Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4

[2nd Timothy Group]

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

Part 2 - Super sorry!!!

Romans 7:17, 20 NIV – “As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ... 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.”


Paul is basically saying that anyone who doesn’t turn to Christ for the removal of the Sinful Nature, which is the Work of Christ, they will remain in the Original Matrix. The reason why we do the things we do not want to do . . . is because we are not actually in control of ourselves. We are literally ourself, but at the helm of our thinking, and while it feels that we are at the helm, is Satan directing the flow of our sinful lives. The Truth is . . . we wouldn’t live the way we live if Satan weren’t ACTUALLY at the helm. If a person remains under the Curse of Adam and Eve, they will remain in sin, for it is the very Curse that allows, if not promotes, sin itself. Until this Nature is removed . . . the lifting of the Curse, which is the Holy Work of Christ, it is 100% impossible for a person to discontinue their ways of . . . “the things I do not want to do, I continue to do them. And the things that I want to do, I cannot do them.”


Ok, so people without Circumcised Hearts are unable to obey, for they are controlled by the Mind of the Devil. Easy to understand. But what are the True Promises really all about? Physical land? No. The Promises are about what it takes to be qualified for Eternal Life and to Inherit the True Land of Milk and Honey . . . the Holy Land that the Bible has always been pointing to. To Inherit this Holy Land, one must be purified of the Sinful Nature, which is clearly described in Colossians 2:9-15 (the most important Seven Perfect verses in the entire Bible). Once Purified of that Evil Way, it is replaced with the Divine Nature. And what does this Divine Nature do? It causes us to think in an entirely New Way.


2 Peter 1:4 NIV – “Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.” – Escaping the corruption of the world can only happen if Jesus lifts that Curse, the Sinful Nature itself, and replaces it with the radical Blessing of a Circumcised Heart. Circumcision is simply the lifting of the Curse . . . that’s it. That is one of the elements of the work of Christ, and the other two primary Works of Christ, are to pay the Debt for our sin, and to also send the Gift of the Holy Spirit, of whom grants many Gifts by and through His own accord and measure. Of course, when being spared of the Curse of Adam and Eve, and now being granted the Gift of the Divine Nature, a whole new way of thinking begins . . . and it [will] begin because when this happens to a person, they, at that moment, are under the Control of the Holy Spirit.


Romans 8:9 NLT – “But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)”


I hope that you’re not offended by the NLT translation above, but it speaks of the Purpose of the Bible so clearly. If we are either controlled by the Devil or by the Spirit . . . where is the room for a person to be in control of themselves?


I hate to say it, kids . . . but we’re like animals in a maze and the only way out is by dying. The question is, do we Trust that Jesus is the master of life and death? Will we trust Him to protect us through this death? Will we trust Him with our bodies today, believing that we will be raised from the dead and brought into an Eternal Inheritance that does not fade or perish? To the sinful people of this world . . . yes, you are having one great time! But that path of sexual consumption and overdose is a path that while it may feel good today, it leads to death. But for those who have been awakened, and realize that we are to avoid these incredibly delicious temptations of today, what we will be given is so far beyond any earthly pleasure. Do we trust this? Do we believe this? Can we finally get ourselves together and begin to obey? Can we begin to finally, for the first time . . . really start to obey?


Freedom in this world can only happen if we are lifted of the Curse that causes confusion, chaos, and hardship. We must turn to Jesus for His Holy Operation, the Circumcision of Jesus Christ.


Colossians 2:11-15 NLT – “When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.”


If any of you have not experienced the Circumcision of Christ, I beg of you to ask your Powerful God about this. Ask your Powerful God why it is that no one in your church ever, EVER talks about Circumcision. Ask the Lord why it is, that Colossians 2:9-15 have been kept hidden from us all. Ask God . . . He will tell you of all the reasons if you are persistent in this incredible Mystery.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Different translation for comparing:

Every time we think of you, we thank God for you. Day and night you’re in our prayers as we call to mind your work of faith, your labor of love, and your patience of hope in following our Master, Jesus Christ, before God our Father. It is clear to us, friends, that God not only loves you very much but also has put his hand on you for something special. When the Message we preached came to you, it wasn’t just words. Something happened in you. The Holy Spirit put steel in your convictions. You paid careful attention to the way we lived among you, and determined to live that way yourselves. In imitating us, you imitated the Master. Although great trouble accompanied the Word, you were able to take great joy from the Holy Spirit!—taking the trouble with the joy, the joy with the trouble.
1 Thessalonians 1:2‭-‬5 MSG

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had been chosen by God?

-I believe it was because of the spiritual fruits he saw in them, that they were a people of God. I believe all of God's people are chosen.

But you are the ones chosen by God, chosen for the high calling of priestly work, chosen to be a holy people, God’s instruments to do his work and speak out for him, to tell others of the night-and-day difference he made for you—from nothing to something, from rejected to accepted.
1 Peter 2:9‭-‬10 MSG


Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?

I guess you can never be 100% sure, but Christ just radiates from some people. I believe my Aunt Cheryl was for sure.

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

Yes, as in predestination as in being chosen by God. In Christ, we are predestined to salvation. But I believe in free will also.

Hi Mayflower:

Teh Message is not a translation, but a paraphrase and one that equals the NWT in its hideousness. I exhort you to lay that work down and go to more reputable real translations. Paraphrases are weak at best and this one is filled with glaring errors.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, incessantly remembering your work of faith, and labor of love, and endurance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing brothers that you have been chosen, in having been beloved by God. (1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)

Greetings in Christ Jesus! These threads are intended as interactive Bible Studies to get people thinking about verses and passages of scripture. So the questions I will ask are designed to get people thinking about what is actually being said in them. Anyone is encouraged to participate and share their thoughts, hence the title. Heated debate will be discouraged, but all avenues of thought will be welcomed and pursued. And while I have my own answers that I will share in later posts, I will do my best to keep an open mind when responding to others.

Questions:
In the above passage, Paul stated in verse four that he knew the Thessalonians had been chosen by God - the text reads literally, "knowing, brothers, your election..."

So the questions become:

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?

Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

Blessings to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Hi Hidden:

to answer yoru questions as briefly as possible,

1. Because He was taught by Jesus Himself that believers are chosen by God.

2. Everyone who is a Christisn is chosen by god.

3. Yes for all believers are predestined. Pre destine is "pro-orizo" which means to mark out in advance.

Paul in Ephesians one made that clear:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Hidden In Him]

Part 1 - Sorry!!

“Do you believe that Christians can be truly saved one minute and not the next?”


No, I don’t believe that. To be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost . . . this is not a concept that comes from the Bible. Based upon the Doctrine of Election, which is Exodus 33:19, the Lord has no need for games to play when it comes to Salvation. God places His Grace and Mercy upon us so that we might be saved. God places new Hearts and Spirit within His True Children [so that] they will obey. If we are caused to obey by the Lord Himself, what then, can we say about ourselves if we do not obey? It means that the Lord has not caused us to obey.


Ezekiel 11:19-20 NIV – “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.”


The above passage is a fairly common theme throughout the entire Bible; in fact, I would say that it is the reason and purpose for the entire Bible to be written. If God does not give us new Hearts and Spirits, there is no reason for Christ to die on the Cross. To receive a Circumcised Heart, the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and to have our debt paid by Christ . . . these are the guaranteeing Works of Christ that allow for assured Salvation. And if Salvation is assured, then it surely cannot be lost.

Forgive me if my wording was confusing. I was actually just asking if you believe a person can lose their salvation, but it sounds like your answer is no.

“Are you saying you have never met anyone you could personally say with absolute certainty was saved?”

That is precisely what I am saying. However, I would say that this is more of misfortune than anything else. I have been surrounded by horrific family and friends throughout my life. I’m not complaining, but just stating the facts, which is this: I have lost virtually all former friends and family from my past. The only person of my past that I am in contact with, is the “old” girlfriend who co-experienced my Indwelling. I have no family. Not one, though they seem to all be alive and healthy. None of them care about the struggles I have endured, and in fact, if I bring them up, they become angry . . . hence, I am 100% alone in this world. So . . . no. I have not met one person who has been gifted the Love that only comes from Christ.

Goodness... I'm truly sorry to hear that. Congratulations, then, on staying faithful to the Lord. Your faithfulness in the midst of living such a life will not go unrewarded, and should we ever get crosswise of each other on doctrinal matters, please remember that while my memory isn't always what it should be, I admire your character and trust in God, despite what you've been through in life.

The reason I asked this question is because I am trying to get people to think. So let me ask again: While you cannot be certain of others' having been chosen today (a common claim), what do you think enabled Paul to be certain about the Thessalonians having been chosen?

I would recommend that all who plan to read the entire Bible again, keep track of how often the Lord controls a person’s thoughts . . . their minds. God was in such obvious control (in the Old Testament), he could change the way kings thought by simply controlling the elements; the weather, for example. Consider these things as well: What is a hardened heart all about? Why did the Lord place Israel into an extra “deep sleep”? Why did the Lord control the Mind of Pharaoh? And the mind of Nebuchadnezzar? And the mind of king Saul, who first started out with a Spirit of the Lord upon him, only to die with an Evil Spirit, also of which was sent by God? Consider the difference in the way king Saul thought both before and after his exchange of Spirit. He went from thinking and behaving like a good, normal person . . . perhaps even a person that our God appreciated. However, his thinking and behavior clearly changed, as though a crazed animal on the hunt for the Father of Christ . . . the future king David. These two different thinking patterns . . . which of them was from Saul himself? Which Saul was he? I would say neither. In fact, I would say that neither sets of behavior were from Saul, but they were first from a loving Spirit who caused Saul to be good. The second Spirit, however, caused Saul to seek blatant murder without cause. David Loved king Saul and refused to hurt him even when given the chance. Yet, Saul sought murder. Was Saul really the author of those thoughts? Of course not. Paul tells us, clearly, what the problem is . . . it is the Sinful Nature.

My personal opinion is that control is a bit too strong of a word. I consider influence to be the better term. But we would have to visit individual texts in order to work through it if you wanted to.

Thanks again for the responses, and God bless!

 

[Hidden In Him]

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Thanks for the response. Since you quoted a verse of scripture, let's deal with that! It's always preferred in my book.

The full passage reads:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

Now, here is how I interpret what Paul meant by "predestined." He defines it in the very next phrase by stating, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." The verse is saying what He predestined us FOR, rather than TO; from the foundation of the world He foreplanned things so that when the gospel was finally preached, the result would be that we became holy and blameless before Him in love, having been adopted as sons into His family through faith in Christ Jesus and the outpouring of the Spirit. In other words, the plan for how we would be saved was predestined, but we ourselves were not.

What is your take on the above interpretation of the passage?

God bless, and thanks again for the response.

 

[marks]

Let me present an alternative interpretation to this verse, in case it resonates with you. I believe He was saying, "I give them eternal life, and because I give them eternal life no one will snatch them out of My Hand." Or in other words, once they are in Heaven, no one will be able to take them away from Me, and once in Heaven they will never perish."

That's the interpretation from someone who is staunchly free will : )

That reminds me . . .

IF it was Paul himself who had gone to the third heaven, something Paul himself denies, mind you, but IF it were him, he may have seen them there. And so he would know their election.

That was a stray thought from years ago. But like I said, Paul himself says it wasn't him, albeit tacitly.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

IF it was Paul himself who had gone to the third heaven, something Paul himself denies, mind you, but IF it were him, he may have seen them there. And so he would know their election.

Hmmm.. are you saying he went (presumably) to 3rd Heaven at a later time, and saw them there after they died? ... Not sure I follow you.

 

[marks]

Hmmm.. are you saying he went (presumably) to 3rd Heaven at a later time, and saw them there after they died? ... Not sure I follow you.

No, I'm saying that if it is true what some people say, that it was Paul himself he was writing about, "I know a man, whether in the body or out I don't know . . ." if this was really about himself, then the possibility would exist to me that Paul's certainty could be that he had seen the church in heaven.

Of course, the way I approach the Bible, the first thing I point to is that Paul himself said that it wasn't him, so, I have to go with that.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, I'm saying that if it is true what some people say, that it was Paul himself he was writing about, "I know a man, whether in the body or out I don't know . . ." if this was really about himself, then the possibility would exist to me that Paul's certainty could be that he had seen the church in heaven.

He saw the Thessalonians, like in the Spirit? Or like through God's eyes?

 

[WaterSong]

Ok, I'm going to have to admit that this a fairly tough concept for me to wrap my head around. I personally believe that in His Omniscience He knew what men would do and planned accordingly that all things might work together for good to those who love Him. But at what exact points in history one is to believe that the will of God was set in stone and at what points was it more open to the will of man is the question.

Let's keep things close to the cuff. The question was about the Thessalonians - In what sense were they chosen by God. It says in Acts that the Spirit specifically redirected Paul to travel to Thessalonica when he was planning on going to evangelize somewhere else, so they were clearly chosen in that sense to hear the gospel over others first. But what in your opinion did God base that decision on? Was there anything in particular that can be pointed to as the REASON why He wanted the gospel preached to them first? I have an answer, but I'd like to know what yours might be.

God bless, and thanks for the thoughtful response : )

Of course. Thanks for asking.
Isn't it Acts 21 where we're told Paul had a custom, even though we're led to believe he said he was sent to bring the gospel to the gentiles, to also take the gospel to Synagogues in regions he was near and particularly on Sabbath day?
Maybe that was why he was diverted to Thessalonica before entering into the territory of the Gentiles.

 

[marks]

He saw the Thessalonians, like in the Spirit? Or like through God's eyes?

Seated together . . . Oh, look! There is His throne! Too bright! And the cherubim, and the elders, and, oh look! It's the church! I can see them all!!

Ephesians 3:3-4
3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Much love!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

My personal opinion is that control is a bit too strong of a word. I consider influence to be the better term. But we would have to visit individual texts in order to work through it if you wanted to.

Like I had mentioned, all of the text is right there in the Bible . . . Holy Mind Control is an unavoidable fact of the Bible. I can't see any way around it, as it is abundantly obvious.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Of course. Thanks for asking.
Isn't it Acts 21 where we're told Paul had a custom, even though we're led to believe he said he was sent to bring the gospel to the gentiles, to also take the gospel to Synagogues in regions he was near and particularly on Sabbath day?
Maybe that was why he was diverted to Thessalonica before entering into the territory of the Gentiles.

Other Gentile territories, you mean.

I suppose it's possible, but it was God who redirected him, and there's nothing in the text says God did so specifically because he was to preach to the Jews there, or that it was because there was a prominent synagogue.

It's all conjecture anyway, but I will tell you what I believe. They were givers, generous people, and much like with Cornelius and his household, this really caught the eye of the Lord. As the angel told Cornelius, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter." (Acts 10:4-5).

Generosity is an almost sure sign that someone is motivated by love, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is mentioned as coming upon both Cornelius and his household and the Thessalonians. This along with the knowledge of God's word is what might be termed the TRUE riches, and as such God looks for those who will be givers and not takers when they are entrusted with it. Both also proved to be fighters. Cornelius was a leader of 80 Roman soldiers under his command, and the Thessalonians were praised by Paul for enduring "the same sufferings among your fellow countrymen that we did among the Jews."

I think these are two major reasons why they were specifically chosen by God above many others throughout Asia Minor.

Forgive me if I didn't fully understand your response. I was guessing at what I thought you were saying.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Seated together . . . Oh, look! There is His throne! Too bright! And the cherubim, and the elders, and, oh look! It's the church! I can see them all!!

Ephesians 3:3-4
3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Well, I'm gonna have to wave a white flag and say I still don't get it, LoL. But maybe it will come to me later.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Like I had mentioned, all of the text is right there in the Bible . . . Holy Mind Control is an unavoidable fact of the Bible. I can't see any way around it, as it is abundantly obvious.

Ok, well our sister seems to think along somewhat similar lines, so I will ask her if she wishes to discuss it.

@WaterSong: Care to discuss any of the events 2nd Timothy Group brought up in the following post, i.e. in light of your take on predestination?

I would recommend that all who plan to read the entire Bible again, keep track of how often the Lord controls a person’s thoughts . . . their minds. God was in such obvious control (in the Old Testament), he could change the way kings thought by simply controlling the elements; the weather, for example. Consider these things as well: What is a hardened heart all about? Why did the Lord place Israel into an extra “deep sleep”? Why did the Lord control the Mind of Pharaoh? And the mind of Nebuchadnezzar? And the mind of king Saul, who first started out with a Spirit of the Lord upon him, only to die with an Evil Spirit, also of which was sent by God? Consider the difference in the way king Saul thought both before and after his exchange of Spirit. He went from thinking and behaving like a good, normal person . . . perhaps even a person that our God appreciated. However, his thinking and behavior clearly changed, as though a crazed animal on the hunt for the Father of Christ . . . the future king David. These two different thinking patterns . . . which of them was from Saul himself? Which Saul was he? I would say neither. In fact, I would say that neither sets of behavior were from Saul, but they were first from a loving Spirit who caused Saul to be good. The second Spirit, however, caused Saul to seek blatant murder without cause. David Loved king Saul and refused to hurt him even when given the chance. Yet, Saul sought murder. Was Saul really the author of those thoughts? Of course not. Paul tells us, clearly, what the problem is . . . it is the Sinful Nature.

 

[charity]

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, incessantly remembering your work of faith, and labor of love, and endurance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing brothers that you have been chosen, in having been beloved by God. (1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)

Questions:
In the above passage, Paul stated in verse four that he knew the Thessalonians had been chosen by God - the text reads literally, "knowing, brothers, your election..."

So the questions become:

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God?
Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?
Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense?

'We give thanks to God always for you all,
making mention of you in our prayers;
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith,
and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ,
in the sight of God and our Father;
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

How did Paul know their election? Verse 5 gives the answer to this question, and the verses which follow:-

(4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(5) For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;

as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.​

(6) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(7) So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
(8) For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia,

but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.​

(9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,

and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;​

(10) And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,

even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.'​

* The conversion of Cornelius and the Gentile believers with him, was accompanied by the same power from on high (Acts 10:44), which evidenced to Peter and the Jerusalem council that God was indeed no respecter of persons, but that the Holy Ghost had been given to them, as He had been given to the Jews at Pentecost (Acts 11:15-18). This same power from on high was evidenced when Paul preached the gospel to the Thessalonians. It was visible in 'much assurance', and by the fruit it bore in them, as described in the following verses.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

'We give thanks to God always for you all,
making mention of you in our prayers;
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith,
and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ,
in the sight of God and our Father;
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

How did Paul know their election? Verse 5 gives the answer to this question, and the verses which follow:-

(4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(5) For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;

as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.​

(6) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(7) So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
(8) For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia,

but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.​

(9) For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,

and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;​

(10) And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,

even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.'​

* The conversion of Cornelius and the Gentile believers with him, was accompanied by the same power from on high (Acts 10:44), which evidenced to Peter and the Jerusalem council that God was indeed no respecter of persons, but that the Holy Ghost had been given to them, as He had been given to the Jews at Pentecost (Acts 11:15-18). This same power from on high was evidenced when Paul preached the gospel to the Thessalonians. It was visible in 'much assurance', and by the fruit it bore in them, as described in the following verses.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Glory to God, Charity! You just put forward my position in a nutshell : )

@Mayflower, @marks, @WaterSong, @2nd Timothy Group, @Ronald Nolette, @atpollard. The above is actually my answer to Question #1, put succinctly. It seems to me that Paul's language means there was an objective way of knowing when someone had been chosen by God or not. The Thessalonians received not only the preaching of the gospel but the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And doing so was not something that was simply inferred during New Testament times. Acts suggests there were visible, external evidences for when someone received the outpouring, and by that I mean Spirit-led tongues and prophecy were being uttered among them.

I am not making any doctrinal statement about looking for such evidence today, because most of modern Pentecostalism is a shell of its former self, even going back to just the early 1900s let alone NT times. But I do believe this is what led Paul to make the objective, unequivocal statement in our passage that the Thessalonians had been "chosen by God."

If anyone has thoughts they'd like to add, or wants to refute this interpretation, please feel free. These studies are intended as discussions, and that is why they are designed the way they are, rather than me simply presenting only my interpretation from the outset, and not encouraging others to share their own thoughts.

 

[Enoch111]

So the questions become:

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God? BECAUSE THEY OBEYED THE GOSPEL.

Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?
ALL WHO HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN BY GOD FOR PERFECTION (NOT SALVATION)

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense? YES. THE SAINTS ARE PREDESTINED TO BE GLORIFIED.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Question #1: How did Paul know the Thessalonians had in fact been chosen by God? BECAUSE THEY OBEYED THE GOSPEL.

Question #2: Are there Christians that you yourself could say you know are in fact chosen by God? If so, what do you base this conclusion on?
ALL WHO HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN BY GOD FOR PERFECTION (NOT SALVATION)

Question #3: Do you think this passage teaches predestination? If so, in what sense? YES. THE SAINTS ARE PREDESTINED TO BE GLORIFIED.

Ok, thanks for joining, Enoch.

Now these answers are similar to ones already given. My general follow up question was essentially this: Suppose a person is bearing what appears to be good fruit for a time, i.e. obeying the gospel as you say, but then falls into gross sin and departs from the faith altogether. Was such a person still truly chosen by God but fell away, or were they never truly chosen to begin with, and it only appeared that they were?

 

[Enoch111]

My general follow up question was essentially this: Suppose a person is bearing what appears to be good fruit for a time, i.e. obeying the gospel as you say, but then falls into gross sin and departs from the faith altogether. Was such a person still truly chosen by God but fell away, or were they never truly chosen to begin with, and it only appeared that they were?

In response, Christians need to be perfectly clear about several things:

1. Eternal life is God's GIFT to the sinner who genuinely repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. And only God knows who is truly a child of God.

2. The ones who believe are born again -- born of God -- therefore they have no desire to revert back to a sinful lifestyle or fall away from their faith in Christ. Therefore they will bear spiritual fruit.

3. Christians who do stumble, or fall into sin temporarily, are not left to themselves. God works in their lives to bring them to repentance and restoration by various means.

4. If that does not result in a change, then there is "the sin unto death", which is premature physical death. However, the soul and spirit are saved, and they remain as children of God who may lose their rewards.