Mary as New Eve

[GracePeace]

HOW is that "namecalling"??

You don't know that accusing someone of making everything about sex is essentially namecalling--that it makes me out to be some sort of deviant?

 

[GracePeace]

To be clear, I believe Catholics can know God.
My point isn't "Catholics can't know God".
I don't think we need perfect doctrine before we can know God.
I just reject the Catholic claim of "infallibility" and its various implications.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You don't know that accusing someone of making everything about sex is essentially namecalling--that it makes me out to be some sort of deviant?

I never "called" you anything.

If you can't handle a debate - then MAYBE a debate site is NOT the best place for you to be spending your time . . .

 

[GracePeace]

I never "called" you anything.

If you can't handle a debate - then MAYBE a debate site is NOT the best place for you to be spending your time . . .

1. I cited Scripture to the effect that the Church is Christ's "Eve", and that they "bear children" (spiritually); your objections (since you had nothing substantive to say) were "your misunderstanding begins in your nether regions" "everything is sexual to you".

It appears that YOUR confusion begins in your nether regions . . .

Again - EVERYTHING is sex with you . . .

Your intent was to paint me as some kind of deviant because you had nothing substantive with which to defend your indefensible position.

2. I know you'd love me to leave because you have no answers.

 

[GracePeace]

You objected to the "sexual" aspect of the Adam-Eve/Christ-Church reality.

And THAT is why the comparison of Jesus/Adam and Mary/Eve TRANSCENDS the sexual - just as Christ's bond with His Bride, the Church.

Sex is something WE do in OUR time for procreation. God has NO use for it.

It's NOT about sex.
God has ZERO use for sex as it pertains to His Church.

It appears that YOUR confusion begins in your nether regions . . .

Again - EVERYTHING is sex with you . . .

SERIOUSLY??
Paul was using the comparison with Eve ONLY as an admonition to NOT fall into temptation.

Who are Christ's "offspring"?

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,g
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Don't tell me you're a closet devotee of "The DaVinci Code".
LOL!

The entirety of Scripture is on my side.
Sorry your tradition is bankrupt and indefensible!
Time to move on!
Maybe you should take a hint from the Orthodox--they have married "priests".

 

[BreadOfLife]

1. I cited Scripture to the effect that the Church is Christ's "Eve", and that they "bear children" (spiritually); your objections (since you had nothing substantive to say) were "your misunderstanding begins in your nether regions" "everything is sexual to you".
Your intent was to paint me as some kind of deviant because you had nothing substantive with which to defend your indefensible position.
2. I know you'd love me to leave because you have no answers.

And once AGAIN - I never engaged in "name-calling".
Your falsehoods don't end with your Scriptural blunders . . .

 

[theefaith]

1. All human beings are subordinate to God's Word, "Scripture".
"Scripture", referred to in the NT, was "Old Testament", codified by Ezra, et al.
The Church had nothing to do with those writings.

2. The fact that a bunch of self-appointed men canonized the New Testament writings--where is the book of Enoch, cited in Jude, or the writing, perhaps a midrash, "the Rock that followed them was Christ" (cited in 1 Corinthians 10)?--is the reason I do not take it the way you do.

Christ founded the church on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 Eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23

but tell why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses in matt 23?

just another bunch of men!

btw it was men who wrote the Bible, and the Bible does not say what is and what is not the bible

 

[BreadOfLife]

You disproved that Christ was New Adam?

Nope - not at ALL.
Never made that claim.

My point is that YOU expect all NT Fulfillments to be an exact replica of their OT Type.
This doesn't happen ANYWHERE in Scripture. At best - it is usually figurative and symbolic fulfillment.
Adam and Jesus
The Flood and the Waters of Baptism
Melkisedek and Jesus
Moses and Jesus
The Ark and Mary
Eliakim and Peter

NONE of these are "exact" comparisons - and therein lies your confusion.

 

[GracePeace]

And once AGAIN - I never engaged in "name-calling".
Your falsehoods don't end with your Scriptural blunders . . .

1. Attack my arguments, not me : show how I mishandled Scripture, do not accuse me of deviancy.

2. Now, again, who are Christ's offspring?

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you have zero answers to the Scriptures I presented correct?

You have to resort to a highly symbolic book to establish your nonsense.

NOPE.
Just showing you the mindset of the writer of BOTH Books.

John was Mary's guardian after Jesus died (John 19:27).
It is only fitting that John would have more of an insight into WHO she was in Biblical prophecy.

The Bible is not the "Wild West" where everybody gets to make up their own "truth".
It is very ordered and precise - just as GOD is . . .

 

[GracePeace]

Christ founded the church on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 Eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23

but tell why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses in matt 23?

just another bunch of men!

btw it was men who wrote the Bible, and the Bible does not say what is and what is not the bible

Answer to all of the Scripture-based answers already provided you.

I'll bring some here for you again:

Jesus is the fulfillment of the "Adam" type (as taught in Romans 5 and elsewhere), so the New Eve must be the Church which is "Christ's body" and "Christ's Bride", just as Eve was Adam's body and bride. Not coincidentally, 2 Corinthians 11:3 explicitly teaches the Church corresponds to Eve.
Ipso facto, Mary is not New Eve. The Roman Catholics have erred.

God's Word? You mean this Word which you reject?

Adam was the first man of the whole human race.
Adam was given a bride made from his own body--her name was Eve.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Adam type--head of a new race Romans 5:14.
Christ is like another Adam, but spiritual 1 Corinthians 15:45.
Christ is given a bride, which is His own body Ephesians 5:21-33--she must be His "Eve".

Paul explicitly teaches the Church corresponds to Eve 2 Corinthians 11:3.

No answers from your side.

You objected to the "sexual" aspect of the Adam-Eve/Christ-Church reality.

Who are Christ's "offspring"?

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,g
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Don't tell me you're a closet devotee of "The DaVinci Code".
LOL!

The entirety of Scripture is on my side.
Sorry your tradition is bankrupt and indefensible!
Time to move on!
Maybe you should take a hint from the Orthodox--they have married "priests".

You're welcome.

 

[GracePeace]

Nope - not at ALL.
Never made that claim.

My point is that YOU expect all NT Fulfillments to be an exact replica of their OT Type.
This doesn't happen ANYWHERE in Scripture. At best - it is usually figurative and symbolic fulfillment.
Adam and Jesus
The Flood and the Waters of Baptism
Melkisedek and Jesus
Moses and Jesus
The Ark and Mary
Eliakim and Peter

NONE of these are "exact" comparisons - and therein lies your confusion.

Paul didn't think so--he said the Church corresponded to Eve.
Oops!

 

[BreadOfLife]

1. Attack my arguments, not me : show how I mishandled Scripture, do not accuse me of deviancy.

2. Now, again, who are Christ's offspring?

READ my last post #68, where I explained to you about Type and Fulfillment.
Then - rethink your question.

 

[GracePeace]

READ my last post #68, where I explained to you about Type and Fulfillment.
Then - rethink your question.

The arguments from my side is solid--the proof is you flee in fear rather than face them.

 

[GracePeace]

John was Mary's guardian after Jesus died (John 19:27).
It is only fitting that John would have more of an insight into WHO she was in Biblical prophecy.

Why is the fact John obtained Mary something outstanding or significant to you? It's just Christ's teaching in action.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

John followed Christ, and so obtained mothers.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why is the fact John obtained Mary something outstanding or significant to you? It's just Christ's teaching in action.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

John followed Christ, and so obtained mothers.

THANK YOU.

This is a PERFECT example of your Scriptural confusion - and the reason why I said that the Bible is NOT the "Wild West".
Matt. 19:29 has absolutely NOTHING to do with John's duty as Mary's caretaker, in context.

John was to take care of her for the REST of her life (John 19:17).
If he had left her - he would have violated a promise to God.

Your understanding of Scripture is extremely limited - to say the least . . .

 

[GracePeace]

THANK YOU.

This is a PERFECT example of your Scriptural confusion - and the reason why I said that the Bible is NOT the "Wild West".
Matt. 19:29 has absolutely NOTHING to do with John's duty as Mary's caretaker, in context.

John was to take care of her for the REST of her life (John 19:17).
If he had left her - he would have violated a promise to God.

Your understanding of Scripture is extremely limited - to say the least . . .

Anyway, back to the topic...

You objected to the "sexual" aspect of the Adam-Eve/Christ-Church reality.

Who are Christ's "offspring"?

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,g
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Don't tell me you're a closet devotee of "The DaVinci Code".
LOL!

The entirety of Scripture is on my side.
Sorry your tradition is bankrupt and indefensible!
Time to move on!
Maybe you should take a hint from the Orthodox--they have married "priests".
You're welcome.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Anyway, back to the topic...

You objected to the "sexual" aspect of the Adam-Eve/Christ-Church reality.

Who are Christ's "offspring"?

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,g
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Don't tell me you're a closet devotee of "The DaVinci Code".
LOL!

The entirety of Scripture is on my side.
Sorry your tradition is bankrupt and indefensible!
Time to move on!
Maybe you should take a hint from the Orthodox--they have married "priests".
You're welcome.

And once again, I remind you of the fact that OT Type and NT Fulfillment are never identical situations. I even gave you several examples back in post #68 to illustrate this fact.
Some are closer than others - bot NONE is exact.

By the reckless and immature tone of your posts - my guess is that you're quite young. Do yourself a favor and STUDY the Scriptures before making such ignorant claims.
Give yourself some time to grow in the Word - and wisdom will follow . . ..

 

[BreadOfLife]

Paul said the Church corresponded to Eve.

ONLY as it pertains to temptation to sin.
Read it again . . .

2 Cor. 11:3
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Stop embarrassing yourself, already . . .

 

[GracePeace]

ONLY as it pertains to temptation to sin.
Read it again . . .

2 Cor. 11:3
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Stop embarrassing yourself, already . . .

"...just as Eve... so you..."

If there were no other supporting evidence, you might be able to deceive someone else, but with the wealth of evidence richly supplied to us both I cannot be moved from my position.

Again :
Eve, Adams' bride, was made of Adam's own body Genesis 2:23.
Christ is the New Adam Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:45.
The Church, Christ's bride, is Christ's own body Ephesians 5:23.
Conclusion : the Church is the New Eve of the New Adam--Mary is not.

Paul, not coincidentally, taught the Church corresponds to Eve 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Who are Christ's "offspring" Isaiah 53:10--they're the ones Gospel workers "give birth" to Galatians 4:19 right?

The Roman Catholic Church is proven fallible.
Get over it. Most of the world already has.