So, are Daniel 7:25 and Amos 8:11-12 related in prophecy?

[Oseas]

No, no bother--I had already read your exchange. Unfortunately, I would agree not with you, but with the brother. I don't know Parson, but he seems to be a friendly sort, so I wouldn't take what he says as an insult, though I could be wrong. I give others a chance to rib me a bit before I get too angry. Whether we're right or wrong, if we're simply trying to share our honest sentiments, we deserve respect.

I think I know where you get your notion from, that God and the Word are synonymous. And it's certainly true. I just wouldn't characterize it the way you do. And here's why.

When the Scriptures say that the Word with with God, and the Word was God, it is talking specifically about Jesus' preincarnate existence as God. Well, what was Jesus before he became a man? Was he just words on a page, or both words on a page, and God's regular messages sent out into the universe?

I believe it's simpler than this. The Word is the personification of who God is in the sense of how He chooses to express Himself, whether as the Son of Man or as an angel. The Word is always personal, because it expresses a Being. So this Word is unique and not a word on a page. To confuse Deity with material reality is to confuse the Creator with the Creation. But we do know that in a unique sense God did identify with His creation when He revealed Himself as a man. So God can be seen to be a Man, as long as we know He remains the infinite God, as well.

That's why I don't think God can be said to be the Bible. He cannot be the Bible and God simultaneously. If He is the Bible, He ceases to be God. But when He became the Son He revealed Himself to be both Father and Son, in relationship between the infinite God and His revelation as a finite man.

There is a sense in which you might be able to say that God and the *truth* of the Bible are synonymous. The knowledge of God *is,* I think, God. Jesus said, "I am the truth." That is, Jesus was saying that he was the incarnation of the knowledge of God.

But this gets pretty deep for me. I'm just trying to be honest, and suggest that some aspects of what you're saying are true, whereas I don't think it's good to say that God is the Bible. It would confuse people into thinking God is an inanimate object. ;)

First thanks for your reply. Forgive me again, but I would like to say that the discussions with Parson was not about "Word of GOD" specifically. Actually, they were about KJV and my criterion using several biblical versions in my interpretation of Scriptures, as follow:


QUOTE: Yes, King James, but if the translation doesn’t satisfy I compare it with texts from other versions that are available, for example, CJB, NIV, NKJV, to get better understanding of the text, and I can discern if text is in tune or in accordance with the intention of the Spirit that inspired it.
In other words, I know what the Spirit means, and I check whether the text's vocabulary matches the Spirit's intention. In essence, the words may be different, but the meaning has to be that which the Spirit has inspired. The Word is GOD, letter and Spirit. Based in John 1:v.1. GOD is Spirit, as JESUS said : John 4:v.24) QUOTE


Think that Parson did not like of my explanation above so he simply said I mix a bowl of sweet potatoes with Castor Oil. Strange, no? The available versions of the Word of God do not deserve to be treated as a source of things of this nature, except for Cain in his offering to God in the beginning.
I think that the Word of GOD deserved not be taken as source of sweet potatoes and Castor oil. What I know is that the Old Testament and New Testament are two olive tree, and sources of olive oil for the two candlesticks - two Churches - standing before the God of the earth, according Revelation 11:v.3. What you think?

God bless

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, synonyms often have an additional meaning peculiar to them. It really doesn't matter. It's the *context* that determines how the word is used, whether it has to have a peculiar meaning all to itself or not.

For example, compare "rush" and "hurry," two imperatives that both signify to move quickly. "Rush" contains the additional sense of pressure resisting the quickness, whereas "hurry" only conveys the need to be quick." But in context, "rush" can mean the exact same thing as "hurry" and does not have to convey the idea of resistance.

Rush through enemy lines. Resistance in context.
Rush through the store. No resistance in context.

In our context, "perish" and "destroyed" mean exactly the same thing. The context is the same no matter what synonym is being used. No additional connotation need be conveyed by either word.

As I showed the brother from the example in the Olivet Discourse (post #230), the exact same Discourse is conveyed using slightly different words. And that's because there was no concern that using synonyms and paraphrases would alter the essential meaning.

"Frightened" and "alarmed" are both used, and we have no idea which word was originally used by Jesus. Since both words mean the same, it is acceptable to use either word. See Luke 21.9; Matt 24.6; and Mark 13.7.

"Alarmed" can convey the sense of being notified by a security device. But since that is not in context, "alarm" has the same connotation as "to be frightened."

So the knowledge destroyed them? The lack of knowledge caused them to wither away?

 

[Randy Kluth]

First thanks for your reply. Forgive me again, but I would like to say that the discussions with Parson was not about "Word of GOD" specifically. Actually, they were about KJV and my criterion using several biblical versions in my interpretation of Scriptures, as follow:


QUOTE: Yes, King James, but if the translation doesn’t satisfy I compare it with texts from other versions that are available, for example, CJB, NIV, NKJV, to get better understanding of the text, and I can discern if text is in tune or in accordance with the intention of the Spirit that inspired it.
In other words, I know what the Spirit means, and I check whether the text's vocabulary matches the Spirit's intention. In essence, the words may be different, but the meaning has to be that which the Spirit has inspired. The Word is GOD, letter and Spirit. Based in John 1:v.1. GOD is Spirit, as JESUS said : John 4:v.24) QUOTE


Think that Parson did not like of my explanation above so he simply said I mix a bowl of sweet potatoes with Castor Oil. Strange, no? The available versions of the Word of God do not deserve to be treated as a source of things of this nature, except for Cain in his offering to God in the beginning.
I think that the Word of GOD deserved not be taken as source of sweet potatoes and Castor oil. What I know is that the Old Testament and New Testament are two olive tree, and sources of olive oil for the two candlesticks - two Churches - standing before the God of the earth, according Revelation 11:v.3. What you think?
God bless

Here's where I agree with you. To take more versions can only help. To worship a single version as if only it was inspired by God for English-speaking people makes me shake my head. Why did God wait so long for King James to be born? ;)

Who has the best manuscripts? We don't have the original documents so it's a big guess. There were mistakes in all of the manuscripts, as far as I know. 99% of the manuscripts agree with one another. So what's the big deal--a satanist conspiracy when someone tries to update the language?

But some versions may indeed dilute the words so much that some spiritual value is lost. That is something corrupt, for sure. But most of the versions are true to the manuscripts, which again--largely agree. The only way to review is by considering more documents--not less.

I'm no expert, nor even very well educated on this. But if Sinaiticus and Vaticanus showed up, even in rags, I will still consider them, since they're very old. All old manuscripts should be part of our review, I should think?

 

[Randy Kluth]

So the knowledge destroyed them? The lack of knowledge caused them to wither away?

That's what it says, and that's what it means. The answer is yes, knowledge destroyed them. Actually, it was the *lack of knowledge* that destroyed them, or you might call it "false knowledge," lacking real knowledge, that destroyed them, or caused them to wither away.

 

[Timtofly]

That's what it says, and that's what it means. The answer is yes, knowledge destroyed them. Actually, it was the *lack of knowledge* that destroyed them, or you might call it "false knowledge," lacking real knowledge, that destroyed them, or caused them to wither away.

Is that not the point though? It used to be lack of spiritual knowledge. Now God's Word says something totally different. The knowledge of Satan is destroying us.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is that not the point though? It used to be lack of spiritual knowledge. Now God's Word says something totally different. The knowledge of Satan is destroying us.

To "perish" and to "be destroyed" are synonyms. When we turn away from the knowledge of God's will, our ignorance destroys us. We actually believe there is a way other than God's will to achieve success and blessings. In the end, we die.

 

[Timtofly]

To "perish" and to "be destroyed" are synonyms. When we turn away from the knowledge of God's will, our ignorance destroys us. We actually believe there is a way other than God's will to achieve success and blessings. In the end, we die.

Now you are just using ignorance as a synonym of Satan's deception called knowledge. We know too much about the world. That is what is destroying us. Call it fake knowledge call it lack of spiritual knowledge. Satan is filling our minds not emptying them. We know more about what does not exist, than what actually does exist.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Now you are just using ignorance as a synonym of Satan's deception called knowledge. We know too much about the world. That is what is destroying us. Call it fake knowledge call it lack of spiritual knowledge. Satan is filling our minds not emptying them. We know more about what does not exist, than what actually does exist.

I think you're over-reading what I'm saying, assuming there is some kind of conspiracy or word-twisting going on. The Scriptures don't intend to be worshiped for the exact number of letters, the exact words used, how you pronounce the syllables, etc. This isn't Rocket Science.

This is just ordinary Man expressing for or against God's word. Turning away from God's word to our heart--not just misreading Scripture, is what destroys us, because in doing so we live in an imaginary world in which we succeed without God's help. What a joke!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Tim, the knowledge of Satan is the content that fills our minds with imaginary scenarios not inspired nor informed by God's word. It is the thought that we not only can, but *should,* rebel against God as a supposed heavenly dictator.

Lacking the truth of God's Word, that He is good, and wants to bless us as we follow His will, does great harm to us, as it did Satan. It is this lack of the knowledge of God that destroys us, or causes us to "perish."

 

[Oseas]

Greetings, Randy
Thanks for your reply.
See, I am not opening a discussion, but I must here say how I analyze and understand the issues you have exposed from your point of view.

To take more versions can only help. To worship a single version as if only it was inspired by God for English-speaking people makes me shake my head. Why did God wait so long for King James to be born? ;)

Yes, I agree. What must prevail for the believers is 2 Pe.: 1:v.21 that says: The prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. So, the whole Scriptures are prophetic.
Furthermore, JESUS assured his disciples to send the Spirit of Truth:
John 16:v.12 to 14
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his-Rom.8:v.9. And John warned: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, ...1Jonh.2:v.18, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world - 4:v.1.

Who has the best manuscripts? We don't have the original documents so it's a big guess. There were mistakes in all of the manuscripts, as far as I know. 99% of the manuscripts agree with one another. So what's the big deal--a satanist conspiracy when someone tries to update the language?

I do not rule out this hypothesis because the red Dragon has 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a terrible TAIL, and has a monstrous and powerful religious structures in whole earth and in all segments of activities, including in the highest spiritual regions where the God's people is located (Ephesians 1: v.3). There are evangelical sects printing Bible according their satanic doctrines, besides apocrypha Bibles, and millions of people follow them. Our celestial environment is totally mixed with tares or goats, and their presence in our heavenly environment is tremendously complicated and diabolic.

But some versions may indeed dilute the words so much that some spiritual value is lost. That is something corrupt, for sure.

As I said above, our Enemy has a monstrous and powerful religious structures, and gigantic resources of all kind we can imagine to use against God's Truth and against the true Christians. And three unclean spirits like frogs, a satanic trinity - Revelation 16:v.13-16 - , working in all segments of activities of mankind, they support Satan's powerful body in heavenly environment (Ephesians 1:v.3) and on earth. But now, from now on, there will be War against Satan and his devilish structures, in fact Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit and his followers into the hell's fire prepared for them all. In fact, they all will know the wrath of GOD, the Almighty, from now on.

But most of the versions are true to the manuscripts, which again--largely agree. The only way to review is by considering more documents--not less.

I'm no expert, nor even very well educated on this. But if Sinaiticus and Vaticanus showed up, even in rags, I will still consider them, since they're very old. All old manuscripts should be part of our review, I should think?

Okay, the Most High GOD, the Almighty, has previouly determined laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and to bind him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more. This is what matters now, from now on.

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings, Randy
Thanks for your reply.
See, I am not opening a discussion, but I must here say how I analyze and understand the issues you have exposed from your point of view.




Yes, I agree. What must prevail for the believers is 2 Pe.: 1:v.21 that says: The prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. So, the whole Scriptures are prophetic.
Furthermore, JESUS assured his disciples to send the Spirit of Truth:
John 16:v.12 to 14
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his-Rom.8:v.9. And John warned: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, ...1Jonh.2:v.18, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world - 4:v.1.




I do not rule out this hypothesis because the red Dragon has 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a terrible TAIL, and has a monstrous and powerful religious structures in whole earth and in all segments of activities, including in the highest spiritual regions where the God's people is located (Ephesians 1: v.3). There are evangelical sects printing Bible according their satanic doctrines, besides apocrypha Bibles, and millions of people follow them. Our celestial environment is totally mixed with tares or goats, and their presence in our heavenly environment is tremendously complicated and diabolic.



As I said above, our Enemy has a monstrous and powerful religious structures, and gigantic resources of all kind we can imagine to use against God's Truth and against the true Christians. And three unclean spirits like frogs, a satanic trinity - Revelation 16:v.13-16 - , working in all segments of activities of mankind, they support Satan's powerful body in heavenly environment (Ephesians 1:v.3) and on earth. But now, from now on, there will be War against Satan and his devilish structures, in fact Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit and his followers into the hell's fire prepared for them all. In fact, they all will know the wrath of GOD, the Almighty, from now on.




Okay, the Most High GOD, the Almighty, has previouly determined laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and to bind him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more. This is what matters now, from now on.

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords

Clearly, we're on the same side. Keep on making the good confession. And I'll keep on defending the truth, the best I know how.

 

[Oseas]

Clearly, we're on the same side. Keep on making the good confession. And I'll keep on defending the truth, the best I know how.

Yes, thank you.

1 John 5:v.18 - 20

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[The Parson]

Based on the content of your post above that I quoted, do you think my biblical search criteria is really, as Parson said, "like mixing a bowl of sweet potatoes with Castor Oil?

Forgive me if I'm bothering you with my post, or if my question was a nuisance for you.

God bless

My dear, dear brother. Please don't take what I said as an insult. Forgive me please, that my meaning was misconstrued.

 

[Oseas]

My dear, dear brother. Please don't take what I said as an insult. Forgive me please, that my meaning was misconstrued.

At for me, be at peace. Any word does not offend me, I did not take what you said as an insult direct to me. So there is nothing to forgive because you have not insulted me at all, but the Holy Scriptures and its versions. Well, the Word is GOD.

 

[Curtis]

Anyone care to convince a old preacher that these Bible changes aren't really happening???

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out (I distinctly remember vex, and not wear out) the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Amos said: 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, (I also remember it being south, not east) they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

And the lion and lamb controversy, how about that?

Exert From: Dispensational Truth II, Pre-Millennialism, by Clarence Larkin
Originally published: 1918
Chapter 2
Pre-Millennialism

I've got tons more. Just looking for someone to talk me out of it.

Daniel 7:25 is still in the future.

The Antichrist is given power for 42 months, 3.5 years, to give the mark, and make war with, and overcome the saints.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

That’s the second half of the tribulation, aka the great tribulation.

 

[Curtis]

Greetings, Parson.

I think he problem here stems from your 1817 source that you keep quoting. It's corrupted. In the above passage, the word is East in both the LXX and Masoretic.

You'd have to go into more detail on what the Lion and the Lamb controversy is before I could comment.

God bless, and welcome to Christianity Board.

What’s controversial?

His first coming was as the sacrificial lamb, His second coming is as the lion of the tribe of Judah...

 

[Curtis]

.

 

[Curtis]

I'll take a crack at it.
The Antichrist will soon be revealed and is here now. He attacks the saints, persecutes them, kills them. This is the Great Tribulation, a 3 1/2 years period. The Rider (Antichrist) on the White Horse already went out to conquer and has - almost. He was given a crown (coronavirus) and has a bow to shoot with.
As for Amos 8:11, 12, the famine in the land will come when the Church has been raptured and with them, the Holy Spirit (the Restrainer of evil) is taken out of the way. At this time, the Antichrist will be revealed - somebody like Bill Gates for example, the Tech god of this world. Having invested $10 billion in vaccines, believing in Eugenics, depopulation ... well he already started. (I am not absolutely sure about this, but he is suspect). If they haven't already, vaccines will contain nanotechnology, Luciferase, genetic therapy that may cause severe reactions with the next virus similar to auto immune disease syndrome where your own body identifies the virus and attacks itself, sterilization too. All of a sudden, pregnancy will be rare.
We are supposed to have heard immunity by now. And ALL those who tested positive and showed no symptoms should not have to worry nor take the vaccine or wear a mask. The deception and lies surrounding this whole dilemma is diabolical.
Seems like everyone is lining up for their shot - can't wait. They don't even ha e a clue if this works, because it is experimental and lacks the usual Dr. are if testing. But they have been scared to death and need some hope, some protection. Welcome to the new you, a genetically modified organism. Sounds like a Sci-fi movie. It is very clever how Satan was able to get the entire world to comply, under control - willingly.
So maybe two years from now, when the rapture happens and the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, there will be a famine of the Word. God will send out a strong delusion that they will believe the lie. A false prophet assists the Antichrist and people believe him.
Of course the New World Order has been in the plans for quite some time. All the nations had to get on board some how. The Global Warming scare was one way, they got all nations to sign onto that. It is globalism in disguise.

What the heck, I took a crack at it, maybe I'm off my rocker and it's just my imagination ... may be not?

How do pre-tribbers figure that the Holy Spirit in believers is somehow restraining the Antichrist, and is removed from the earth in the rapture?

1. The Holy Spirit is God, if you’re a trinitarian - and God has this characteristic you may have heard of: HES OMNIPRESENT, meaning everywhere present at all times - how then is He ever removed from the earth?

2. John saw in heaven souls of martyrs who were killed during the tribulation. That’s because there will be a tribulation church comprised of those who get saved after the rapture - so the church never leaves the earth, and they’ll have the HS indwelling them also.

The HE who restrains the A/C is never identified in scripture - but since an angel has power to grab Satan and restrain Satan in the bottomless pit for a thousand years, there’s no reason to assume an angel can’t be the restrainer of the A/C now.

Pre-tribbers should drop that simplistic and obviously wrong proof text for a pretrib rapture.

Shalom.

 

[Timtofly]

When did the King James Version change the word firmament to dome in Genesis 1?

BTW, the sky has no curve to it. Science claims the universe is flat. About the only thing they have right.

 

[Curtis]

When did the King James Version change the word firmament to dome in Genesis 1?

BTW, the sky has no curve to it. Science claims the universe is flat. About the only thing they have right.

Astrophysicists say the universe is soccer ball shaped.