Will unbelievers never be saved?

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Wrangler

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I have answered your question. You just can't understand my answer. I will try again.

John 3:17
No. You haven't answered my question and it cannot be answered by quoting Scripture because the question is how do you reconcile Scripture verses already on the table.

All mankind is condemned already by the Law
Again, repeating yourself. I already pointed out how "the law" does not pertain to the group under question in this thread.

Consider you are starting off from a false premise. Don't just repeat the false premise! It's OK if you cannot reconcile the 2 verses but it does serve to illustrate that your premise, is indeed, false. I guess we just cannot communicate.

Make a Blessed Day!
 
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FaithWillDo

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Have we ever considered the question, given the immensity of God why is it incumbent upon us to believe he is there?

When we are told, all that exists is proof God exists, so we are without excuse to not believe God is real.

Even if we don't confess with our mouth that we believe God is there, we are told we have proof in all that exists, including us, that he does.

Why would an immense power require our devout attention?
Dear BlessedPeace,
Belief is not just about believing that God exists. Belief is about having the faith to trust God for all our needs, including our salvation.
Joe
 

APAK

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I found this to be a thoughtful and intelligent analysis that deals with the Greek and places the verse in the context of Paul's overall theology: 1 Timothy 4:10 | Salvation By Grace.

One of my frequent responses to these sorts of discussions is, "You're trying to get an awful lot of mileage out of one verse." That mileage always leads to some pet idea that is inconsistent with the overall thrust of what is being said.
Good input....I agree with this reference you cited, in the main...1 Tim 4:10 is not about Universalism or who God decides to save, even if they do not deliberately by choice 'believe' in his Son. It is the 'all' for all types of people of believers only...., and specifically believers from/of all types and places around the globe.

Paul used the word 'all' or transliterated Greek 'pas' in/for a limited capacity several times, as he also used for example when speaking about 'all' things created through the Son. It never means Genesis as most see in this verse without contextual thought, as it means only selective types of things created for the building of the Church Body today.

So there in no Universalism spoken of or hinted at, by Paul in 1 Tim 4:10. Many folks read into it what they wish, without viewing the entire context, as a general rule.
 

APAK

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@Wrangler you know another basic and significant aspect of your OP IMO that still might be missing and I admit I have not looked at all posts yet, is the definition and thought behind the used of belief or believing in the Son...What does that mean when it comes to believing in Christ?

Not to promote or demote Epi's use of the words 'INTO Christ' as I feel it is overkill and 'in' or 'on' Christ is sufficient in translating the Greek Eis/Ice for me.

Although I see merit for its use here in this particular case. It does convey to me a deeper understanding, depth and intensity and knowledge (experiential) with strong faith for the belief in Christ. Not that we have to go anywhere or work into, or to get into, or climb inside Christ's spirit to believe this way. We have arrived already.

Just saying.....
 

Wrangler

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@Wrangler you know another basic and significant aspect of your OP IMO that still might be missing and I admit I have not looked at all posts yet, is the definition and thought behind the used of belief or believing in the Son...What does that mean when it comes to believing in Christ?

Perhaps but such esoteric parsing does not concern me. I’m primarily concerned with billions of good people - based on their deeds in following the law God wrote on their hearts - who do not believe in the son, persuant to Romans 2:6, 14-15 and 1 Tim 4:10.
 

APAK

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I never get in trouble drinking coffee.

Sometimes it’s better to observe and listen to the madness instead of joining it…

I have plenty of coffee and popcorn too…

:watching and waiting:
You still can get into trouble MI...

I still learn in all this 'madness' and I enter the 'ring' quite a bit. I learn through experience, a hands-on person who does not mind getting burnt once in a while like spilling hot coffee on my lap over an emotional penetrating thought, as I wait to load up another quick reply or counter-punch.

Whilst you on the other-hand, can spill your coffee, by just sitting there in the gallery; missing your mouth just by or when you get surprised and distracted by an outburst or punch thrown in this mix of characters on stage......hahaha.
 
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APAK

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I confess this OP is a challenge to our humility. Have we turned our Lord into an IDOL by holding fast to manmade doctrines that cannot withstand scrutiny? Our Lord and Savior is a man, not a doctrinal idol, yes? Most people, including Christians are exceedingly weak in logic. In this thread, I want to examine the often stated claim that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved from Scriptural evidence AND logic.

John 3:16 essentially saves if you believe in Jesus, you will be saved. In other words, it is a guarantee; if you do X, you will be saved. (I know this gnaws at layers of manmade IDOLATRY of it not being by our work that we are saved. This is merely a confusion of "work," in the general sense from "works" in the Biblical sense). But is the converse true?

What is the converse of a statement? When you reverse the subject and object.
TRUE STATEMENT: All square are rectangles.
CONVERSE: All rectangles are squares.
TRUE: All rectangles are NOT squares.​
NOTE: Single negative. 1 "not".​

TRUE STATEMENT: All who believe in Jesus will be saved.
CONVERSE: Those will NOT be saved who do NOT believe?
NOTE: Double negative. 2 "nots."​

I submit the converse is not true, just like with rectangles and squares. Scripture teaches those may be saved who are not believers of Jesus. Romans 2:
v6 (God) will judge everyone according to what they have done.
NOTE: Not judged by what you do NOT believe but what you have done.​
v14-15 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

This is consistent with Jeremiah 31:33, which invites another converse challenge. Just because God said in Jeremiah 31:33 that he will write his law on the hearts of the people of Israel does NOT mean he will NOT write it on the hearts of Gentiles.

Indeed, Romans 2:15 implies that God did write his laws on everyone's heart. Said differently, it is unjust to judge people by a law they were truly ignorant of. This logically follows from Romans 2:6 for one what rational basis could God judge everyone other than from the law he put in their own hearts?

This is ongoing revelation. In Jeremiah, God prophesied some of what he would do for Israel. In Romans, what he did is more fully revealed to apply to everyone.

So, this is the scriptural and logical basis to conclude that unbelievers may also be saved. In defense of the claim that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved (meaning unbelievers will not be saved), here is the challenge. Prove it! What Scripture and logical analysis supersedes what is presented here; what verse says unbelievers will NOT be saved?

Final point. Because we love image bearers of God, we encourage them to seek the guarantee of eternal life rather than rely on what is not guaranteed.
Well now for the OP hit. I disagree with your entire OP, its structure and its strong implication for your readers. As you want brevity I might have to write my response in a few posts. I will just leave you with this: your thinking and conclusion regarding Romans 2:12 -29 or at least verses 12-16 is incorrect, even from a logic perspective. Context is King once again...
 

Wrangler

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In defense of the claim that only those who believe in Jesus will be saved (meaning unbelievers will not be saved), here is the challenge. Prove it! What Scripture and logical analysis supersedes what is presented here

Well now for the OP hit. I disagree with your entire OP, its structure and its strong implication for your readers. As you want brevity I might have to write my response in a few posts. I will just leave you with this: your thinking and conclusion regarding Romans 2:12 -29 or at least verses 12-16 is incorrect, even from a logic perspective. Context is King once again...
Assertion, yes. Proof, no.

I look forward to your brief analysis of Scripture and logic superceding what was presented in the OP. Regarding context; that's why the challenge is there:
I’m primarily concerned with billions of good people - based on their deeds in following the law God wrote on their hearts - who do not believe in the son, persuant to Romans 2:6, 14-15 and 1 Tim 4:10.
To reconcile John 3:18 with Romans 2:6, 14-15 and 1 Tim 4:10.

Here is a context to consider, the slaying of another sacred cow; that reconciling contradictory Scripture stretches what it means to reconcile to straight up eisegesis rationalization. Bishop John Shelby Spong explores this in Why Christianity Must Change or Die from the realization evolving theology - even among Apostolic writers.

The earlier the writing, the more divergant the text is from today's mainstream Christianity. Spong shows the answer of when Jesus became the son of God got earlier with later writings:
  • After the resurrection
  • After the baptism
  • At conception
  • Before Creation
I submit the same applies to the question of this thread. I doubt your claim in post #64 that all does not mean all but a subset of all will not withstand scrutiny but shown to be eisegeis in support of this relatively modern theological idol, e.g., It is the 'all' for all types of people of believers only...., and specifically believers from/of all types and places around the globe; God so loved the world, meaning the world of believers only. But we shall see. ;)
 

APAK

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Assertion, yes. Proof, no.

I look forward to your brief analysis of Scripture and logic superceding what was presented in the OP. Regarding context; that's why the challenge is there:

To reconcile John 3:18 with Romans 2:6, 14-15 and 1 Tim 4:10.

Here is a context to consider, the slaying of another sacred cow; that reconciling contradictory Scripture stretches what it means to reconcile to straight up eisegesis rationalization. Bishop John Shelby Spong explores this in Why Christianity Must Change or Die from the realization evolving theology - even among Apostolic writers.

The earlier the writing, the more divergant the text is from today's mainstream Christianity. Spong shows the answer of when Jesus became the son of God got earlier with later writings:
  • After the resurrection
  • After the baptism
  • At conception
  • Before Creation
I submit the same applies to the question of this thread. I doubt your claim in post #64 that all does not mean all but a subset of all will not withstand scrutiny but shown to be eisegeis in support of this relatively modern theological idol, e.g., It is the 'all' for all types of people of believers only...., and specifically believers from/of all types and places around the globe; God so loved the world, meaning the world of believers only. But we shall see. ;)
So you did read my Post #64. It is credible in how Paul uses 'pas' or 'all' in texts. Ok I will do a commentary on the entire Chapter 2 that is not just relying on this point to show that the proof is already visible in scripture....
 

APAK

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@Wrangler. Let me setup or tee up Romans Chapter 2 by first doing a quick summary of Chapter 1.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Chapter 1 – the power of the gospel, the truth and righteousness of God​

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Paul speaks about the gospel of God, about his Son, as it being spread progressively around the world, even for each new generation. He later speaks about mankind, in general, who lost their way of the truth and the righteousness of God by their own corrupted hearts and minds, and God allowed it to continue, to degrade and run its evil course. To then bring in judgement to mankind. This is the basis and evidence for the judgment of God then and in the ‘future.’

Paul said, the gospel is the very power of God for our salvation. Now its power is known only to those who have faith in it. And therefore the righteousness of God is produced in those of this faith, founded in this faith unto salvation.

We are thus justified or made just by this faith in the gospel of God concerning his Son.

And Paul, because he addresses here his fellow countrymen speaks to the Judahites being first in the urgency of knowing this gospel and non-Jews second.

Now a critical point is mentioned in verse 18. Those that believe not in the truth of the gospel are unrighteous. They believe their own truth not given by God. And his wrath is upon them. And Paul means this to all, to both Jews and non-Jews alike. This point is resounded strongly in Chapter 2.

And Paul continues to say then, all, have no excuse as God has given all the truth and the knowledge to know him. And then by implication his gospel of truth to salvation. They have this God knowledge already in them, or within themselves to know it. All creation of God is visible for all to see and understand. Even his divine nature and the working of his power by his spirit in this world.

And then Paul goes on to say: they squandered their knowledge of the power of God in the world, known within themselves and they began instead to become foolish, to idolize and glorify his creation rather than him. And so God decided to allow them to continue in these selfish and wicked imaginations within their hearts to even corrupt, defile their own physical bodies amongst themselves in acts of depraved sex and rituals. They converted, trashed and corrupted over time the truth about God and his glory in their lives, to become a fable, a legend, a fairy tale, or a lie within their hearts, to appease and please their consciences. Such is still the same today. They were overtaken or possessed by evil and corrupt ways.

Paul then clearly describes the characteristics of fallen mankind that earned them the wrath of God: verses 29-32.

----------------next is Chapter 2 ------------------a little later...busy in other things--------
 
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Wrangler

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Now a critical point is mentioned in verse 18. Those that believe not in the truth of the gospel are unrighteous. They believe their own truth not given by God. And his wrath is upon them. And Paul means this to all, to both Jews and non-Jews alike. This point is resounded strongly in Chapter 2.
Just so I’m clear. You are saying this “all” means “all” but use of the same word in chapter 2 means only believers?
 

APAK

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Just so I’m clear. You are saying this “all” means “all” but use of the same word in chapter 2 means only believers?
I see it might not be clear to you.

What I called 'all' in my summary, as sourced from Paul's Romans 1:18, only applies as a 'limited' in scope 'all' or 'pas.' The ALL of a type of people, as as applied to the ungodly only. So the same 'all' in Chapter 2 is also limited in scope and application...

---I need to give you the next Chapter, two... soon...
 

Wrangler

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What I called 'all' in my summary, as sourced from Paul's Romans 1:18, only applies as a 'limited' in scope 'all' or 'pas.' The ALL of a type of people, as as applied to the ungodly only.
You are really backing yourself into a corner where A is not A; all means some, meaning A is NOT A.

Generally, all has a referent, e.g., one might say "all alligators." In context, it might refer to all alligators present at the last feeding, at the particular zoo or habitat. However, that the context "might" have a limited scope is ambiguous.

I took my wife to the Florida Everglades a few years ago. There was a show. The presenter may have said "all crocodillians" in referring to their general characteristics and even differentiating alligators to crocodiles, both were at the show. So, even in context, "all" may mean "all" with no limiting scope.

It is a difficult standard you set for yourself; to suppose "all" means a subset of all, without a direct referent. Especially in the context of "godly people" specifically includes those unbelievers who have the law on the heart and act in accordance with it. I look forward to your analysis with relish.

1711388567319.png
 

APAK

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You are really backing yourself into a corner where A is not A; all means some, meaning A is NOT A.

Generally, all has a referent, e.g., one might say "all alligators." In context, it might refer to all alligators present at the last feeding, at the particular zoo or habitat. However, that the context "might" have a limited scope is ambiguous.

I took my wife to the Florida Everglades a few years ago. There was a show. The presenter may have said "all crocodillians" in referring to their general characteristics and even differentiating alligators to crocodiles, both were at the show. So, even in context, "all" may mean "all" with no limiting scope.

It is a difficult standard you set for yourself; to suppose "all" means a subset of all, without a direct referent. Especially in the context of "godly people" specifically includes those unbelievers who have the law on the heart and act in accordance with it. I look forward to your analysis with relish.

View attachment 43719
On its surface that is ridiculous thinking. What is truly A? Do you know it in light of the subject? It seems you have drifted completely from the subject at-hand. Paul and thus I do not do logic discrete math in scripture, as this does not characterize all words and expressions correctly, especially when translated for one style of culture and language usage of some of the words in scripture into another..

A => {a1, a2, ...an} a set that belongs to A depending on the subject at hand. It is a variable and not always the same meaning although and still called in this case example, A, from you.

And your crocodile example doers not cut the mustard or make your point either. You are talking apples and oranges and must know this already.

Look I'm not going to wrangle this point. It's what it is, limited in scope on purpose and varies in meaning at times.

And this use of 'pas' is actually not the real rub of your OP according to me.
 

APAK

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@Wrangler well I said I would provide a Romans 2 commentary. I went until verse 16.

And it shows that Paul said in simple terms that what we believe directly is linked and counts for the type of deeds people are judged upon; either acceptance or condemnation. And the unrighteous not in truth of gospel shall be the only ones condemned. Beliefs and actions are not mutually separate. This is the main reason why the OP is flawed imo.

There is no hope for salvation, for the ones with the knowledge of God and his truth obtained in the many forms I would imagine, and chose to ignore it, whether knowing the/a standing law of God or not....and the conscious law infused in all mankind does not count, only for naught as Paul remarks


_____________________________________________________________________________________

Chapter 2 – All Judged by the Son of God – according to truth and righteousness of God​

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Now Paul carries on with the last thought of Chapter 1. That all unrighteous ones cannot judge anyone else because they are condemned already with the same judgment and wrath of God upon them.

Suddenly, Paul makes the critical remark that ‘we’ (his audience, those called to be saints) those who have faith in the gospel, know the judgement of God is of the condemned. The truth will be used against these lost, those who are unrighteous and lack faith in the truth – the gospel.

And then Paul reverts back to the thought in verse 1 and says of the unrighteous, you think you can escape the judgement of God. These are the ones who despise the depth of God’s goodness towards them. And if they knew this fact and believed it in their hearts they would certainly repent of their sins and petition to God. This will be a righteous judgment of God and there is no other, because many chose not to accept the truth.

These hardened their hearts to avoid any type of repentance in truth, and they forgot the judgement of God is sure and established, for them only. And he will judge these unrighteous ones in what they did in their lives, based of course on what they believed, was reflected in their lifestyle, as their life. Not the hiccups and slips that occur from time to time in life count. This is how justice of doing deeds are viewed by God and via his Son.

Then Paul clearly divides mankind into two camps: those righteous knowing and believing the truth, and those unrighteous, never believing in the truth.

Dividing these: To those being saved, as being patient in their lives in their carnal attempt to avoid unrighteous acts, not that they will never do any, and to then continue on, onward, never giving up in doing good righteous deeds, only to seek the glory of their works for God to immortality and eternal life, and then the rest: those who never listened and never accepted the truth for righteousness.

I add in more description for a believer here to account for all types: those who have just begun their holy journey on the path of the Cross in the Kingdom that dwells within them, to the maturing believer who has overcome more unrighteous obstacles deeds along the way. And both gain patience in continuing to do good words for the glory of God.

So this is the judgement of the condemned, and Paul cites the order of condemnation: the Judahite first and then the rest.

Those exempt from judgement are those who continue to do ‘good’ works of the truth, to the Judahite first and then the rest.

So God does not play favorites and therefore does not gauge any level of respect for any human being. We all have the same ‘freedom’ upon God’s calling and desire to believe in the truth - in the gospel.

And to demonstrate this disrespect of God for people, Paul says that those in sin or being still unrighteousness, and not knowing any law of God will still die, as God’s judgement, under this same status. No excuses.

And similarly, Paul says that those in sin or being still unrighteousness knowing any law of God, and under or a part of it, will still die, as God’s judgement, under this same status. No excuses.

Paul says that God justifies (to righteousness) only those that perform God’s law (from the hearts, minds and hands). And I would think this is God’s moral code or laws as Paul further develops this idea.

And he applies it to those ignorant of any law of God and are a law to themselves.

Al creation, humankind and even other creatures of God are given a type of code that limits their actions to sustain their species of good order and conduct. For humans it is a type of basic moral code implanted as part of the image of God, that can be in line with the formal laws given of God, or not.

If those non-Israelites who coincidentally, unwittingly, conform(ed) and obeyed even a part of God’s laws given to the Israelites, and are capable, because God have planted these thoughts in their consciences, to all mankind, they are still not justified to righteousness in knowing the truth – of the Gospel. As verse 14 says, they are still their own judge of these laws to, and for themselves. It is based on what man wants to do with these laws for decision and not dependent on God’s will.

And in verse 15 it stated that this conscious law that arises is decided on their own behalf or for their own benefit and can change according to their own needs at the time as either accusing themselves or denying that they broke any law. So this conscience-driven law does not count for knowing the truth for righteousness and to salvation.

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them

Their unregenerated conscience still cannot be trusted. They are the captains of their conscience - unreliable.

In verse 16, Paul clearly states all inner and outer works of the mind, the heart and the hands shall be revealed - according to truth the gospel.

So God will judge on what one believes in, that are reflective of the type of deeded. And all unrighteous deeds are judged and condemned.

-----------------------------------------
 

Wrangler

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Beliefs and actions are not mutually separate. This is the main reason why the OP is flawed imo.
Appeal to Strawman. I never said anything like this. Not sure why you've gone the route of developing commentaries. Circuitous, at best - the opposite of going for brevity. LOL

It is generally true that people act on their beliefs. What's specifically missing from your assertion is the tie in to those who do not believe or accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior - the point of the OP. The Scriptures quoted in the OP imply those who are not Jesus followers still act on the beliefs God put on their heart AND this action is specifically what they will be judged by - not their choice of belief, on following Jesus, per se.

This brings up another question, can people chose what to believe? For instance, I believe candidate X is the best and someone else believes candidate Y is the best. This seque's into Confirmation Bias once the belief is held. Perhaps that is fodder for another thread.