2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
Outstanding! I like this format, where we all share ideas, hoping that someone will put forth the key answer. Great job @charity and nice Work, HIH.
Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4
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Outstanding! I like this format, where we all share ideas, hoping that someone will put forth the key answer. Great job @charity and nice Work, HIH.
It's not important!Well, I'm gonna have to wave a white flag and say I still don't get it, LoL. But maybe it will come to me later.
Much love!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
As far as chosen is concerned, I would suggest we are all chosen. Jesus has died for every man, thus has elected all men to be saved, and in that sense, has saved the whole world.
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Because Christ has died for all men, only one thing can stop anyone from being saved. Unbelief. Now, about Thessalonica, there are some major lessons totally pertinent for today... Yet there may also be a specific reason why the holy Spirit led Paul to that particular city... It was a hub for travelers... Anyone receiving the gospel would them be in a position to share it with others, this disseminating the gospel throughout Asia.
“Lonely Planet” in 2010 rated Thessalonica as the fifth best ‘party city’ in the world. For many reasons the city is today a major tourist magnet, and as we delve a little into her history, we find that such a reputation did not come about by accident.
In the book of Daniel, written some 500 odd years before the time of Paul, there is a well known prophetic passage concerning the Grecian Empire, which in Daniel’s day, had not yet evolved. The prophecy informs us that the empire, after the death of the first king, would divide into four. History reveals the veracity of this prophecy, for after the untimely death of Alexander the Great, the empire went through a series of battles and skirmishes between several warring contenders for the throne, settling eventually for a divided empire where four of Alexander’s generals proclaimed themselves ‘kings’ over their respective territories. Ptolemy ruled over Egypt, Palestine, and a portion of Syria; Seleucus became ruler over Babylon and Assyria; Lysimachus became ruler over Thrace and portions of Asia minor, while Cassander ruled over Macedonia and Grecia.
It was in 315 BC that Cassander founded Thessalonica, naming the city after his wife, Thessalonike, who was Alexander’s half-sister and daughter to Philip 11. With this kind of heritage, it was inevitable that Thessalonica was destined to be more than a backwater village, and so it proved. It quickly became an important trade hub, dissecting as it did two very significant trade routes, and being a principal port at the head of a natural harbour. By Paul’s time, the city then being under the auspices of Rome, had grown to become a major cultural and military center as well as a business and political center, the Romans making it the capital of all the Greek territories within Rome’s province. Today, she is still the capital of that region of Macedonia, and is Greece’s second largest city behind Athens.
Thus Paul was not entering a village of no repute, but a thriving major center for commerce, culture, and politics. And the residents of that city were as culturally diverse as you would expect from any modern cosmopolitan city. Jewish, Greek and Roman influences brought a mix that was always going to create an uneasy tension. Although Thessalonica enjoyed a state of independence from direct Roman rule, there were however problems.
However benign an occupying power may be, and no matter how generous and peaceful that power may act toward any of its defeated territories, any spirit of toleration that the vanquished may feel toward the conquerors is always going to be at best temporary. Taxes for example were siphoned off for the good of the greater empire. And the leaders of the city were chosen more for their loyalties toward Rome than for any love for Thessalonica , and more often than not, were from elsewhere. None of this of course affected the wealthy too much for like today, they have long learned how to avoid taxes, and how to curry favour with the politicians. The working classes however, they were affected, the disparity between rich and poor growing daily, fomenting no little grievance. Jerusalem by contrast was even worse off. Having no independence whatsoever, the political and social situation there provoked many to rebel against the occupying forces, the Romans being required to bolster their armed forces there constantly. Jerusalem for the average Roman soldier was the last place they wanted to be stationed at. Thus whatever lessons that we can learn from both Jesus, whose ministry in Jerusalem is of particular interest in this context, and Paul who travelled throughout Asia minor, Greece and elsewhere, will be of immense importance as we consider todays global community and how we are to reach out to an even greater political, religious, racial and ethnic mix than any Jesus or Paul had to contend with.
So Paul was walking into a minefield, with the political situation simmering and threatening to boil over, the tensions mounting between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’, how was Paul to handle such a situation and promote the gospel? What was his attitude to the various social ’causes’ that were prevalent in the city, how was he to approach the situation and teach the gospel impartially without alienating many of his intended disciples? In his letter to the Corinthians, a city a little to the south of Thessalonica, we find some clues as to Paul’s attitude. In his first letter to Corinth, Paul stated; 1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Now surely we ought not think that Paul’s attitude would be any different elsewhere, his own testimony being that God sent him to preach the gospel, even to the point of not baptizing anyone. (1 Cor. 1:17). So in a cosmopolitan city such as Thessalonica, how was Paul to minister to such a diverse racial and social mix? Rich and poor, Greek , Roman and Jew, working class and politician, soldier, tradesman, and artisan, religious, philosophical, heathen and idolaters, masters and servants, all, without exception, potential candidates for the kingdom of God. Paul’s comment above to the Corinthians, that he was determined not to know anything among them save Jesus and Him crucified, is a powerful clue to Paul’s thinking. His focus was on the gospel, and nothing else. Elsewhere in that same letter to the Corinthians Paul has this to say:
1 Cor. 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
This thread can and should take on a personal turn as we contemplate our own thoughts regarding some political situations in our own countries, be it the US, Britain, Australia or New Zealand or elsewhere.
. For some time now i have been tempted to favor one particular political cause, which if successful, will be the harbinger of a great divisive time for our nation, however, in the light of recent events I have been forced to rethink my attitude. Jesus, in response to a challenge from a religious leader regarding the payment of taxes to Rome, replied with the now very well-known “render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and to God, that which is God’s”. New light dawned in my mind, and I realised that if I were to obey the call to preach the gospel to every creature under heaven, then as a Christian I could not afford to alienate a very large portion of potential candidates for the kingdom if I were seen as a supporter for one particular side of any political divide. The only hope for the unfettered preaching of the gospel in any situation regardless of which country one resides in, is to remain totally neutral in all political affairs, just as Paul and Jesus demonstrated. Neither curried favour with any civil or religious power, but treated all with equal magnanimity and a love that knew no favourites.
As the Christian church today is so immersed in the political machinations of several nations round the world, I would strongly suggest that they are working against the intents and purposes of the very gospel they claim they are promoting.. How so? By aligning themselves with one side of the political divide, making themselves protagonists against many who God would seek to have in His kingdom. Legislation supporting religious efforts to “Christianise” a nation are doomed to failure, for they do not and cannot change the hearts and minds of anyone. An outward obedience to Christian ethics does not a Christian make. Only a repentant heart an inward life-changing rebirth of the spirit of man will ever make a child of God.
We have such an ethnically mixed situation today in every major city in the world, perhaps to an even more marked extent. How is the church today reacting to the present situation of social mix that is so common today? How is the church today seeking to minister the gospel to such a wide range of racial, religious, and social classes?
I think that we have to realise that we are not sent to minister to groups of people, but individuals, and we must show ourselves tolerant and accepting and impartial to every individual, regardless of that individual’s personal political, religious, or ethnic and cultural leanings. When we come to this point in our own experience in witnessing, then we are allowing our Master full freedom to give His approbation and strength to our efforts.
KJV 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Because Christ has died for all men, only one thing can stop anyone from being saved. Unbelief. Now, about Thessalonica, there are some major lessons totally pertinent for today... Yet there may also be a specific reason why the holy Spirit led Paul to that particular city... It was a hub for travelers... Anyone receiving the gospel would them be in a position to share it with others, this disseminating the gospel throughout Asia.
“Lonely Planet” in 2010 rated Thessalonica as the fifth best ‘party city’ in the world. For many reasons the city is today a major tourist magnet, and as we delve a little into her history, we find that such a reputation did not come about by accident.
In the book of Daniel, written some 500 odd years before the time of Paul, there is a well known prophetic passage concerning the Grecian Empire, which in Daniel’s day, had not yet evolved. The prophecy informs us that the empire, after the death of the first king, would divide into four. History reveals the veracity of this prophecy, for after the untimely death of Alexander the Great, the empire went through a series of battles and skirmishes between several warring contenders for the throne, settling eventually for a divided empire where four of Alexander’s generals proclaimed themselves ‘kings’ over their respective territories. Ptolemy ruled over Egypt, Palestine, and a portion of Syria; Seleucus became ruler over Babylon and Assyria; Lysimachus became ruler over Thrace and portions of Asia minor, while Cassander ruled over Macedonia and Grecia.
It was in 315 BC that Cassander founded Thessalonica, naming the city after his wife, Thessalonike, who was Alexander’s half-sister and daughter to Philip 11. With this kind of heritage, it was inevitable that Thessalonica was destined to be more than a backwater village, and so it proved. It quickly became an important trade hub, dissecting as it did two very significant trade routes, and being a principal port at the head of a natural harbour. By Paul’s time, the city then being under the auspices of Rome, had grown to become a major cultural and military center as well as a business and political center, the Romans making it the capital of all the Greek territories within Rome’s province. Today, she is still the capital of that region of Macedonia, and is Greece’s second largest city behind Athens.
Thus Paul was not entering a village of no repute, but a thriving major center for commerce, culture, and politics. And the residents of that city were as culturally diverse as you would expect from any modern cosmopolitan city. Jewish, Greek and Roman influences brought a mix that was always going to create an uneasy tension. Although Thessalonica enjoyed a state of independence from direct Roman rule, there were however problems.
However benign an occupying power may be, and no matter how generous and peaceful that power may act toward any of its defeated territories, any spirit of toleration that the vanquished may feel toward the conquerors is always going to be at best temporary. Taxes for example were siphoned off for the good of the greater empire. And the leaders of the city were chosen more for their loyalties toward Rome than for any love for Thessalonica , and more often than not, were from elsewhere. None of this of course affected the wealthy too much for like today, they have long learned how to avoid taxes, and how to curry favour with the politicians. The working classes however, they were affected, the disparity between rich and poor growing daily, fomenting no little grievance. Jerusalem by contrast was even worse off. Having no independence whatsoever, the political and social situation there provoked many to rebel against the occupying forces, the Romans being required to bolster their armed forces there constantly. Jerusalem for the average Roman soldier was the last place they wanted to be stationed at. Thus whatever lessons that we can learn from both Jesus, whose ministry in Jerusalem is of particular interest in this context, and Paul who travelled throughout Asia minor, Greece and elsewhere, will be of immense importance as we consider todays global community and how we are to reach out to an even greater political, religious, racial and ethnic mix than any Jesus or Paul had to contend with.
So Paul was walking into a minefield, with the political situation simmering and threatening to boil over, the tensions mounting between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’, how was Paul to handle such a situation and promote the gospel? What was his attitude to the various social ’causes’ that were prevalent in the city, how was he to approach the situation and teach the gospel impartially without alienating many of his intended disciples? In his letter to the Corinthians, a city a little to the south of Thessalonica, we find some clues as to Paul’s attitude. In his first letter to Corinth, Paul stated; 1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Now surely we ought not think that Paul’s attitude would be any different elsewhere, his own testimony being that God sent him to preach the gospel, even to the point of not baptizing anyone. (1 Cor. 1:17). So in a cosmopolitan city such as Thessalonica, how was Paul to minister to such a diverse racial and social mix? Rich and poor, Greek , Roman and Jew, working class and politician, soldier, tradesman, and artisan, religious, philosophical, heathen and idolaters, masters and servants, all, without exception, potential candidates for the kingdom of God. Paul’s comment above to the Corinthians, that he was determined not to know anything among them save Jesus and Him crucified, is a powerful clue to Paul’s thinking. His focus was on the gospel, and nothing else. Elsewhere in that same letter to the Corinthians Paul has this to say:
1 Cor. 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
This thread can and should take on a personal turn as we contemplate our own thoughts regarding some political situations in our own countries, be it the US, Britain, Australia or New Zealand or elsewhere.
. For some time now i have been tempted to favor one particular political cause, which if successful, will be the harbinger of a great divisive time for our nation, however, in the light of recent events I have been forced to rethink my attitude. Jesus, in response to a challenge from a religious leader regarding the payment of taxes to Rome, replied with the now very well-known “render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and to God, that which is God’s”. New light dawned in my mind, and I realised that if I were to obey the call to preach the gospel to every creature under heaven, then as a Christian I could not afford to alienate a very large portion of potential candidates for the kingdom if I were seen as a supporter for one particular side of any political divide. The only hope for the unfettered preaching of the gospel in any situation regardless of which country one resides in, is to remain totally neutral in all political affairs, just as Paul and Jesus demonstrated. Neither curried favour with any civil or religious power, but treated all with equal magnanimity and a love that knew no favourites.
As the Christian church today is so immersed in the political machinations of several nations round the world, I would strongly suggest that they are working against the intents and purposes of the very gospel they claim they are promoting.. How so? By aligning themselves with one side of the political divide, making themselves protagonists against many who God would seek to have in His kingdom. Legislation supporting religious efforts to “Christianise” a nation are doomed to failure, for they do not and cannot change the hearts and minds of anyone. An outward obedience to Christian ethics does not a Christian make. Only a repentant heart an inward life-changing rebirth of the spirit of man will ever make a child of God.
We have such an ethnically mixed situation today in every major city in the world, perhaps to an even more marked extent. How is the church today reacting to the present situation of social mix that is so common today? How is the church today seeking to minister the gospel to such a wide range of racial, religious, and social classes?
I think that we have to realise that we are not sent to minister to groups of people, but individuals, and we must show ourselves tolerant and accepting and impartial to every individual, regardless of that individual’s personal political, religious, or ethnic and cultural leanings. When we come to this point in our own experience in witnessing, then we are allowing our Master full freedom to give His approbation and strength to our efforts.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I would disagree. Th eplain stsatement taken at face value simply says that we were predestined in HIM, before the foundation of the world.
We are predestined to be in Christ! The result of that predestination is that we will be holy and without blame.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Remember Paul was writing a letter to the local church in Thesselonians. He was telling them that they were chosen by god before the foundation of the World. Simply put- If you are saved, it was because you were chosen to be saved. Period! No objective criteria for us to determine.
We can only discern on the basis of externals. We have no conclusive objective measure. We can reliably say one is saved because of their life over time, but ultimately that is for God alone to discern.
I think your response above speaks to the complexity of the problem. I would fully agree with the wording of everything you just said (at face value), and yet how we are interpreting those words is where we disagree.
Ah... now this wording is where we would very clearly disagree. See, the words "chosen to be saved" are not actually in the text. You are inferring them. Granted, it is a viable interpretation of what is being said, but that wording is not actually used. The clause "that new we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" is actually in the text, which is why I highlighted it, but the phrase, "that few should be saved" is not, so contextually I would have to stick with how I interpret things here. But I do understand that there has long been a difference of opinion on what the initial phrase means.
God bless, Roland, and good to be exchanging thoughts on the passage together.
Blessings, my brother! Just trying to get caught up atm, so let me read and respond to this novel in a little while, LoL (kidding).
Thanks for the response, Backlit.
P.S. LoL!! It wouldn't even let me post the above response because the 10-15 words I added put me over the 1,000 word limit. (gonna have to take it piece by piece, apparently).
Always nice when the Lord confirms your initial thoughts, LoL.
Hello @Backlit,
Thank you for taking the time to enter this, I enjoyed reading what you had to say.
* Looking at the record of Paul's visit to Thessalonica in Acts 17, We are told that Paul had followed his usual custom, and went to the synagogue in Thessalonica, and reasoned with them out of the Scriptures, showing them, from the word of God itself, how Christ had to suffer and die, that He was risen from the dead, and was indeed The Christ: the Messiah that they looked for. Some believed; but, those Jews who believed not were 'moved with envy', because a great many devout Greeks and many women of standing believed the gospel message Paul preached (Romans 1:1-4).
* Gentiles were being brought into the Kingdom at that time with the intention of stirring up the Jew to Jealousy (Romans 11:11), in the attempt to cause them to emulate the Gentiles (Romans 11:14) by also coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Deliverer, their Messiah: but though envy and jealousy were indeed roused, it failed to move them to repentance, though Paul himself desired that so very much (Romans 9:1-2).
* When speaking to the Jews, Paul always let the Word of God speak, he reasoned with them by referring to passages within the Old Testament Scriptures, which prophesied concerning the One Who was to come, the Messiah, and showed them how these prophecies were fulfilled in the Person, and work, of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, His death and resurrection: Who had come as their Kinsman-Redeemer in order to redeem.
* Their envy as they saw the multitude of Greeks who believed, mirrored that of unbelieving Jews within their own nation, and they, like them inadvertently fulfilled the prophecies of Moses and Isaiah that Paul referred to in Romans 10:19-21:-
(19) 'But I say, Did not Israel know?
First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,
and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
(20) But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
(21) But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.'
* So those who came to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in Thessalonica, had to endure a trial by fire according to the record, but in the face of all opposition it looked as though their faith did not flounder. The evidence of their belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, in the assurance they manifested, and their Divinely given grace and love, must have been a great comfort to Paul.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Is it too late to get in on the discussion?
People are chosen on the basis of their faith. Not only was it evident that God was working through Paul's message, but their joyful reception of the message showed they had the faith upon which God choses people for salvation.
The predetermined plan is that people who are elected to salvation on the basis of their faith will be conformed to the image of Christ in the doing of good works. That's why he saved us.....
Paul knew God has chosen them by the fact that the gospel came to them with deep conviction in the power of the Holy Spirit and that they welcomed it with the joy of the Spirit.
4 ...we know that He has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power, in the Holy Spirit, and with great conviction—just as you know we lived among you for your sake. 6And you became imitators of us and of the Lord when you welcomed the message with the joy of the Holy Spirit... 1 Thessalonians 1:4-6
People are chosen on the basis of their faith. Not only was it evident that God was working through Paul's message, but their joyful reception of the message showed they had the faith upon which God choses people for salvation.
Yes, I know Christians who I know for a fact have been chosen by God. I know it by the fact that they are growing up into that which God chose them to be. Myself included.
The fact that they have become imitators of the Lord shows they are being conformed into the image of Christ, the very thing that believers are predestined to have happen to them....
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... Romans 8:29
10 ...created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10
10 ...created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10
The predetermined plan is that people who are elected to salvation on the basis of their faith will be conformed to the image of Christ in the doing of good works. That's why he saved us.....
14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:14
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NEVER!!! ... although I'm three posts behind now : )
Thanks for responding. I'll get caught up here soon enough.
I read through your post, Backlit. Let me concentrate just on this part since it is most relevant to the question I posed in the OP.
This is an interesting take... I suppose my reply would be, if everyone is chosen by God, wouldn't that make Paul's telling the Thessalonians that they had been chosen sort of superfluous?
God bless, and I have never heard this take on chosen theology before, so feel free to respond.
- H
Hello @Hidden In Him,
In response to questions 2 & 3, I would say that, 'believing on the Lord Jesus Christ,' is in itself evidence of the work of God, and of life from above. I do not believe that this passage teaches pre-destination in regard to salvation, No!
God has foreknowledge, therefore knows beforehand all who will respond to His call of grace, and accordingly marks them off beforehand for the various spheres of glory that His purpose demands.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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VictoryinJesus
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no need to respond ...just thinking out loud.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Predestination...is this the same as an predetermined destination or outcome? John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
What is “predestined” to be conformed to the image of His Son if not that which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit ...”you must be born again.” Being not conformed into the image of the world but “transformed by the renewing of the mind”? Where as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, HE also himself took part of the same (flesh and blood); that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; ...and deliver those in the bondage (captive) of death...” taking on the nature of flesh and blood ...HE also partook of flesh and blood that we might partake of His image in as you have borne the earthly image ...You also shall bear the heavenly image. Hebrews 2:14-16 he also did predestinate to be conformed (transformed) to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
So what is “predestination” if not “you must be born again” the destination determined before the foundation of all things being ...a turn ...forsaking of our ways and thoughts which lead to death and returning unto God.
1 Corinthians 15:22 Lexicon: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Have you ever considered what God has predestinated for “his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all”? What a pre determined destination in walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit Ephesians 1:21-23 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: [22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
...and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church...Which is His body, the fullness (a filling up) of Him who fills (to make full, to complete,2 Corinthians 13:9 Lexicon: For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you be made complete.) all in all...; consider this with come you who hunger and thirst and you will be filled and never hunger and thirst again. Consider with these Wells of living water flowing out from....Consider the opposite of given over to a reprobate mind being filled with all unrighteousness of a mind which opposes the mind of Christ.
Point is...what is predestinated to be transformed if not set free from a reprobate mind having passed from death unto Life, the Mind of Christ. He who hates his brother remains in darkness and death still... “predestinated” to conform to the image of His Son “make full, to fill up, to complete” (2 Corinthians 5:18-20... be ye reconciled to God.)
Colossians 1:18-24 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [24] Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
...for his body’s sake, which is the church
...he is the head of the body, the church:
...that in all things he might have the preeminence
...his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
If we say his body fails ...the fullness of him that fills all in all...then is this blaming the Head of His body for not able to lead His body? Point is, I hope it is so ...that the Head of His body has the preeminence of His body.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, told him so. Part of the standard issues ‘Apostle Package’ essential for writing ‘God breathed’ scripture.I believe I know what you may be hinting at here, but I want you to spell it out for me in better detail. How did Paul know they were chosen in light of 1 Corinthians 12:4-11?
VictoryinJesus
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Predestinated for what then I have to ask in “conformed (transformed) into the image of His Son” ...Who is the beginning says a lot.
Which comes first then ...the end or the beginning? Is being predestinated being conformed into the end or is the predestinated transformed unto Him “Who is the beginning”
Colossians 1:18 Lexicon: He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
“Who is the beginning” the first born from the dead ...IF not predestinated to be conformed into the image of His Son in “behold, all things are become new.”
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
question then (at least for me) when considering predestinated is which has God revealed first the beginning or the end? If not; the end and also “who is the beginning” the first born from the dead, Revelation 1:17-19 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Which comes first then ...the end or the beginning? Is being predestinated being conformed into the end or is the predestinated transformed unto Him “Who is the beginning”
Colossians 1:18 Lexicon: He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
“Who is the beginning” the first born from the dead ...IF not predestinated to be conformed into the image of His Son in “behold, all things are become new.”
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
question then (at least for me) when considering predestinated is which has God revealed first the beginning or the end? If not; the end and also “who is the beginning” the first born from the dead, Revelation 1:17-19 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. [19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
'We give thanks to God always for you all,
making mention of you in our prayers;
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith,
and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ,
in the sight of God and our Father;
.. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
.... For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
...... but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;
........ as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.'
(1 Thess. 1:2-4)
Hello again, @Hidden In Him,
Reading this in conjunction with the record of Paul's visit to Thessalonica, when these believers first believed ( Acts 17:1-15), really helps us to understand what Paul meant, when he said, 'For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.' Which immediately follows the words you highlight in your questions, 'Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.'
Their visit to Thessalonica was accompanied by persecution, which followed them even as they left. This form of opposition and degree of adverse reaction to Paul's ministry in itself shows the degree of spiritual activity which surrounded the delivery of the gospel of God in that place at that time. Opposing 'spiritual' activity (Ephesians 6:12) against the outworking of the Holy Spirit which was manifest in the unbelieving Jew's reaction to the conversion of some Jews, but many of the devout Greeks, and women of note within the congregation in the synagogue. This also is evidential of the believers 'election of God' I believe.
@Hidden In Him, I believe there is more here to be considered in relation to the election of these believers in Thessalonica, which shows the outworking of God's purposes at that time. It was a choosing for a purpose, of which salvation was a requisite part, but not necessarily the end in view. The goal being so much bigger. The fact that they are described as being 'devout Greeks', who obviously believed in the God of Israel, and attended the synagogue for the purpose of hearing the word of God, in the form of the Old Testament Scriptures, read to them. They would have known Paul's readings from the prophets and the psalms, concerning the Messiah, the Holy one of Israel, as the Jews in the congregation did, and God gave them the grace to believe that these prophesies were concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, whose birth, ministry, death and resurrection were all the subject of those Old Testament scriptures. Their eyes were opened and their ears opened to believe and receive the gift of God, of salvation, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, and in doing so, they would enflame the Jew into jealousy, with the hope that they would come to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King.
These were not, the 'far off Gentile' described in Ephesians, which would be written about by Paul at least 10 years later. These were Gentiles who believed in God already, they were devout, as Cornelius had been, who on believing the word's of the gospel preached by Paul, would be grafted into Israel's Olive Tree in the endeavour to promote growth into that ailing tree, as Cornelius had been following the preaching of Peter. They received of the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit associated with the millennial reign. This would have been evidenced by the unbelieving Jews, and they reacted against them out of jealousy, for the blessings being given were rightfully their's, but which they could not access because of their unbelief.
I will leave it here,
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
making mention of you in our prayers;
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith,
and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ,
in the sight of God and our Father;
.. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
.... For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
...... but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;
........ as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.'
(1 Thess. 1:2-4)
Hello again, @Hidden In Him,
Reading this in conjunction with the record of Paul's visit to Thessalonica, when these believers first believed ( Acts 17:1-15), really helps us to understand what Paul meant, when he said, 'For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.' Which immediately follows the words you highlight in your questions, 'Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.'
Their visit to Thessalonica was accompanied by persecution, which followed them even as they left. This form of opposition and degree of adverse reaction to Paul's ministry in itself shows the degree of spiritual activity which surrounded the delivery of the gospel of God in that place at that time. Opposing 'spiritual' activity (Ephesians 6:12) against the outworking of the Holy Spirit which was manifest in the unbelieving Jew's reaction to the conversion of some Jews, but many of the devout Greeks, and women of note within the congregation in the synagogue. This also is evidential of the believers 'election of God' I believe.
@Hidden In Him, I believe there is more here to be considered in relation to the election of these believers in Thessalonica, which shows the outworking of God's purposes at that time. It was a choosing for a purpose, of which salvation was a requisite part, but not necessarily the end in view. The goal being so much bigger. The fact that they are described as being 'devout Greeks', who obviously believed in the God of Israel, and attended the synagogue for the purpose of hearing the word of God, in the form of the Old Testament Scriptures, read to them. They would have known Paul's readings from the prophets and the psalms, concerning the Messiah, the Holy one of Israel, as the Jews in the congregation did, and God gave them the grace to believe that these prophesies were concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, whose birth, ministry, death and resurrection were all the subject of those Old Testament scriptures. Their eyes were opened and their ears opened to believe and receive the gift of God, of salvation, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, and in doing so, they would enflame the Jew into jealousy, with the hope that they would come to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King.
These were not, the 'far off Gentile' described in Ephesians, which would be written about by Paul at least 10 years later. These were Gentiles who believed in God already, they were devout, as Cornelius had been, who on believing the word's of the gospel preached by Paul, would be grafted into Israel's Olive Tree in the endeavour to promote growth into that ailing tree, as Cornelius had been following the preaching of Peter. They received of the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit associated with the millennial reign. This would have been evidenced by the unbelieving Jews, and they reacted against them out of jealousy, for the blessings being given were rightfully their's, but which they could not access because of their unbelief.
I will leave it here,
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I think your response above speaks to the complexity of the problem. I would fully agree with the wording of everything you just said (at face value), and yet how we are interpreting those words is where we disagree.
Ah... now this wording is where we would very clearly disagree. See, the words "chosen to be saved" are not actually in the text. You are inferring them. Granted, it is a viable interpretation of what is being said, but that wording is not actually used. The clause "that new we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" is actually in the text, which is why I highlighted it, but the phrase, "that few should be saved" is not, so contextually I would have to stick with how I interpret things here. But I do understand that there has long been a difference of opinion on what the initial phrase means.
God bless, Roland, and good to be exchanging thoughts on the passage together.
Well yes saved is not explicitly said in this passage, but only the saved are in christ and only the saved are to be holy and without blame before HIm in love. so "those to be saved" is accurately expressing what is being said by the verse.
We are chosen to be in HIM, and as a result of being chosen, we are to be holy and without blame. The holy and without blame is a result of being chosen and not the choice itself.
'According as He hath chosen us in Him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love: ... ... '
(Eph 1:4)
Hello @Ronald Nolette,
This epistle is written to 'the saints in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' at Ephesus, and wherever it was circulated. These were already saved. Paul could say, 'He (God) hath chosen US'. When? 'before the foundation of the world' With what purpose? 'That we should be holy and without blame before Him in love' (ie., 'Holy and without blemish' Ephesians 5:23-25) or ('Holy and unblameable' Colossians 1:12-23). This is what we are 'In Christ' now; 'made meet' by the Father (Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 1:12) by the offering of His Son (Ephesians 5:25-27; Colossians 1:22), 'presented perfect' by the Son . 'Blessed be God' indeed!
* Ir is a finished work!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
This one took me a bit to think through for a second, but the problem for me here is this: It assumes that they are/were unconditionally saved and could never lose their salvation.
Is this something you subscribe to?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Hi my bro, @charity put it well in her last post. Even before the foundation of the world, we, that is the entire human race, was chosen to be be saved. This to my mind has nothing to do with predestination, as most people think of predestination. God did not have to save us. He could have left us to languish in iniquity and eventually die and be ultimately destroyed. God did not have to send His only Son ti die in our place. But He chose to do so. And Jesus His Son agreed. They chose to save, redeem, and deliver mankind from the curse of sin, rescue us from what would have been oblivion, and both Father and Son paid the ultimate price. The Son chose to become human, chose to die, chose to forever link Himself with mankind in a bond that can never be broken. His death (not a make believe or metaphorical death, nor even just the temporary death of sleep aka Lazarus) was real, totally self sacrificial risking eternal damnation for our sakes. This He chose to do, thus we are His chosen.
And no-one was left out...so it isn't a matter of some being chosen for salvation, and some chosen to damnation. Jesus died for every man.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Jesus died even for our enemies. By His uplifted cross, and ongoing priestly ministry in heaven before the throne of His Father, Jesus is drawing all men to repentance. His gracious love is so strong and persistent, that the sinner must resist it in order to be lost. All present joys and blessings are wholly due to the cross of Christ, without which mankind would have long ago perished. Christ died for the ungodly.
2 Cor. 5:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
...19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Rom. 5:15-18)
If it were not so, if one needed credentials or qualifications or works, it would cease to be a free gift. As all were in Adam, and thus inheriting the sinful nature of Adam and were thus under condemnation, so now all are in Christ, the second Adam. Since He paid the price for all our sins, therefore all are chosen to be saved, to be holy, and in that sense, predestined to life, however, though we are the elect, and chosen, we also have the choice to accept or reject what we are offered. (2 Cor. 6:1) The only reason anyone will be ultimately lost, is unbelief. The lost will not be condemned because of their sin...but because of the unbelief.
To your question as to why Paul stated that the Thessalonians were chosen. No, not superfluous, but to a church struggling through persecution and trials of faith, to be told they were chosen is a word of encouragement. Also, although all are chosen to salvation, we are each chosen for a specific purpose as ministers of the gospel, having different gifts and directions and "circles" in which we operate, all I believe chosen by God in His perfect providence. That doesn't mean we don't go astray. By that I mean, go to people or live in a town or city for reasons outside of God's immediate purpose and will. Yet all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called (chosen) according to His purpose. I have been in that position. I have moved to another city for reasons other than God's purpose. Yet He brought about circumstances and situations where through His providence, good indeed came. And yet God allowed me to err, knowing His own power and confident that He could teach, guide, pursue me regardless of my impetuousness. Lesson learned however. Some of those experiences and places I don't want to repeat, yet through them I gained a great deal, possibly more than if I had never erred?
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