Who Is Jesus?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

KingdomCome

New Member
Sep 13, 2010
95
2
0

It amazes me how some folks can't get the perfectly clear meaning of Jn 1. The Word was God and the Word became flesh. It has to be demonic powers clouding their minds.


Yes, isn't it something! Christ Jesus "is" the "beginning" and the Word was "in" the "beginning" and the Word was God.

And, isn't it amazing that Christ Jesus said:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Isn't it amazing that God is Spirit and Life:

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Isn't it something that Christ Jesus is the beginning and the Word of God was and is in Christ Jesus?

I am amazed...

Blessings
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because He emptied Himself of His Godly attributes.

Though Jesus "was existing in God's form....he emptied himself and took a slave's form came to be in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:6, 7), that did not change his knowledge. Jesus lack of knowledge concerning the exact time when the great tribulation would begin and as to when the kingdom was to be restored, certainly dictates that Jesus does not "know all things", and thus is, as he himself told Nicodemus, the "only-begotten Son of God", not God.(John 3:16, 18)

You just admitted that Jesus is God:

You also have shown yourself visibly dishonest by placing the word "Agreed" as if I was agreeing with you that Jesus is God, instead of putting all the information to which I agreed, which is "You certainly have a different savior than I do. One of us is going to hell." You are not really searching for the truth, just being dishonest in trying to prop up the trinity doctrine.

This is one reason why the churches have been deemed worthy of destruction, as part of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion (Rev 18:8), at the hands of the political elements in the near future.(Rev 17:16, 17), for they are connivingly dishonest, as well blatantly immoral, changing words and phrases in manuscripts to seemingly provide support for the trinity, such as the dishonest alteration of 1 Timothy 3:16 from "he who" to an abbreviation for "God". Or the dishonest addition of the words "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" to 1 John 5:7(King James Bible) to give supposed strength to the trinity.

You have proved who you really are, dishonest, in order to promote the defaming doctrines and traditions of the churches.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
it could be that, or it could be because many scholars have rendered it according to rule of koine grammar

1808 “and the word was a god”
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864 “and a god was the Word”
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935 “and the Word was divine” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz,Göttingen, Germany.

1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Johannes Schneider,Berlin.

1979 “and a god was the Logos”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.


I dont know if you can get your head around this, but if you know anything about koine greek, you would know why the above translators render the verse this way. In the verse, the Greek word θεός (the‧os′) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. You must take not of that fact because the Logos in John 1:1 is a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding a verb.

When there is such a noun, translators insert a definite article. Take the following verses Mark 6:49 'a ghost'; Mark 11:32 'a prophet'; John 4:19 'a prophet'; John 6:70 'a devil'; John 8:44; 9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6 as examples. In all these verses translators inserted the indefinite article “a” before the predicate noun in order to bring out the quality or characteristic of the subject. That is what they do throughout the new testament, but many choose not to follow that rule in John 1:1.

There is only one reason why they do not follow that rule in John 1:1 Shame on them!

Pegg,

You meant to say that "translators insert an indefinite article", such as "a", when not preceded by a definite article (when it is anarthrous or "without an article") such as the Greek words "ho" or "ton", both being rendered as "the". At John 1:1, 2, the definite article is placed before the word "God" the first and third times, but not before the second time, and thus causing it to be rightly rendered as "and a god was the Word" , for no definite article was placed before "god", rendering it indefinite.

Two examples of this, where the word "god" is used but not preceded by a definite article, and thus rendered as indefinite is Acts 12:22 and 28:6.
 

brionne

Active Member
May 31, 2010
830
130
43
Australia
Pegg,

You meant to say that "translators insert an indefinite article", such as "a", when not preceded by a definite article (when it is anarthrous or "without an article") such as the Greek words "ho" or "ton", both being rendered as "the". At John 1:1, 2, the definite article is placed before the word "God" the first and third times, but not before the second time, and thus causing it to be rightly rendered as "and a god was the Word" , for no definite article was placed before "god", rendering it indefinite.

Two examples of this, where the word "god" is used but not preceded by a definite article, and thus rendered as indefinite is Acts 12:22 and 28:6.

yes, thankyou for picking that up... "a" is the 'indefinite article' and its significance is that it points to a 'quality' about someone NOT a personal identity
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
it could be that, or it could be because many scholars have rendered it according to rule of koine grammar

1808 “and the word was a god”
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864 “and a god was the Word”
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935 “and the Word was divine” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz,Göttingen, Germany.

1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Johannes Schneider,Berlin.

1979 “and a god was the Logos”
Das Evangelium nach Johannes,by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.


I dont know if you can get your head around this, but if you know anything about koine greek, you would know why the above translators render the verse this way. In the verse, the Greek word θεός (the‧os′) is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. You must take not of that fact because the Logos in John 1:1 is a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding a verb.

When there is such a noun, translators insert a definite article. Take the following verses Mark 6:49 'a ghost'; Mark 11:32 'a prophet'; John 4:19 'a prophet'; John 6:70 'a devil'; John 8:44; 9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6 as examples. In all these verses translators inserted the indefinite article “a” before the predicate noun in order to bring out the quality or characteristic of the subject. That is what they do throughout the new testament, but many choose not to follow that rule in John 1:1.

There is only one reason why they do not follow that rule in John 1:1 Shame on them!
Jehovah's Witness poison.



Though Jesus "was existing in God's form....he emptied himself and took a slave's form came to be in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:6, 7), that did not change his knowledge. Jesus lack of knowledge concerning the exact time when the great tribulation would begin and as to when the kingdom was to be restored, certainly dictates that Jesus does not "know all things", and thus is, as he himself told Nicodemus, the "only-begotten Son of God", not God.(John 3:16, 18)
Peter studied under Jesus for years. He believed that Jesus knows all things. Should we believe Peter or you?
You also have shown yourself visibly dishonest by placing the word "Agreed" as if I was agreeing with you that Jesus is God, instead of putting all the information to which I agreed, which is "You certainly have a different savior than I do. One of us is going to hell." You are not really searching for the truth, just being dishonest in trying to prop up the trinity doctrine.
Jer 17: 10 isn't speaking of God? Surely you jest.

Jeremiah 17:10 (ESV)
[sup]10 [/sup]“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
This is one reason why the churches have been deemed worthy of destruction, as part of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion (Rev 18:8), at the hands of the political elements in the near future.(Rev 17:16, 17), for they are connivingly dishonest, as well blatantly immoral, changing words and phrases in manuscripts to seemingly provide support for the trinity, such as the dishonest alteration of 1 Timothy 3:16 from "he who" to an abbreviation for "God". Or the dishonest addition of the words "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" to 1 John 5:7(King James Bible) to give supposed strength to the trinity.

You have proved who you really are, dishonest, in order to promote the defaming doctrines and traditions of the churches.
And you have proven that you are just another JW. Do you deny Hell also?



John 1:1 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (GW)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (AMP)
[sup]1 [/sup]IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

John 1:1 (NASB)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (NIV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (MontgomeryNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was face to face with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (MaceNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

John 1:1 (NLT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WesleyNT)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (Darby)
[sup]1 [/sup]In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (KJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (WEY)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 (ASV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Care to try again JW's?
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Though Jesus "was existing in God's form....he emptied himself and took a slave's form came to be in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:6, 7), that did not change his knowledge. Jesus lack of knowledge concerning the exact time when the great tribulation would begin and as to when the kingdom was to be restored, certainly dictates that Jesus does not "know all things", and thus is, as he himself told Nicodemus, the "only-begotten Son of God", not God.(John 3:16, 18)
John 21:17 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.”

You also have shown yourself visibly dishonest by placing the word "Agreed" as if I was agreeing with you that Jesus is God, instead of putting all the information to which I agreed, which is "You certainly have a different savior than I do. One of us is going to hell." You are not really searching for the truth, just being dishonest in trying to prop up the trinity doctrine.

What is more important than avoiding Hell?
This is one reason why the churches have been deemed worthy of destruction, as part of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion (Rev 18:8), at the hands of the political elements in the near future.(Rev 17:16, 17), for they are connivingly dishonest, as well blatantly immoral, changing words and phrases in manuscripts to seemingly provide support for the trinity, such as the dishonest alteration of 1 Timothy 3:16 from "he who" to an abbreviation for "God". Or the dishonest addition of the words "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" to 1 John 5:7(King James Bible) to give supposed strength to the trinity.
Which "churches" are you referring to as "deemed worthy of destruction", "connivingly dishonest", "blatantly immoral", "changing words and phrases in manuscripts"??? Oh I see what you're saying, those who believe in Jesus/God.
You have proved who you really are, dishonest, in order to promote the defaming doctrines and traditions of the churches.
And you have proved that you are in the same sinking boat as the JW's.

 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
Hello there! Well its the main reason why I logged on todday, Its something thats been hammering at the back of my mind, that I dont really understand, that I dont really associate him with my troubles or joys , that I dont view him the same way as I view God or the holy spirit. There's something not right with that, since I call myself a Christian and I feel I am a Christian.

There are so many names, the Lord, the Messiah, the Son. He is all those and more? He is God's only begotten son? What does begotten really mean in that context? After all arent I his child?

I view God, as God and most definitely to myself ,a Father. Maybe thats where im getting baffled, because im human , and so fixated with the whole Father concept. So who is? Jesus is God?Saying that confuses me. Jesus is my Saviour? Yes i believe he died on the cross for us. I accept that, but im sure that not all there is to it,is it? I pray to God and only to God so very openly, i've never done anything else. What am I supposed to do with my belief in Jesus?Im not processing something, please help to simply this.

Who is Jesus to you? How do you apply this to your spirituality?

Jesus is the one and only God, the Father 1Co_8:6. He created us ( Joh 1:3) and came to earth in a body of flesh to save us Luke 1:35.
Many people have attempted to explain Jesus and understand him. The only way that we can get a true picture of Jesus is to rely on the Bible and the Bible alone. The conflict surrounding understanding Jesus, is his dual nature. By this we are referring to the fact that he was both God and man. This dual nature is something we cannot fully comprehend. All we know is that it happened, and we can see the evidence of it. The Scriptures state this: 1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. The mystery is not how three persons can be one God. That is completely man-made. The mystery is how the unmeasureable, immutable, unfathomable God manifest himself in the flesh. When we read about Jesus, we find that he either acts as a man by sleeping, etc, and talking as a man (Joh 14:21), or he acts as God by miracles and forgiving sins (Joh_8:58), and talking as God (Joh_8:58 . Whenever you read about something JESUS did, ask yourself, is he acting/talking as God, or man? Asking this question should clear up any difficulties in understanding Jesus.


Who is Jesus according to the Scriptures:
Jesus is the Father: Isaiah 9:6, John 14:9, John 10:30
Jesus is the Son: Luke 1:35
Jesus is the Holy Ghost: Joh_14:26, Who makes intercession? heb 7:25 and 4:15 says jesus, John 14:16 says the Holy Ghost. There are many more examples, if you want more, just let me know. Interestingly, Jesus didn't just say the holy ghost would be in his name, he said it would be him. Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. This is a wonderful example of the dual nature of Jesus. In verse seventeen he is speaking as a man. In verse eighteen, however, he suddenly switches and talks as God, henceforth the first person pronouns.

Begotten in the context to which you mentioned, is referring to Jesus' humanity. Whenever Son is mentioned, it is referring to the human manifestation of God. The Son is just the humanity of Jesus. Therefore, as all flesh must be born, the Son was begotten, or born. The Son did not pre-exist, and is not a separate individual, it is merely the body of flesh. Just as your body is not actually the real you, the real you is your soul, the Son is just the body. Inside the Son was God. Yes, you are his son, because Jesus is God, the self-existent one. He came in a body of Flesh. Yes, Jesus is the man who walked on Earth, but at the same time he was also the spirit that filled the world.


I sympathise with your difficulties when praying. In simple terms, when you pray to Jesus, you are praying to God.


 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is the one and only God, the Father 1Co_8:6. He created us ( Joh 1:3) and came to earth in a body of flesh to save us Luke 1:35.
Many people have attempted to explain Jesus and understand him. The only way that we can get a true picture of Jesus is to rely on the Bible and the Bible alone. The conflict surrounding understanding Jesus, is his dual nature. By this we are referring to the fact that he was both God and man. This dual nature is something we cannot fully comprehend. All we know is that it happened, and we can see the evidence of it. The Scriptures state this: 1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. The mystery is not how three persons can be one God. That is completely man-made. The mystery is how the unmeasureable, immutable, unfathomable God manifest himself in the flesh. When we read about Jesus, we find that he either acts as a man by sleeping, etc, and talking as a man (Joh 14:21), or he acts as God by miracles and forgiving sins (Joh_8:58), and talking as God (Joh_8:58 . Whenever you read about something JESUS did, ask yourself, is he acting/talking as God, or man? Asking this question should clear up any difficulties in understanding Jesus.


Who is Jesus according to the Scriptures:
Jesus is the Father: Isaiah 9:6, John 14:9, John 10:30
Jesus is the Son: Luke 1:35
Jesus is the Holy Ghost: Joh_14:26, Who makes intercession? heb 7:25 and 4:15 says jesus, John 14:16 says the Holy Ghost. There are many more examples, if you want more, just let me know. Interestingly, Jesus didn't just say the holy ghost would be in his name, he said it would be him. Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. This is a wonderful example of the dual nature of Jesus. In verse seventeen he is speaking as a man. In verse eighteen, however, he suddenly switches and talks as God, henceforth the first person pronouns.

Begotten in the context to which you mentioned, is referring to Jesus' humanity. Whenever Son is mentioned, it is referring to the human manifestation of God. The Son is just the humanity of Jesus. Therefore, as all flesh must be born, the Son was begotten, or born. The Son did not pre-exist, and is not a separate individual, it is merely the body of flesh. Just as your body is not actually the real you, the real you is your soul, the Son is just the body. Inside the Son was God. Yes, you are his son, because Jesus is God, the self-existent one. He came in a body of Flesh. Yes, Jesus is the man who walked on Earth, but at the same time he was also the spirit that filled the world.


I sympathise with your difficulties when praying. In simple terms, when you pray to Jesus, you are praying to God.

The apostle Paul did not write that "Jesus is the one and only God, the Father" at 1 Corinthians 8:6, but that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Cor 8:6, King James Bible) Thus, Paul clearly distinguished "one God, the Father" (“One God.” Greek, heis The·os´; Latin, u´nus De´us; J18,22[Hebrew], ’Elo·him´ ’e·chadh´) and "one Lord Jesus Christ." At Malachi 2:10, the prophet Malachi told the Israelites: "Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? " Hence, God is the "one father that all of us have", whereas Jesus is not God, but the "one Lord".

That Jesus is not the Father is evident from Jesus words to the Jews: "Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father."(John 6:46) The apostle John wrote about 65 years after Jesus death: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."(John 1:18) Also, "at no time has anyone beheld God."(1 John 4:12) Hence, God has never been seen by humans, except Jesus Christ, who "explained him" to honest-hearted ones on the earth, and who corresponded to Adam in perfection before his deflection.

Paul wrote to Timothy, that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."(1 Tim 2:5, 6, “Corresponding ransom.” Greek, an·ti´ly·tron ) Thence, Jesus serves as "mediator between God and men", and is not God. When on earth, Jesus did not have "dual nature", as if he "fully God and fully man". Rather, he "emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men."(Phil 2:7) Jesus was now "fully man" only, having left his heavenly position with his Father and "humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake."(Phil 2:8)

At John 1:18, Jesus is called "the only-begotten god"("the only-begotten god", Papyrus Bodmer 2 [P66], Papyrus Bodmer 14, 15 [P75], both of about 200 C.E., oldest known Greek manuscripts of the book of John) and is thus godlike in characteristics, for he is Michael the Archangel that fought with Satan and his demons at Revelation 12:7-9, casting them out of the heavenly realm and down to the earth.

And of the word "begotten", the dictionary says: "past participle of beget" or to "1. father: to be the father of a child (archaic), 2. cause: to be the cause of something."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) Hence, Jesus was "begotten " or fathered, having a beginning as with all children. Jesus himself says that he is "the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14) Jesus is unique, for he is the "only-begotten Son of God" or the only son directly created by God himself.

"Only-begotten" is derived from the Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´ and is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents. The King James Bible does not accurately bring this out, for at Luke 7:12, it says of the son of the widow of Nain, that "there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow." The account does not say "only son of his mother", but that "there was a dead man being carried out, the only-begotten son of his mother."(New World Translation)

The Greek word for "only" is monon, whereas the Greek word for "only-begotten" is mo·no·ge·nes´, which is used at Luke 7:12 instead of monon. At John 3:16, Jesus used the Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´, and is thus "the only member of a kin or kind." He is a "single of its kind" in his being created directly by God. Hence, through Jesus "all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth."(Col 1:16) Furthermore, "he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist."(Col 1:17)

To show unscrupulousness of individuals, in order to prop up the trinity doctrine, the King James Bible reads of Acts 7:59: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." However, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament makes this honest admission: “The word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient [manuscripts] or versions.” How did the word “God” come to be inserted into that verse? Scholar Abiel Abbot Livermore called this “an instance of the sectarian biases of the translators.” Most modern translations, therefore, eliminate this spurious reference to God.

Of 1 Timothy 3:16, it is readily known among scholars that the word "God" is not there, but the Greek word hos (OC in Greek letterng) was altered in the Alexandrian manuscrpt (fifth century C.E.) by someone into a contraction for "God" (ΘC ), by a single dash through the word. One of the first persons to discover tampering with 1 Timothy 3:16 was John James Wetstein (1693-1754). Benjamin Wilson, in the Emphatic Diaglott of 1864, wrote that "nearly all the ancient MSS.(manuscripts), and all the versions have "He who," instead of "God," in this passage."

Until recent years this scripture, also, was much quoted in support of the Trinity teaching, but most modern versions have now substituted “he” for “God”; the Catholic Jerusalem Bible even adds a footnote: “He, i.e. Christ." The New King James Bible (1994) has the word "God" within 1 Timothy 3:16, but says in it's centernotes: "NU who", with the letters NU meaning "the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (N) and the United Bible Societies third edition (U)." Thus, 1 Timothy 3:16 accurately reads as "he who was manifested in the flesh", speaking of Jesus Christ and not God.

Most never do any kind of critical or analytical research regarding the Bible, in order to find for themselves what is true and accurate. Instead, most just accept without question what has been passed down through the centuries on various doctrines by the churches of Christendom, that which is "orthodox". Jesus said to "keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you."(Matt 7:7)
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
The apostle Paul did not write that "Jesus is the one and only God, the Father" at 1 Corinthians 8:6, but that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Cor 8:6, King James Bible) Thus, Paul clearly distinguished "one God, the Father" (“One God.” Greek, heis The·os´; Latin, u´nus De´us; J18,22[Hebrew], ’Elo·him´ ’e·chadh´) and "one Lord Jesus Christ." At Malachi 2:10, the prophet Malachi told the Israelites: "Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? " Hence, God is the "one father that all of us have", whereas Jesus is not God, but the "one Lord".

Are you saying that Jesus IS NOT God?! According to what you have said, Jesus is not God! In fact, the Trinity degrades Jesus! It makes him just 1/3 of the Godhead! According to the Scriptures, the Godhead is in Jesus! Col_2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Godhead means deity! That means that every bit of God was in Jesus! The Trinity just makes him part of the Godhead. Jesus is not all God anymore! Either make him God of all, or don't make him God at all! I pray that you will see this serious error in the Trinity. It's for this sole reason that I don't believe in it.

That Jesus is not the Father is evident from Jesus words to the Jews: "Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father."(John 6:46) The apostle John wrote about 65 years after Jesus death: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."(John 1:18) Also, "at no time has anyone beheld God."(1 John 4:12) Hence, God has never been seen by humans, except Jesus Christ, who "explained him" to honest-hearted ones on the earth, and who corresponded to Adam in perfection before his deflection.

Obviously you weren't paying attention to what I was stating. At times Jesus spoke as a man, at times he spoke as God. When Philip asked him to show them the Father, Jesus said this: Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Jesus could say this because he was the image of the invisible God! The spirit inside Jesus was the exact same spirit that spoke the world into existence! It was only by some glorious miracle that God fused himself into a body of flesh in order to redeem us. I couldn't help but notice that you said that God has never been seen by humans except Jesus. By saying this, you are contradicting the Scripture. The Scripture said that NO MAN has seen the Father. I also don't see a god can be true god if he is begotten. Begotten means had a beginning! How can a God have a beginning? I don't think I'm going to go that god, I'm going to go to the God that created him!

Paul wrote to Timothy, that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."(1 Tim 2:5, 6, “Corresponding ransom.” Greek, an·ti´ly·tron ) Thence, Jesus serves as "mediator between God and men", and is not God. When on earth, Jesus did not have "dual nature", as if he "fully God and fully man". Rather, he "emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men."(Phil 2:7) Jesus was now "fully man" only, having left his heavenly position with his Father and "humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake."(Phil 2:8)

If Jesus was not fully God on earth, then I think it would be safe to reason that HE IS NOT GOD AT ALL! If you deny Jesus' deity, you are flying right in the face of the Scriptures. Jesus said this: Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. He was the Almighty. He had ALL power. If there are two other persons, they don't have any power! You can't have three all-powerful people! Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jesus said to the Jews, if you don't believe that I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins! The Jews knew who the Messiah was. The Messiah was God come in the flesh! Jesus stated several times things to that effect. The Jews understood him perfectly, and tried to kill him, eventually they did crucify him, why can't we?

At John 1:18, Jesus is called "the only-begotten god"("the only-begotten god", Papyrus Bodmer 2 [P66], Papyrus Bodmer 14, 15 [P75], both of about 200 C.E., oldest known Greek manuscripts of the book of John) and is thus godlike in characteristics, for he is Michael the Archangel that fought with Satan and his demons at Revelation 12:7-9, casting them out of the heavenly realm and down to the earth.


Well, believe what you want, Jesus as a begotten man who had a dual personality, or Jesus, a begotten God who isn't a god at all since God cannot have a beginning or he is not God.

And of the word "begotten", the dictionary says: "past participle of beget" or to "1. father: to be the father of a child (archaic), 2. cause: to be the cause of something."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) Hence, Jesus was "begotten " or fathered, having a beginning as with all children. Jesus himself says that he is "the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14) Jesus is unique, for he is the "only-begotten Son of God" or the only son directly created by God himself.


"Only-begotten" is derived from the Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´ and is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents. The King James Bible does not accurately bring this out, for at Luke 7:12, it says of the son of the widow of Nain, that "there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow." The account does not say "only son of his mother", but that "there was a dead man being carried out, the only-begotten son of his mother."(New World Translation)

The Greek word for "only" is monon, whereas the Greek word for "only-begotten" is mo·no·ge·nes´, which is used at Luke 7:12 instead of monon. At John 3:16, Jesus used the Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´, and is thus "the only member of a kin or kind." He is a "single of its kind" in his being created directly by God. Hence, through Jesus "all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth."(Col 1:16) Furthermore, "he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist."(Col 1:17)


Ultimately, I don't care what other sources say about Jesus. All i care about is the Bible and what it says. As far as I'm concerned, God made the Bible easy to understand. We shouldn't have to delve into Greek, Latin, History, Word meanings, and such just to prove a point about the most basic doctrine of the Bible. Even then, you haven't strengthened your position. All you have done is made clear is that Jesus IS NOT God because he had a beginning. God is not limited by time.

To show unscrupulousness of individuals, in order to prop up the trinity doctrine, the King James Bible reads of Acts 7:59: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." However, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament makes this honest admission: “The word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient [manuscripts] or versions.” How did the word “God” come to be inserted into that verse? Scholar Abiel Abbot Livermore called this “an instance of the sectarian biases of the translators.” Most modern translations, therefore, eliminate this spurious reference to God.


What difference can that possibly make? Stephen entrusted his spirit to JESUS! He believed Jesus was God in every sense!

Of 1 Timothy 3:16, it is readily known among scholars that the word "God" is not there, but the Greek word hos (OC in Greek letterng) was altered in the Alexandrian manuscrpt (fifth century C.E.) by someone into a contraction for "God" (ΘC ), by a single dash through the word. One of the first persons to discover tampering with 1 Timothy 3:16 was John James Wetstein (1693-1754). Benjamin Wilson, in the Emphatic Diaglott of 1864, wrote that "nearly all the ancient MSS.(manuscripts), and all the versions have "He who," instead of "God," in this passage."

Until recent years this scripture, also, was much quoted in support of the Trinity teaching, but most modern versions have now substituted “he” for “God”; the Catholic Jerusalem Bible even adds a footnote: “He, i.e. Christ." The New King James Bible (1994) has the word "God" within 1 Timothy 3:16, but says in it's centernotes: "NU who", with the letters NU meaning "the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (N) and the United Bible Societies third edition (U)." Thus, 1 Timothy 3:16 accurately reads as "he who was manifested in the flesh", speaking of Jesus Christ and not God.


You seem to be making a real distinction between Jesus and God. I therefore assume that you believe that Jesus is not God. If that is the case, the Scriptures deny that. 2Co_5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. The Scriptures tells us that God was inside the body of flesh that was born to Mary, reconciling the world to HIMSELF! JESUS WAS GOD IN EVERY SENSE!
It doesn't matter whether God or he is used, it says the same thing, the mystery of godliness is how Jesus (who according to scripture is God) came to earth in the flesh!


Most never do any kind of critical or analytical research regarding the Bible, in order to find for themselves what is true and accurate. Instead, most just accept without question what has been passed down through the centuries on various doctrines by the churches of Christendom, that which is "orthodox". Jesus said to "keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you."(Matt 7:7)

I have not just accepted anything. I have spent hours studying this topic. I haven't relied on other sources, just the Scripture, and if the Scripture is wrong, God help us all! I don't believe in the Trinity because that is not found anywhere in the Bible, I don't believe that Jesus is not God, as that is contradicted by Scripture. The only view that fits right in is that Jesus is supreme deity, the one who created everything, the Great I Am. None of this has been written with the intention of ripping you down. i really feel for you and pray that God will open your eyes and reveal to you who Jesus really is. Without him, we are all lost.
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I am saying that Jesus is not God, for the Scriptural evidence shows that Jesus is subservient to his Father, God. The apostle Paul wrote, some twenty years after Jesus death: "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3) If Jesus were God, equal within a "Godhead", then the woman is equal to the man, for Paul said this within the framework of a headship principle. And also, if Jesus is part of a "Godhead", equal in all aspects with God the Father, then "every man" is equal to the Christ, who is equal to God. The headship principle is now defunct, non-existent. Can this be true ? No.

Thus, just as the man is head of the woman within a family, the Christ is head of the man, and God is head of the Christ. This headship principle is an everlasting one, one that will never be dissolved. To further show that to be the case, Paul said that "when all things will have been subjected to him (or Jesus, that is, when God's kingdom will have fulfilled it's purpose of restoring the earth to a paradise and Adamic death destroyed; 1 Cor 15:24-26), then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."(1 Cor 15:28)

Yes, the trinity does degrade Jesus, placing him in a position of equality with his Father, God, one that does not rightly belong to him nor does he desire it. On the night before his death, Jesus told his disciples "that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28)

Of the word "Godhead", it has been created to support the trinity doctrine. The word "Godhead" is found at Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20, and Colossians 2:9 in the King James Bible. However, the three Greek words, thei´on, means "godlike" at Acts 17:29, thei·o´tes as "divinity" at Romans 1:20 and the·o´tes also as "divinity" by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. At Acts 17:29, an accurate Bible has rendered thei´on as "Divine Being", at Romans 1:20, the Greek word thei·o´tes has been accurately translated as "Godship", and at Colossians 2:9, the·o´tes as "divine quality".(New World Translation)

There is the need to grasp accurately what the Bible writer's wrote under inspiration and not what many of the various Bibles that have been shown to be imprecise or just outright wrong. As an example of the inaccuracy of the King James Bible, 1 Corinthians 10:24 says: "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." This rendition is apparently saying it is okay to ' seek another man's wealth.' This improperly rendered Scripture is but one example of the inaccuracies of the King James Bible throughout it's pages.

The next verse, 1 Corinthians 10:25 says that "whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake." A shambles ? According to modern English, the word shambles means "disorganized failure" or "messy disorder" or "place of carnage".(Microsoft Reference Library 2005) Only if a person looks at the archaic wording does it mean "meat market". Would you want a measuring tape to read 11 inches for a foot instead of 12 inches ? Thus, accuracy is essential and shows that Jesus is not part of a "Godhead".

Never did Jesus speak as God, since he is not God. If he were God, then what the apostle John wrote, that "at no time has anyone seen God" (1 John 4:12) would be false. In fact, the whole Bible would be false, since the over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus as the "only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:16, 18) and called God's "servant" (Matt 12:18; Isa 42:1) would now be untrue.

God did not "fuse himself into a body of flesh in order to redeem us." Following Jesus coming up out of the water after his baptism, John the Baptist "saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him." And now "there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(Matt 3;16, 17) Could Jesus be God and yet a voice from the heavens say "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved" ? In a word No. Later, when Jesus was transfigured, "a voice out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.”(Matt 17:5) If Jesus is God, then why is he called "the beloved" by God ? And if he is God, then why does he receive God's approval ? Does God need the approval of God ?

Those who are unwilling to reason effectively, ones determined to keep the trinity at all costs, despite the overwhelming evidence, will discount these verses. On the other hand, the apostle Paul was a person who changed because he was genuinely sincere, unlike the majority of the Jews of his day. Once Paul recognized the truth about Jesus, "immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God."(Acts 9:20) He made a 180 degree turnabout once he learned that the religious doctrines and traditions he believed in were wrong, for he sincerely wanted to know what is the truth, about God and Jesus.

The word "begotten" means that Jesus has a Father, and thus a "beginning", just as all of us had a "beginning". Why do you and others discard the words that Jesus said, that he is "the beginning of the creation by God" at Revelation 3:14 ? The Bible is not a buffet, where a person can pick-and-choose what he wants. The religious leaders of Jesus day chose only what they wanted from the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament), even distorting the meaning of Scripture, such as the "sabbath"(Matt 12:1-7) or "corbin" (Matt 15:3-9). This has not changed down till our day, with many distorting the Bible in such a fashion as to be unrecognizable of what is the truth. However, those who does this will not remain forever, but are on the "broad and spacious road that leads to destruction".(Matt 7:13; Rev 22:18, 19)

I don't know what is going through your mind, for you can't seem to put "2 + 2 " together, so to speak. It is like a person as a member of a jury hearing all the overwhelming evidence that shows that the person on trial is guilty of a serious crime, but still considers him as innocent. This is a travesty of justice. That Jesus is not God at all is seen by his words at John 7:17, whereby he tells the Jews: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."(King James Bible)

If Jesus were God, would Jesus have used the conjunction "or " in speaking with the Jews, to separate himself from "God" ? And why does Jesus speak of doing "his will" or God's will and not his own ? Would the apostle John have said that "no man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18, King James Bible) if Jesus were God and standing right among the Jews ? Thus, the ability to reason effectively or soundly is not found in many individuals, but are stuck "in a rut" of believing that which is not true. This person would make a poor or biased judge, for this one has preconceived ideas, and would judge wrongly, perhaps sending an innocent person to prison.

And Jesus did not say the words at Revelation 1:8. The King James Bible reads here as saying: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Besides the word "Lord" (Greek Ky´ri·os) being found here, the word "God" (Greek theos) is also, as part of the tampered phrase, "Lord the God". The original Greek read literally "Jehovah the God" or "Jehovah God", with the shortened name of Jehovah being Jah and is found in the expression "hallelujah" at Revelation 19:1. At Revelation 1:8, the name of Jehovah was supplanted with the title "Lord".

The "two other persons" that you mentioned are not two persons, but one person, Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit is God's active force or his "power" to accomplish his will. Paul wrote to the Romans: "May the God who gives hope fill you with all joy and peace by your believing, that you may abound in hope with power of holy spirit."(Rom 15:13) After Jesus baptism, Luke 4:1, 2 says that "Jesus, full of holy spirit, turned away from the Jordan, and he was led about by the spirit in the wilderness for forty days." Could the holy spirit be God and yet Jesus be "full of holy spirit" ? What empowered Jesus to accomplish God's will ? Holy spirit or God's active force, his "power". If the holy spirit is a person, then what is God's power that he used to create the universe ?

There are not "three all-powerful people", but only one God, who is Almighty. Yes, Jesus was the "Messiah" or "anointed one". At Psalms 2:2, it says that "The kings of earth take their stand and high officials themselves have massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one."("anointed one", Hebrew ma·shi´ach, or Messiah, Greek Khri·stos´ or Christ) I need not further explain that Jesus is not God, but his "only-begotten Son" and the holy spirit is God's active force, his applied "power" that uses to accomplish whatever he wishes, in creating "the heavens and the earth."(Gen 1:1)
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Guestman

Yes — Jesus is not God, He is the Son of God.

Blessings
Your savior is not my Savior. One of us is going to Hell. But you probably don't believe in Hell either.

Jn 1 The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
 

KingdomCome

New Member
Sep 13, 2010
95
2
0
Jesus did not come to condemn the world. He came to save the world.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I can not believe that Jesus was harsh in his words toward the scribes and the Pharisees — I believe, with all of my heart, that Jesus had tears in His eyes, and sorrow in His heart, when He suggest they were whited sepulchres and dead mens bones.

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

I cry now for those of you who continually speak prove to others that you are as the scribes and the Pharisees — yes, we know who you are.

Those of us who are followers of Christ Jesus are here not to condemn, but to give life through His Words.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I beg those of you who have condemning attitudes to discontinue your foul and evil responses. Christ Jesus would never have the harshness you profess that He does. You follow Him as if you also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
 

KingdomCome

New Member
Sep 13, 2010
95
2
0
For every person here...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christ Jesus is the "beginning" — In the "beginning" was the Word. It is the Word that is God — not the beginning. Christ Jesus had the Word (who is God) in Him. Moreover — John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The Words Christ Jesus, the beginning, had in Him are God the Spirit and the Life of man.

Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus in the beginning and the Words of God were in Him.

1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And the Bible told me so...

Christ Jesus is the beginning and the Word who is God was in Him.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
I can not believe that Jesus was harsh in his words toward the scribes and the Pharisees — I believe, with all of my heart, that Jesus had tears in His eyes, and sorrow in His heart, when He suggest they were whited sepulchres and dead mens bones.

Mk 3:5 ESV
And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.


For every person here...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christ Jesus is the "beginning" — In the "beginning" was the Word. It is the Word that is God — not the beginning. Christ Jesus had the Word (who is God) in Him. Moreover — John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The Words Christ Jesus, the beginning, had in Him are God the Spirit and the Life of man.

Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus in the beginning and the Words of God were in Him.

1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And the Bible told me so...

Christ Jesus is the beginning and the Word who is God was in Him.
John 1 The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.