Zechariah 14 . . . Fulfilled? or Future?

[Marty fox]

And how do you know that? On what basis?

Much love!

It started on the day of Pentecost the birth of the Christian church and will not end until the end of our world Jesus promised that the gates of hell will never prevail over it.

What would be the purpose of it? Why would Jesus go back to temple worship and rituals when they all just pointed to him

 

[Marty fox]

No, it's about the second advent, when Jesus returns in judgment and restoration.

We can both make these kinds of statements, but what is the authority?

These are proposition prophetic narratives. This will happen, then that will happen, and so on. My authority is that is says what it says, it means what it says, and what it says harmonizes with the rest of the Bible.

Your assertion appears to be that it doesn't really mean what it says, what it says actually indicate different things, unsaid. On what basis should we say, "It's not REALLY a mountain splitting into two, forming a valley, half moving north, half moving south, through which the people will flee"?

It sounds like you've decided that this all must be related to Jesus' first advent, and now you are determining the real meanings of these words based on that idea.

On what do you base that idea, that this must be "first advent"?

There seems to me to be a lot of Scripture that connects this prophecy to others, which outline the same thing, Jesus coming to rescue His people who are about to be destroyed, then regathering them to their homeland, and judging the gentile nations.

I've selected this one in particular as it describes a narrative in clear terms. So I continue to ask, why shouldn't we accept the clarity of the passage?

Much love!

Lets look on the "in that Day" from Zechariah 12-14

Zec 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations.

This above talks about the new Jerusalem true Israel the church. We know this because it says that Jerusalem will be a removable rock all who try to move it will be hurt thus God protects the church

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

Again "on that day" and on that day they looked on the one that had pierced and mourned. That happed in the first advent.

Zec 13:1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

"on that day" the fountain the Holy Spirit was poured out and cleanses from sin. This happened on the day of Pentecost

The rest of Zec 13 talks about
'on that day" the day the Shepard was struck and the sheep scattered and we know that happened in the first advent

Zec 14 talks about Jerusalem being destroyed in contrast to Jerusalem being an unremovable rock protected by God in chapter 12 this again we know happened just after the fist advent. Other event of this chapter happened in the first advent Jesus standing on the mount of olives and the Holy Spirt the living water going to the world from Jerusalem through the disciples thus these last 3 chapters of Zechariah are about the first advent back in that day

 

[marks]

Lets look on the "in that Day" from Zechariah 12-14

Zec 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations.

This above talks about the new Jerusalem true Israel the church. We know this because it says that Jerusalem will be a removable rock all who try to move it will be hurt thus God protects the church

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

Again "on that day" and on that day they looked on the one that had pierced and mourned. That happed in the first advent.

Zec 13:1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

"on that day" the fountain the Holy Spirit was poured out and cleanses from sin. This happened on the day of Pentecost

The rest of Zec 13 talks about
'on that day" the day the Shepard was struck and the sheep scattered and we know that happened in the first advent

Zec 14 talks about Jerusalem being destroyed in contrast to Jerusalem being an unremovable rock protected by God in chapter 12 this again we know happened just after the fist advent. Other event of this chapter happened in the first advent Jesus standing on the mount of olives and the Holy Spirt the living water going to the world from Jerusalem through the disciples thus these last 3 chapters of Zechariah are about the first advent back in that day

I'm curious . . . If God were to tell us about His coming to this earth, to stand upon it, to split a mountain into two halves, what words would He use would you suppose? And if He said that, would you believe Him?

You wrote,

Again "on that day" and on that day they looked on the one that had pierced and mourned. That happed in the first advent.

Zechariah wrote,

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Was that what happened?

Zechariah 12:3 KJV
3) And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It started on the day of Pentecost the birth of the Christian church and will not end until the end of our world Jesus promised that the gates of hell will never prevail over it.

What would be the purpose of it? Why would Jesus go back to temple worship and rituals when they all just pointed to him

It sounds to me that because you don't see reasons for something, that you think that means it just won't happen, therefore, you have to figure out what these things REALLY mean, and go from there. I don't mean to sound rude, just trying to explain my thoughts.

To answer your question of why, it is in giving to Israel their First Covenant kingdom promise fulfilled on their behalf by Jesus Christ, just as He fulfilled, and will fulfill, His new covenant promises.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We know this because it says that Jerusalem will be a removable rock all who try to move it will be hurt thus God protects the church

Both are true, but both are not the same thing. God will protect me, and God will protect my wife, but I am not my wife.

When Jesus when to the capitol city, didn't He go to Jerusalem? The actual Jerusalem, that He would return to? Did not Jesus pray on the actual mount of olives, that same mount which will split in two when He stands on it again?

I don't understand why you think they mean things other than what they describe.

Much love!

 

[Ziggy]

I'm curious . . . If God were to tell us about His coming to this earth, to stand upon it, to split a mountain into two halves, what words would He use would you suppose? And if He said that, would you believe Him?

Jhn 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I see this as Jesus telling the woman, those that who rely on a certain place of worship, is seperate from how God wants us to worship him.
Here the mountain is split in two. One by sight and one by faith.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

We believe that the law which kept us in bondage was done away when Jesus was crucified.
Do we believe that the prophets which prophesied of Christ ended with his ressurection?

If this is the case, then how can there still be prophets in the NT?
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Are these prophecies new prophecies that are still to come? Or is it a gift to reveal prophecies that were written by the prophets?

What does Jesus mean by "all the prophets and the law prophesied UNTIL John" ?
Just thinking..
Hugs

 

[marks]

I see this as Jesus telling the woman, those that who rely on a certain place of worship, is seperate from how God wants us to worship him.
Here the mountain is split in two. One by sight and one by faith.

How do you see this in relation to the next part . . .

Zechariah 14:4-5 KJV
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Much love!

 

[Ziggy]

Like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, King of Judah:

Amo 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.

Azal = "proximity: he has reserved"
a Benjamite descendant of Saul and Jonathan

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I don't see any other mention of an "earthquake" in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. But I do hear a lot of warnings and angry words coming from the Lord.

It's interesting that the word Azal means that "he has reserved" and also a "Benjamite"
And Paul mentions he is a Benjamite talking about those he has reserved, who have not bowed their knee to the image of Baal. (Idolatry)

I'm just making observations, marks.
Prophecies can be both physically and spiritually true.

Maybe we have to go back to Amos and see what was going on before the earthquake.
Something big was coming...
I see a lot of judgment going on.

Just thinking
Much Love
hugs

 

[marks]

What does Jesus mean by "all the prophets and the law prophesied UNTIL John" ?

John was the last of that series. John was the greatest, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than John.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

I'm curious . . . If God were to tell us about His coming to this earth, to stand upon it, to split a mountain into two halves, what words would He use would you suppose? And if He said that, would you believe Him?

You wrote,

Again "on that day" and on that day they looked on the one that had pierced and mourned. That happed in the first advent.

Zechariah wrote,

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Was that what happened?

Zechariah 12:3 KJV
3) And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

?

Much love!

That was fulfilled in 70AD you see “in that day” were the events of the first century.

When did they look upon Jesus as He was pierced?

 

[Marty fox]

It sounds to me that because you don't see reasons for something, that you think that means it just won't happen, therefore, you have to figure out what these things REALLY mean, and go from there. I don't mean to sound rude, just trying to explain my thoughts.

To answer your question of why, it is in giving to Israel their First Covenant kingdom promise fulfilled on their behalf by Jesus Christ, just as He fulfilled, and will fulfill, His new covenant promises.

Much love!

Jesus did fulfill His new covenant promise Jesus said It is finished when He died on the cross. There’s no more need for rituals that pointed to Jesus the mystery is now revealed

 

[Marty fox]

Both are true, but both are not the same thing. God will protect me, and God will protect my wife, but I am not my wife.

When Jesus when to the capitol city, didn't He go to Jerusalem? The actual Jerusalem, that He would return to? Did not Jesus pray on the actual mount of olives, that same mount which will split in two when He stands on it again?

I don't understand why you think they mean things other than what they describe.

Much love!

Paul and revelation teach us about a new Jerusalem which is greater and better than the earthly Jerusalem. God let earthly Jerusalem and the temple be destroyed for His purpose He was finished with it and now has a new and better Jerusalem which will stand forever and there is no temple in the new Jerusalem because the the Father and the Son are it’s temple

 

[Marty fox]

I'm curious . . . If God were to tell us about His coming to this earth, to stand upon it, to split a mountain into two halves, what words would He use would you suppose? And if He said that, would you believe Him?

You wrote,

Again "on that day" and on that day they looked on the one that had pierced and mourned. That happed in the first advent.

Zechariah wrote,

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV
9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Was that what happened?

Zechariah 12:3 KJV
3) And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

?

Much love!

I believe the words of Jesus over the prophets not because the prophets were ever wrong but because they are often misunderstood.

I believe Jesus words on what happens when He comes back He said that He will come back In glory with His angels and then He would separate and judge the people

 

[Timtofly]

No single verse or chapter in the bible mention Jesus living and ruling on the earth for 1000 years it doesn't exist. If it were true and the bible is literal wouldn't it all be together mentioned at least once?

No single verse or chapter in the Bible declares Jesus will not reign on earth. So we can just assume He can. People will rule and reign with Christ on earth. You can just pretend Jesus is not Christ, or they are on earth ruling and reigning with, but not with.

Revelation 20:4

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city."

Tell me one good reason why these saints are not those ruling with Christ? Does it not say the breadth of the earth? Does it say the "landscape of heaven"? Who do they reign over in heaven? The only place a ruling and reigning has ever been is on earth. Matthew 25:31-32.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

It says right there Jesus comes to earth. Jesus does not "come to heaven". Jesus is currently in heaven. The angels come with Him. How can angels come to heaven, as if they lived on earth? The angels come from heaven to earth. Since Jesus has a glorious throne on earth, then it makes sense the 1,000 years comes next, where they rule and reign with Christ on earth. Why would they rule at a time prior to the Second Coming on earth, when Jesus states there will be a throne on earth? And no one currently lives for 1,000 years. Give me one verse that declares these people ever die. They are resurrected from death. Did you think people just resurrect die, resurrect, and then die over and over again? Is that the symbolic point you are trying to tell us? Currently we have birth and death. Is resurrection and death symbolic of birth and death?

Is there no such thing as a resurrection? The plain reading states, these people were born, had their heads chopped off, were resurrected. Never die again ever, and rule on earth with Christ because that is where Jesus' glorious throne is for 1,000 years. That does not change anything about the here and now. It is something new that can only happen after the Second Coming. No one can see resurrected bodies walking around on earth and reigning for 1,000 years. That is why you all have to change the reading of the text and make it say something totally different.

 

[quietthinker]

Zechariah 14 . . . Fulfilled? or Future?
poorly understood and enthusiastically promoted in that misunderstanding!

 

[Marty fox]

No single verse or chapter in the Bible declares Jesus will not reign on earth. So we can just assume He can. People will rule and reign with Christ on earth. You can just pretend Jesus is not Christ, or they are on earth ruling and reigning with, but not with.

Revelation 20:4

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city."

Tell me one good reason why these saints are not those ruling with Christ? Does it not say the breadth of the earth? Does it say the "landscape of heaven"? Who do they reign over in heaven? The only place a ruling and reigning has ever been is on earth. Matthew 25:31-32.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

It says right there Jesus comes to earth. Jesus does not "come to heaven". Jesus is currently in heaven. The angels come with Him. How can angels come to heaven, as if they lived on earth? The angels come from heaven to earth. Since Jesus has a glorious throne on earth, then it makes sense the 1,000 years comes next, where they rule and reign with Christ on earth. Why would they rule at a time prior to the Second Coming on earth, when Jesus states there will be a throne on earth? And no one currently lives for 1,000 years. Give me one verse that declares these people ever die. They are resurrected from death. Did you think people just resurrect die, resurrect, and then die over and over again? Is that the symbolic point you are trying to tell us? Currently we have birth and death. Is resurrection and death symbolic of birth and death?

Is there no such thing as a resurrection? The plain reading states, these people were born, had their heads chopped off, were resurrected. Never die again ever, and rule on earth with Christ because that is where Jesus' glorious throne is for 1,000 years. That does not change anything about the here and now. It is something new that can only happen after the Second Coming. No one can see resurrected bodies walking around on earth and reigning for 1,000 years. That is why you all have to change the reading of the text and make it say something totally different.

Well you state that you think I believe things which I don’t.

The verse you provided about Jesus coming with His angels states that it is on the judgement day which is what I already said and revelation 20 shows that the judgement day is after the thousand years that’s when Jesus comes back

 

[Timtofly]

Well you state that you think I believe things which I don’t.

The verse you provided about Jesus coming with His angels states that it is on the judgement day which is what I already said and revelation 20 shows that the judgement day is after the thousand years that’s when Jesus comes back

The angels come at the 6th Seal. John uses the symbolism of the stars coming to earth. No judgement day in Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is the Day of the Lord. The whole 1,000 years. Jesus comes at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Jesus comes to earth to gather His Kingdom. Then Jesus rules on earth for 1,000 years. Jesus does not come at the end. Jesus comes at the beginning.

 

[Marty fox]

The angels come at the 6th Seal. John uses the symbolism of the stars coming to earth. No judgement day in Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is the Day of the Lord. The whole 1,000 years. Jesus comes at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Jesus comes to earth to gather His Kingdom. Then Jesus rules on earth for 1,000 years. Jesus does not come at the end. Jesus comes at the beginning.

The bible and Jesus disagrees with you Jesus tells us what happens when He comes again

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 22:11
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done

When Jesus comes age He will judge on the judgement day

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

That is all talking about destruction of Jerusalem … it happened in 70ad. Which established the new covenant.

If you have a Bible search tool program search

“the day” and see what you find in the New Testament.

Zech. 14 coincides with the events of Rev. 16:14 and Rev. 20, so it's rather obvious that everything in Zech. 14 is talking about future events.

 

[Marty fox]

Do you hold to a 1000 year kingdom of Jesus on the earth when He returns?

Much love!

No we are living it now