Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I said Jesus comes to earth. You are the one saying Jesus does not come to earth. Those verses state what I said.
How can you claim Jesus is not on earth?
Zechariah 14 . . . Fulfilled? or Future?
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How can you claim Jesus is not on earth?
Those verses say nothing about Jesus being on the earth because He’s not on our earth He’s on the new earth
Revelation 20:11-12
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
It’s the new earth because our earth has fled away and the the judgement day happens
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"Those" verses talk about the end of this world, not the start of a new one. Are you intentionally not acknowledging that Jesus has to deal with this earth before the start of the next?
We were talking about a different set of verses. Then you change to another passage. Your interpretation of one has your conclusion getting ahead of yourself. Being on earth in the NHNE does not change one thing about being on earth in the present form. That is like saying you are currently not on earth now, because you will be on earth next year. Next year has nothing to do with this year.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Now you are the one without a single verse to prove your point. I gave you Scripture to prove Jesus is on the earth. You have no way to deny those verses.
Not one of those verses mentioned anything about Jesus being on our earth.
As to prove my point with Jesus coming back with fire on the judgement day see the scriptures see below
Isaiah 66: 15-16
15See, the Lord is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For with fire and with his sword
the Lord will execute judgment on all people,
and many will be those slain by the Lord.
2 Peter 3:8-13
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
Psalm 50:1-4
The Mighty One, God, the Lord,
speaks and summons the earth
from the rising of the sun to where it sets.
2 From Zion, perfect in beauty,
God shines forth.
3 Our God comes
and will not be silent;
a fire devours before him,
and around him a tempest rages.
4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:
Revelation 20:9-12
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not one of these verses shows Jesus is on the New Earth. You are doing a worse job of proving it is the new earth, than denying Jesus will be here for 1,000 years on earth after the Second Coming.
I have never denied Jesus is on the New Earth. That is pointed out by John in Revelation 21. The point is, in Revelation 20, John points out the breadth of the earth is on the earth, prior to the NHNE. On the earth in Revelation 20 is this current earth.
BTW: Jesus coming in fire where every thing is burned up, and the heavens dissolve is the 6th Seal being opened, and Jesus coming to earth at the Second Coming. The rapture of the church happens then as well.
I wasn’t trying to prove Jesus is on the new earth that’s not my point my point was showing the second coming is at the end of our world on the judgement day.
Of course the breadth earth in revelation 20 is our world I didn’t deny that I was saying that Jesus isn’t every mentioned on the earth during the thousand years not even in revelation 20.
How could Jesus coming in fire and everything being burned up and the heavens dissolving be the sixth seal when the kings of the earth hid in caves after? How can they still be alive and hide in caves after they and the caves were burned up?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:"
These ressurected reigned in this city on earth. The subject of being on earth never changed since Revelation 19. After the 1,000 years was the GWT.
The works of earth are burned up, not the humans nor mountains. The 6th Seal is not the 1st Trumpet. God does not burn up everything at the same time. It is a process.
But you said that everything is burned up and so does the bible.
The six seals line up with the events of the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 which was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD Jesus confirmed it. See what the people say in verse 16.
Revelation 6:12-17
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Now look at what Jesus said when He was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem
Luke 23:26-30
26 As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then
“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’
The ones who were raised to life in that text are in heaven John sees a vision of thrones and the dead raised to life in heaven. It mentions nothing of those raised back to life or Jesus on the earth.
We reign with Jesus spiritually now while on earth or in heaven Paul confirms that we reign with Jesus now in life
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I did not say everything. So everything in Jerusalem was burned up, even the Roman armies?
The verse say the "works therefore". All that mankind has built up over the millennia will all be consumed in fire. That everything. The Flood of Noah's day did not dissolve the earth into non existence. It destroyed all the works of man, and humans. Fire can be more specifically applied than water was in the Flood. It does not take miles high fire, like it did miles high water. No one will be on a boat floating on the fire.
Yet God will destroy man's works and the earth will be renewed and new again.
No they are not in heaven. The scene is still on earth since the battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is not in heaven, but on earth. No one goes back to heaven, who came down at the battle of Armageddon. John is still standing on earth in Revelation 20:1. He saw an angel come down from heaven. Earth is made new, but still not the NHNE. And definitely not the here and now. Those beheaded live on earth, because they were resurrected, not glorified. They multiply and have offspring for 1,000 years. They rule over that offspring.
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No the fire had nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem but in contrast to your view Peter says that everything will be destroyed by the fire
2 Peter 3:6-11
6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?
What John sees is in heaven see below
Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That statement is totally... meaningless without actual Scripture to back it up. And Bible Scripture, does NOT back it up.
Per Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10, he said the "day of the Lord" will comes "as a thief in the night", and that is when God's consuming fire will BURN MAN'S WORKS OFF THIS EARTH.
Therefore, it is EASY to know that when Zechariah 14:1-3 speaks of Christ's coming to do battle on that "day of the Lord", it definitely means the LAST DAY of this present world! No need for debate, Scripture interprets Scripture for us.
You continue to have a habit of taking a snippet of what you think I said without actually reading it carefully, and then take it out of context to suit to what you want to impatiently wedge into the discussion, that has not a place.
I was not addressing the term specifically 'the Day of the Lord' Davy. And the verse you are addressing is A DAY of the LORD by Zechariah. It means something totally different in this context of what the prophet was saying. You need to learn context and at least read more verses ....
I was addressing Zechariah in his use of the term 'in that day' over 17 times, that would also include a future day of the Lord.
I was never addressing 2 Peter 3:10 concerning the transformation of this age in into the next age of the new heavens and new earth.
You completely missed what I was actually discussing in Zechariah. Zech 14:1-3 was not about the new heavens and earth as you think it does. You just cannot make, or should I say FORCE every verse you want to fit into your narrative of prophecy. Is does not work that way, and it completely shuts down any follow-on logic and methodical discussion. You just keep changing the channel to static. Zech 14:1-3 concerns God's judgment by his Son of a locality - the city of Jerusalem in this case.
And what you said here...'it is EASY to know that when Zechariah 14:1-3 speaks of Christ's coming to do battle on that "day of the Lord", it definitely means the LAST DAY of this present world! No need for debate, Scripture interprets Scripture for us.'
This is pure ignorance.
Really, you say the 'last day' is about Zech 14:1-3. Do you want to reconsider your statement?! I would...
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
How did they get back to earth to be attacked by Satan and his army? Or did those on earth attack heaven then?
It does not say the earth is destroyed. It says laid bare. All the works of mankind gone, not earth.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You think I'm some kind of fool? I WELL KNOW what YOU were TRYING to address. You were trying... to create A WHOLE DIFFERENT MEANING FOR THE ZECHARIAH "day of the Lord" event, WHEN IT IS THE SAME EVENT AS THE "day of the Lord" that Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter both taught! (1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3:10). BOTH of those examples are about the DAY of Jesus' future return ON that "day of the Lord"!
But with you TRYING to create a FALSE SEPARATION between the Zechariah 14 "day of the Lord" and the "day of the Lord" by Apostles Paul and Peter shows you are PUSHING DECEPTION, ON PURPOSE!
Thus YOU are NOT to be TRUSTED AT ALL WITH God's written Word, and it shows you too ARE A FAKE!
Davy
Well-Known Member
And just to SHOW how Biblically illiterate YOU are... the Zechariah 14 Scripture of events are SELF-EXPLANATORY!
Zech 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV
Zech 14:6-9
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV
The day of Christ's future return is KNOWN ONLY by The Father, and there it is in verse 7. Only at Jesus' future return will God's River be manifest again in the holy land, and there it is in verse 8. Christ Jesus ONLY will be KING over all the earth beginning at His future return, and there it is in verse 9!
So what kind of deceiver would want to try and create confusion on those simple events about the day of Christ's future return and start of His future reign over the whole... earth! Someone who HATES God's Word, of course, would want to deceive with LIES against that Zechariah 14 Chapter! And that is YOU APAK. You have no excuse, and show you are not deceived but well know you are trying to trash The Word of God there!
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