Your Thoughts: Are The NT/OT Gods "Different"?

[Mayflower]

Just gonna leave this here for ya

we need a mic drop

Appreciate that Fluff. I am by far not a theologian, but know the important things, I believe.

 

[Cooper]

It is incorrect to use it to describe the church in any situation. Spiritual Israel is saved Israel and the spiritual church is the bride of Christ composed of spiritual Jews and spiritual gentiles who make up a new man where nationality is disregarded. The church is the church and Israel is Israel both physically and spiritually.
Theree are mnay more differences, but that is for a different thread.

Nationality is disregarded in Spiritual ISRAEL?
.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The answer to the OP is that the apparent inconsistencies must be explained in terms of progressive revelation. Progressive revelation raises the question of the extent to which OT Jewish culture limited and distorted the revelatory impulse of prophets and what the Israelites were and were not willing to accept as God's Word. In the OT discussion of progressive revelation should begin with Jeremiah 7:21-23:


"Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat the flesh! For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices, But this command I gave them, "Obey my voice and I will be your God and you shall be my people."

In the NT discussion of this issue should begin with Jesus' recurring phrase "You have heard that it was said (in the OT), but I say unto you "and "Moses wrote his commandment for you because of the hardness of your hearts (Mark 10:5).

Thanks for the post, Berserk, and always nice to see you posting.

Mark 10:5 is easier to deal with IMO, in that the issue is merely one of divorce, something that while inconsequential in religious terms might have led to rebellion on the part of the Jews, had they been told that it was forbidden.

The real question is regarding Jeremiah 7:21-23, and what specifically was being communicated there. I must say at the outset that I'm surprised by so much presentation of the view there might have been two different "gods" at play in OT worship. That's not to say I'm "appalled," rather that I simply wasn't aware of so many seriously considering the position.

Let me give you how I would interpret the passage, and you can give me your thoughts. The words of Jeremiah the prophet would have to be weighed against the words of the other prophets, Moses being one of them, and Moses gave the law regarding the institution of the OT sacrifices. Moreover, Jeremiah himself in Jeremiah 17:26 speaks of how blessed they will be if they bring the sacrifices to Him from and obedient heart and with praises. Also, in Jeremiah 33:17-24, he speaks favorably of the covenant He made with Israelites being also a covenant He made with the priests and the Levites, meaning the sacrificial system was indelibly part of the covenant God made with them.

That having been said, I take the words "I spoke not to your fathers... concerning whole-burnt-offerings and sacrifice" as meaning that He never discussed them nor ever intended to, but that He did not discuss those things FIRST. What was most important to Him was that they hear His voice, so as not to simply fall back on the sacrifices thinking this was all they needed to do to please God. This appears to be the driving point, as the rest of the passage bears out.

21 Thus saith the Lord, Gather your whole-burnt-offerings with your meat-offerings, and eat flesh. 22 For I spoke not to your fathers, and commanded them not in the day wherein I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, concerning whole-burnt-offerings and sacrifice: 23 but I commanded them this thing, saying, Hear ye my voice, and I will be to you a God, and ye shall be to me a people: and walk ye in all my ways which I shall command you, that it may be well with you. 24 But they hearkened not to me, and their ear gave no heed, but they walked in the imaginations of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward; 25 from the day that their fathers went forth out of the land of Egypt, even until this day. And I sent to you all my servants, the prophets, by day and early in the morning: yea, I sent them, 26 but they hearkened not to me, and their ear gave no heed; and they made their neck harder than their fathers. 27 Therefore thou shalt speak this word to them; 28 This is the nation which has not hearkened to the voice of the Lord, nor received correction: truth has failed from their mouth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No way did those Jews who killed God's prophets please God. Please Satan yes, better still they would please Satan even more when they plotted our Lords death.

This doesn't answer the question, Cooper. Let me ask it again: Since the OT prophets acknowledged that they were serving the OT God, how exactly do you reconcile this? Were the prophets in the OT just as deceived as the Jewish people were, serving a God they thought was good but who was actually evil?

The apostles followed Jesus, while the majority of Jews rejected the promised Messiah and shouted 'crucify him'. The Jews had their own god, the deceiver.

Again, this doesn't answer the question I put to you. Here it is again:

You are taking a verse where a specific group of people are being addressed and extrapolating that out to where it speaks of the entire Jewish people. This is an illogical conclusion. The apostles were all JEWS. If the true God was opposed to the Jews and their "god," Why would He choose twelve JEWS to be His primary disciples, and thousands of other JEWS to be the adherents of His "true" faith for at least a dozen years before the message was ever preached to a single Gentile?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I thought Id ask about this verse here. @FluffyYellowDuck posted a thread involving it and wondered what it means. It is a hard verse. Thought it would go well with this discussion. Hopefully.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Hello, sister!

What God was aware of here is that sometimes a woman can actually very much want to have sex out of wedlock, yet not wish to be punished for it. This command eliminates that possibility. If she truly doesn't want it, she will scream for help that she is being raped. But if she says nothing, this implies she is complicit in the act, and both would be stoned to death under Jewish law.

 

[Mayflower]

Hello, sister!

What God was aware of here is that sometimes a woman can actually very much want to have sex out of wedlock, yet not wish to be punished for it. This command eliminates that possibility. If she truly doesn't want it, she will scream for help that she is being raped. But if she says nothing, this implies she is complicit in the act, and both would be stoned to death under Jewish law.

But this law wouldn't include freeze response, right? Or not being heard? Or did man misinterpret this...

 

[Hidden In Him]

The woman caught in adultery.​

The teachers of the Law were about to stone to death a woman caught committing adultery. They said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Moses commanded that such a woman must be stoned to death. What do you say?” Jesus replied, “Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.” When they heard this, they all left, one by one, the older ones first. Jesus was left alone, with the woman still standing there. He straightened up and said to her, “Where are they? Is there no one left to condemn you?”
“No one, sir,” she answered.
“Well then,” Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, but do not sin again.”

On the other hand, the god of the Jews says:-
Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial — Num. 35:12
The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning — Deut. 22:24
The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning — Lev. 20:14
The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword — Ex. 21:20
The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation — Lev. 20:10
The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry — Deut. 21:22
Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23
Not to delay burial overnight — Deut. 21:23
The court must not let the sorcerer live — Ex. 22:17
Destroy the seven Canaanite nations — Deut. 20:17
Not to let any of them remain alive — Deut. 20:16
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Lev 20:9 KJV)

The God of the Jews is not the God of the New Testament, however the pre-incarnate Jesus was in the Old Testament as well and he does indeed heal the brokenhearted. You will find the Psalms are often prophetic. The Jews need to convert to Jesus, that is why he came, and we need to learn to distinguish between the two.
.

Cooper, I could spend extensive time correcting this, but I need you to start answering the questions I have put to you already or it will simply be a one-way conversation, and allow you to continue giving more voice to heretical teaching.

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

It is incorrect to use it to describe the church in any situation. Spiritual Israel is saved Israel and the spiritual church is the bride of Christ composed of spiritual Jews and spiritual gentiles who make up a new man where nationality is disregarded. The church is the church and Israel is Israel both physically and spiritually.

I think this would be a long discussion that we'd have to set aside for another time. I would discuss Paul's teaching in Colossians that the two became one body in Him, but that's a LOT to unpack right now.

God bless!

Only by abusing the passages in the NT.

Not necessarily, actually. But again, for another time maybe.

 

[Cooper]

Cooper, I could spend extensive time correcting this, but I need you to start answering the questions I have put to you already or it will simply be a one-way conversation, and allow you to continue giving more voice to heretical teaching.

God bless,
- H

Leave it as it is written.
.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But this law wouldn't include freeze response, right? Or not being heard? Or did man misinterpret this...

I think in such matters they would have judged that she should have called upon God for the courage to scream out. But it is possible they sometimes decided such matters by means of divination as to whether the woman was actually guilty or not:

11 The Lord spoke to Moses: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: A man may suspect that his wife has had an affair[a] and has broken faith with him, 13 that a man has had intercourse with her unknown to her husband and that she has defiled herself in secret—even though there are no witnesses and she isn’t caught. 14 If jealousy overcomes him and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself, or if jealousy overcomes him and he is jealous of his wife who hasn’t defiled herself, 15 then the man will bring his wife to the priest. He will bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He will not pour oil on it, nor offer frankincense with it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a grain offering for recognition in order to recognize guilt. 16 The priest will bring her close and make her stand before the Lord. 17 The priest will take holy water in a clay jar, and taking dust from the floor of the dwelling, the priest will place it in the water. 18 The priest will make the woman stand before the Lord, let the hair of the woman hang down, and place the grain offering for recognition, that is, the grain offering for jealousy, in her hands. The water of bitterness that brings the curse will be in the hands of the priest.

19 Then the priest will make her swear a solemn pledge, saying to the woman, “If no man has slept with you and if you haven’t had an affair, becoming defiled while married to your husband, then be immune from the water of bitterness that brings these curses. 20 But if you have had an affair while married to your husband, if you have defiled yourself, and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you”— 21 then the priest must make the woman utter the curse and say to the woman, “May the Lord make you a curse and a harmful pledge among your people, when the Lord induces a miscarriage and your womb discharges. 22 And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.”

And the woman will say, “I agree, I agree.”

23 The priest will write these curses in the scroll and wipe them off into the water of bitterness. 24 Then he will make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse. And the water that brings the curse will enter her, causing bitterness. 25 The priest will take the grain offering for jealousy from the woman’s hands, elevate the grain offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest will take a handful of the grain offering as a token part of it and turn it into smoke on the altar. And afterward he will make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, then the water that brings the curse will enter her, causing bitterness, and her womb will discharge and she will miscarry. The woman will be a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman hasn’t defiled herself and she is pure, then she will be immune and able to conceive.

29 These are the instructions about jealousy, when a wife has an affair while married to her husband and defiles herself, 30 or when jealousy overcomes a man and he is jealous of his wife. The priest will make the woman stand before the Lord and will follow all these instructions concerning her. 31 The man will be free from guilt, but the woman will bear her guilt. (Numbers 5:11-31).

 

[Hidden In Him]

Leave it as it is written.
.

This is why I see you as in spiritual danger. You are not engaging in honest debate, but hiding from it, while nevertheless having no defense for your arguments. It means you will obstinately stand by the lies and the heresy you teach no matter what is presented to the contrary.

Just understand, the warning is very serious. There are consequences to this sort of thing, and I don't wish to see that come upon you.

 

[Cooper]

This doesn't answer the question, Cooper. Let me ask it again: Since the OT prophets acknowledged that they were serving the OT God, how exactly do you reconcile this? Were the prophets in the OT just as deceived as the Jewish people were, serving a God they thought was good but who was actually evil?


Again, this doesn't answer the question I put to you. Here it is again:

You are taking a verse where a specific group of people are being addressed and extrapolating that out to where it speaks of the entire Jewish people. This is an illogical conclusion. The apostles were all JEWS. If the true God was opposed to the Jews and their "god," Why would He choose twelve JEWS to be His primary disciples, and thousands of other JEWS to be the adherents of His "true" faith for at least a dozen years before the message was ever preached to a single Gentile?

The Old Testament prophets served the I AM. Among them was Isiah who they cut in half with a saw, they killed the father of John the Baptist, and that is only two, they killed the disciples, read Foxes Book of Martyr's, and of course they plotted against Jesus. Now tell me the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. They were killing God's own people! The apostle Paul knew the difference.
.

 

[Cooper]

This is why I see you as in spiritual danger. You are not engaging in honest debate, but hiding from it, while nevertheless having no defense for your arguments. It means you will obstinately stand by the lies and the heresy you teach no matter what is presented to the contrary.

Just understand, the warning is very serious. There are consequences to this sort of thing, and I don't wish to see that come upon you.

You want to rewrite scripture do you!
.

 

[Cooper]

But this law wouldn't include freeze response, right? Or not being heard? Or did man misinterpret this...

If the woman is in the wrong, or if the man was in the wrong or if they were both in the wrong for having consensual sex, does it warrant killing them?
.

 

[Mayflower]

If the woman is in the wrong, or if the man was in the wrong or if they were both in the wrong for having consensual sex, does it warrant killing them?
.

Jesus Christ had to die for our sins, so we wouldn't die in them. So I would say yes. We all deserve death.

 

[Mayflower]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 NASB1995

 

[Mayflower]

And the one God loves you so much too Cooper. I am not sure if a spirit is in danger if they believe the OT and NT is the same God or not. The Bible just says to believe, confess your sins to live. But I do know once you grasp the idea of how high God's standards are concerning sin, and providing His only Son for forgiveness, you just love God all the more.

 

[Cooper]

Jesus Christ had to die for our sins, so we wouldn't die in them. So I would say yes. We all deserve death.

We do deserve death for our iniquities indeed we do. We have much to thank the Lord for, but I cannot help wondering why He came to the Jews first unless it was because they were the most wicked people ever, even killing the prophets and God incarnate.
.

 

[Cooper]

And the one God loves you so much too Cooper. I am not sure if a spirit is in danger if they believe the OT and NT is the same God or not. The Bible just says to believe, confess your sins to live. But I do know once you grasp the idea of how high God's standards are concerning sin, and providing His only Son for forgiveness, you just love God all the more.

You won't find the New Testament God, the giver of life, commanding us to kill people, like the god of Moses did.

I cannot understand how you fail to see the difference.
.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You won't find the New Testament God, the giver of life, commanding us to kill people, like the god of Moses did.

Of course not.

Because that phase of his plan is over.

He is not going to start over and make a nation out of one man then bring that people to destroy other ungodly nations. Now he’s commanding all men to repent believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel to be delivered from the wrath to come on all people and nations that don’t believe. He will be the one doing the killing when the New Testament prophecies come to pass!