Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

[Curtis]

There is more than one type of tongue. Paul wrote there are DIVERSITIES of tongues.

The gift of a prophetical tongue is not for everyone.

The ignorance is in not knowing there’s a personal prayer language tongue that is for every believer that is spirit filled, which is why Paul said:
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues,

Jesus:

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

In the NT every time hands were laid on believers to receive the HS they spake with tongues.

Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Act 19:7 There were about twelve men in all.

 

[Curtis]

And some would like to have the gifts of God for their own glory rather than for God's with no understanding or real appreciation for God's will in the matter!

"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." Acts 8:13-23

And how was it obvious when believers were filled with the HS by laying on of hands?

They spoke in tongues.

 

[CharismaticLady]

While I was reading a commentary on 1 John this morning, a sentence jumped out of the page to me, as if the Holy Spirit wanted to bring my attention to it. It was significant seeing that I had been posting a lot on Facebook and these forums concerning the teaching and practices coming out of the Charismatic movement. Here is the sentence:
"It is therefore the duty of a godly teacher, that he may confirm the disciples to faith, to extol the grace of Christ as much as possible, so that we may be satisfied with that and desire nothing more."
This means that if a genuine Holy Spirit teacher is working toward having his listeners increase their faith in Christ by holding up Him as our wonderful Savour as much as he can, then that would satisfy us, and we would not desire all the additions that are seen in some Charismatic meetings.

I see gold dust and jewels raining down as additions that we don't need in order to increase our faith in Christ. It has been proved that two ladies in the Bethel church were employed to put gold glitter into the ventilation system to make it appear that gold dust was raining down. It was a deliberate deception, and this would bring reasonable doubt that other similar manifestations would be very suspect and man orchestrated rather from the Holy Spirit.

Also, physical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, falling backwards, and other uncontrolled behaviour are also additions that we don't need in order to increase faith in Christ. The Word of God says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and that the power of God is into the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. This means that all the physical manifestations going on in some meetings does nothing to increase faith in Christ, but rather distracts and turns people away from Christ and on what is happening to themselves.

Next time you are in a meeting where all these things are going on, take a close look at the leaders and see if they are manifesting the same physical jerking, shaking, falling down, etc. I'll bet you that they will be doing none of those things, while encouraging the rank and file to do them.

Also, do a bit of study concerning how hypnotic suggestion works, and then compare it with things that are happening in the meetings and how the music and actions of the worship leaders are relating to the people. Take a look at examples of pagan ceremonies where people are spaced out in trances, and then look at a typical Hillsong worship time lead by the music and singers and see if you can see anything similar.

Also, have a close look at the book of Acts and see if you can see anything similar to what you may be seeing in the meetings. Are there similarities, or differences?

Also, we can critically examine the preaching and teaching and ask ourselves the question, is the teaching Christ-centred, emphasizing faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross? Or does it ignore Christ completely and concentrate on how God can bless us physically, materially or financially?

The Scripture says that God has given us love, power and a sound mind. This means that we can examine everything that goes on in meetings and look at them with our brain engaged and our eyes open. We can have the courage to examine the ways hypnotic suggestion works with key words and music, and examine the Scriptures to see what actually should happen in a church worship service. When there are unusual events happening in a meeting, we need to be aware that things are not always what they appear to be.

I have a friend here who is 90 years old who spent 30 years in Japan with her husband as missionaries. She has 8 adult children. When this gold dust and teeth phenomenon was happening, she received gold dust on her, but her son and daughter-in-law that are still in Japan both received a gold tooth each that they still have. I'm curious what do you say to that?

 

[Curtis]

One of God's frozen people skating on thin ice!

Not part of the frozen chosen, sorry.

 

[Truman]

A typical Sunday morning at the Brantford Vineyard when it was my turn to lead:
After the team and I had practiced and the soundman had set the levels, the leadership would gather around and pray for me.
I'd get filled to the point of ending up on the floor. Some of the leadership would manifest, some wouldn't. It's like everybody has different flavors of response to the Lord's presence.
Different seasons, perhaps?"
One morning, as I lay on the floor, I recall thinking, "I feel really high!" I did!
Then it was time for the service to start and they lifted me up on my feet. I thought, "I feel really drunk!"
As I walked towards the stage, putting one foot in front of the other, I may have been thinking, "Oh boy!"
As I started singing the first line of the first song, I was aware that I'd never felt more in tune with the Lord, myself, or my team. From time to time I'd glance around so as to be aware of what the Lord was doing in the congregation, but for the most part, I focused on the Lord.
Sometimes, I'd see inside of me, in my spirit, and see a gusher of water flowing through me and to the people. It was amazing, and still is, that God would use someone like me, like that.
Someone once said, "I walked into the auditorium and it was like there was water up to my neck."
Some years later, the Lord said to me, "You've been faithful with little; now I'm going to give you more." I thought, "Great!" A few months later, it was like a bomb went off in my life.
For twenty years, the Lord and I walked through, for the most part, a dark wilderness.
I'd take up my cross whenever He brought something up within me. Last September, He resurrected with me in my heart. He is beaming in my belly! :):):)
Jesus, Yeshua:
"You're in my heart, You're in my soul, you are my prayer as I grow old. You are my lover, You're my best friend. You're in my soul."
Faithful is His name.
Or as our friend Amadeus would say, "
give God the glory!" Amen!. :)

 

[Pathfinder7]

A typical Sunday morning at the Brantford Vineyard when it was my turn to lead:
After the team and I had practiced and the soundman had set the levels, the leadership would gather around and pray for me.
I'd get filled to the point of ending up on the floor. Some of the leadership would manifest, some wouldn't. It's like everybody has different flavors of response to the Lord's presence.
Different seasons, perhaps?"
One morning, as I lay on the floor, I recall thinking, "I feel really high!" I did!
Then it was time for the service to start and they lifted me up on my feet. I thought, "I feel really drunk!"
As I walked towards the stage, putting one foot in front of the other, I may have been thinking, "Oh boy!"
As I started singing the first line of the first song, I was aware that I'd never felt more in tune with the Lord, myself, or my team. From time to time I'd glance around so as to be aware of what the Lord was doing in the congregation, but for the most part, I focused on the Lord.
Sometimes, I'd see inside of me, in my spirit, and see a gusher of water flowing through me and to the people. It was amazing, and still is, that God would use someone like me, like that.
Someone once said, "I walked into the auditorium and it was like there was water up to my neck."
Some years later, the Lord said to me, "You've been faithful with little; now I'm going to give you more." I thought, "Great!" A few months later, it was like a bomb went off in my life.
For twenty years, the Lord and I walked through, for the most part, a dark wilderness.
I'd take up my cross whenever He brought something up within me. Last September, He resurrected with me in my heart. He is beaming in my belly! :):):)
Jesus, Yeshua:
"You're in my heart, You're in my soul, you are my prayer as I grow old. You are my lover, You're my best friend. You're in my soul."
Faithful is His name.
Or as our friend Amadeus would say, "
give God the glory!" Amen!. :)

"..has different flavors of response to the Lord's presence."
----
I was at a conference..some years ago.
During the praise/singing..
- People started to kneel, lying on the floor, etc..
- Including worship leaders.
Music/Singing stopped...
- It lasted about 10 minutes.

 

[Truman]

Silence is worship.
"Be still and know that I am God." Psalm 46:10

 

[Truman]

There is more than one type of tongue. Paul wrote there are DIVERSITIES of tongues.

The gift of a prophetical tongue is not for everyone.

The ignorance is in not knowing there’s a personal prayer language tongue that is for every believer that is spirit filled, which is why Paul said:
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues,

Jesus:

Mar 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

In the NT every time hands were laid on believers to receive the HS they spake with tongues.

Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Act 19:7 There were about twelve men in all.

It is my understanding that the gift of tongues may or may not be for everyone.
I think scripture is ambiguous about this one and that we are not all going to agree on this.
Since we are instructed to keep the bond of the Spirit, I believe that we can disagree here without being disagreeable. :)

 

[Curtis]

It is my understanding that the gift of tongues may or may not be for everyone.
I think scripture is ambiguous about this one and that we are not all going to agree on this.
Since we are instructed to keep the bond of the Spirit, I believe that we can disagree here without being disagreeable. :)

That’s fine - but I quoted Paul wanting everyone in the church at Corinth to speak in tongues, and Jesus saying those who believe will speak in a new tongue...

There are three types of tongues, one is a personal prayer language for all spirit filled believers.

Shalom.

 

[Truman]

I have my personal prayer language and I also have what I believe to be warring tongues.
You seem to believe tongues for 100% of people. I think I want tongues for 100% of people. You may be right. I hope you are. :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

I have my personal prayer language and I also have what I believe to be warring tongues.
You seem to believe tongues for 100% of people. I think I want tongues for 100% of people. You may be right. I hope you are. :)

Yes. There is a difference between the ministry gift of tongues to be used in the church for the strengthening and building up of the body of Christ. That ministry is not for everyone in the same way that not everyone can be a pastor, or a prophet. And the main qualification for ministry in the church is that the person needs to be of the Word and of prayer. That experience and maturity doesn't happen in five minutes. One Puritan divine said that it can take 20 years to preach the perfect sermon, because it can take 20 years to prepare the person.

But the personal prayer language is available to everyone who wants to receive it. The book of Acts show that even total novices received the ability to pray in tongues the moment they received Christ as Saviour.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I have a friend here who is 90 years old who spent 30 years in Japan with her husband as missionaries. She has 8 adult children. When this gold dust and teeth phenomenon was happening, she received gold dust on her, but her son and daughter-in-law that are still in Japan both received a gold tooth each that they still have. I'm curious what do you say to that?

God moves in mysterious ways and when He does something out of the ordinary, lives are changed and people get saved. That is why He does it. I've heard of others receiving gold teeth, so it is certainly possible. But was that gold dust closely examined to confirm it was actual gold dust and not something else coming down from the ventilation system as what happened in the Redding Bethel church?

 

[Truman]

Yes. There is a difference between the ministry gift of tongues to be used in the church for the strengthening and building up of the body of Christ. That ministry is not for everyone in the same way that not everyone can be a pastor, or a prophet. And the main qualification for ministry in the church is that the person needs to be of the Word and of prayer. That experience and maturity doesn't happen in five minutes. One Puritan divine said that it can take 20 years to preach the perfect sermon, because it can take 20 years to prepare the person.

But the personal prayer language is available to everyone who wants to receive it. The book of Acts show that even total novices received the ability to pray in tongues the moment they received Christ as Saviour.

Ministry gift of tongues...what is that?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ministry gift of tongues...what is that?

That's where someone speaks out in tongues during a service and someone else interprets it. Paul taught that this was the only acceptable way of using tongues in a public meeting and there should be no more than three instances of it in a meeting.

 

[Gary Urban]

Ministry gift of tongues...what is that?

I would offer its a little work but I think worth it in the end. Not a salvation issue there is always rom to repent. More of how can we hear and believe.

If a person would go to the foundation of the doctrine as the law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:21 it is found in Isaiah 28. It speaks of those who do hear when he speaks prophecy the tongue of God. . but will not believe (.no faith)They have no interest in the things of God as a law of men

1 Corinthians 14: 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Tongues as prophecy has no place in those who make prophecy to no effect through the oral tradition "I heard it through the grape vine"it is a sign against them not something that supports making senseless sounds and falling back as slain in the Sprit . In that way they make a mockery of the word of prophecy the tongue of God falling back slain in the spirit as if be slain was a positive thing. It is defined the spirit of judgment. I would be careful how we hear. I don’t think it the goal of Christians to mock God with those who do practice it .

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Those who do practice seeking after a sign to wonder, wonder, wonder after will not escape God judgment signified falling backward.

Isaiah 28 :9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.” But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw. Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw. Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.






.

 

[robert derrick]

??? You wait for Him to tell you what to pray? I don't understand.

Feels the desire and need.

Not a regularized thing...

 

[robert derrick]

I remember once when I was traveling alone between Illinois and Arizona and had been having car trouble off and on for months, a strange grinding noise, but my mechanic could never find it as it never happened when he test drove my van. I was driving up a long steep grade, 30 miles outside Oklahoma City on Interstate 40, and all of a sudden there was that grinding sound again coming from underneath of my vehicle, but now louder than ever! I could feel the vibrations with my feet. Instantly I heard God whisper to pray John 15:7. "If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, you may ask what you will and it will be done for you." Ask for a "Ford dealership." So I prayed, Lord I am abiding in You, and Your words do abide in me so I ask for a Ford dealership right now! Just after I crested the hill, there was an off ramp, and a Ford dealership at the bottom of it, out in the middle of nowhere.

Yes, but did they fix your car?

And if they did, when you drove over the next hill, did you turn around to see if it was still there?

I certainly would have...

 

[robert derrick]

And you are entitled to it. :)

I would say many things spiritual etc...just make Christians feel better. I have some myself. Whether they are actually Scriptural or not doesn't really matter, so long as no one is actually hurt in the faith of Jesus by it, including ourselves.

Paul did however exhort believers in public assembly to keep our private feel good spiritual things to themselves. Assembling is not for tongues, but for prophecy, exhortation, ministry of the Scriptures...

I believe I COR 12 ought be more closely studied and recommended for our gathering together.

It's when our private things are allowed to spill over into the public domain, that all sorts of occasion of accusation and mockery is opened up. And of course some have made a whole industry out of it...

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, but did they fix your car?

And if they did, when you drove over the next hill, did you turn around to see if it was still there?

I certainly would have...

Am I casting pearls before swine???

 

[robert derrick]

Am I casting pearls before swine???

Come on. I was just pulling your leg. I didn't say I doubted your experience. And in fact, when I said I would have looked, I meant it. I mean, if they appeared just in time and fixed my care, and then disappeared after that. Now THAT is a tale to be twice told...

I think you need to be a little more like your friend in the photo. A little more chipper. And little less monk.