvation. God places His Grace and Mercy upon us so that we might be saved. God places new Hearts and Spirit within His True Children [so that] they will obey. If we are caused to obey by the Lord Himself, what then, can we say about ourselves if we do not obey? It means that the Lord has not caused us to obey.


Ezekiel 11:19-20 NIV – “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.”


The above passage is a fairly common theme throughout the entire Bible; in fact, I would say that it is the reason and purpose for the entire Bible to be written. If God does not give us new Hearts and Spirits, there is no reason for Christ to die on the Cross. To receive a Circumcised Heart, the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and to have our debt paid by Christ . . . these are the guaranteeing Works of Christ that allow for assured Salvation. And if Salvation is assured, then it surely cannot be lost.


“Are you saying you have never met anyone you could personally say with absolute certainty was saved?”


That is precisely what I am saying. However, I would say that this is more of misfortune than anything else. I have been surrounded by horrific family and friends throughout my life. I’m not complaining, but just stating the facts, which is this: I have lost virtually all former friends and family from my past. The only person of my past that I am in contact with, is the “old” girlfriend who co-experienced my Indwelling. I have no family. Not one, though they seem to all be alive and healthy. None of them care about the struggles I have endured, and in fact, if I bring them up, they become angry . . . hence, I am 100% alone in this world. So . . . no. I have not met one person who has been gifted the Love that only comes from Christ.


“My personal take is that we submit ourselves to either the will of demons or the will of God, but that decision nevertheless rests in our own hands, much like the man with the bad angel on one shoulder and the good angel on the other . . .”


One of the things that I have done as I have studied the Bible (and collected verses in an Excel database) is to collect every passage where the Lord takes responsibility (about 270 unique places in the Bible so far). What I have found is that God is responsible for virtually everything that happens on the planet. Yes, the way man wrote about God, and the way that the Lord caused his men and women to write about Him, some of these writings may make it appear that we have certain control over this world, but in hindsight, we Truly do not. What is the effect of prayer, then? This is a deep mystery, for sure. If all events are under the control and Power of God, how then, can our prayer be effective in His decisions? What makes sense to me is that by the leading of the Holy Spirit, all things will be worked out for the good of those who Love Him. If things being “worked out” are orchestrated by the Lord’s Holy Spirit, what then, can my involvement lead to? The Bible speaks of people being compelled to give, and prayer is no different. We pray because we are compelled to pray.


I would recommend that all who plan to read the entire Bible again, keep track of how often the Lord controls a person’s thoughts . . . their minds. God was in such obvious control (in the Old Testament), he could change the way kings thought by simply controlling the elements; the weather, for example. Consider these things as well: What is a hardened heart all about? Why did the Lord place Israel into an extra “deep sleep”? Why did the Lord control the Mind of Pharaoh? And the mind of Nebuchadnezzar? And the mind of king Saul, who first started out with a Spirit of the Lord upon him, only to die with an Evil Spirit, also of which was sent by God? Consider the difference in the way king Saul thought both before and after his exchange of Spirit. He went from thinking and behaving like a good, normal person . . . perhaps even a person that our God appreciated. However, his thinking and behavior clearly changed, as though a crazed animal on the hunt for the Father of Christ . . . the future king David. These two different thinking patterns . . . which of them was from Saul himself? Which Saul was he? I would say neither. In fact, I would say that neither sets of behavior were from Saul, but they were first from a loving Spirit who caused Saul to be good. The second Spirit, however, caused Saul to seek blatant murder without cause. David Loved king Saul and refused to hurt him even when given the chance. Yet, Saul sought murder. Was Saul really the author of those thoughts? Of course not. Paul tells us, clearly, what the problem is . . . it is the Sinful Nature.
 
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