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I should have added that this is how I exegesis that verse:
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fail? God forbid: but rather through their tripping up salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
It bothers me to see translators take two different Greek words as in that verse and use the same English word to translate the both. That defeats the reason they were different words in the Greek.
Rom 11:4-7
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(KJV)
What "election" is Paul talking about there? An elect remnant of the Seed of Israel. That was not by Israel's works, but by God's Grace. And who can go against God in that? Nobody.
Pehaps then I am wrong that none of the elect were ever wheat in that field. And of course these first fruits were mingled among the other sheep as a result of the ten tribe kingdom having been mixed into their seed?
Perhaps where I error is that I have ommitted Jesus as beginning the harvest of the first fruits who would then also from that point forward in his stead harvest both more first fruits and tend the other sheep patiently and gently over a longer period of time until they might also be freed from the tares?
1 Corinthians 4:1 "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God."
Fascinating !!!
Your thoughts please?
This puts me in mind of an OT account that shows that when the lost sheep of the house of Israel would be brought out of the nations to be gathered in Christ, the valuable things of the nations would come with them as spoil.
But I do know that the other sheep who have not the higher calling to rule with Christ had to be always there and certainly never neglected by the church as JW teachings (missing something) made it seem.
I could always sense something was missing and the Holy Spirit kept touching me telling me not to sleep and so miss what they were missing.
The promises and covenants to Israel remained with Israel, to this day. That's what believing Gentiles were graffed into per Paul's declaration of "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph.2). Problem is, the majority don't really know who all Israel means today per God's Word, simply because Old Testament history is ommitted from most believers Bible study.
The idea of the Promise by Faith was first to Abraham and then to the seed of Israel. Then it went to Gentiles, but only AFTER many of flesh Israel refused and were rebellious. Paul shows in Romans 11 how it stayed with an elect remnant of the seed of Israel. Then in Ephesians 2 and Romans 11, Paul showed how believing Gentiles were graffed in, even with "the commonwealth of Israel" title applied to Christ's Church. God did not cast away the Israel that He foreknew, just as Paul said in Rom.11.
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And how did that Promise continue, through the Gentiles and then to that elect remnant of the seed of Israel? No, the Promise stayed with believing Israel, and then was sent to Gentiles. Paul and Peter, and even Philip (all Israelites) were first to preach The Gospel to Gentiles, as written.
Not quite right. The Promise by Faith first to Abraham ALSO included other promises to Israel, like the promise of many seed, inheriting believing Gentiles (Isa.49:6; Isa.54:3), ruling the gates of their enemies (Gen.22:17), David's throne (2 Sam.7), inheritance of the holy lands (Gen.15:18-21), and God's laws put into their minds and hearts (Heb.8 & 10), etc. All that was moved to Christ's Church (Rev.21:7; Heb.9-20), but not all of it is manifested on earth yet.
Otherwise, what do you think God's Salvation through His Son is about? Just floating up in the clouds without any substance of inheritance? (Living in the clouds with nothing around is exactly what Christ's enemies want us to think His Salvation is about. It is not, for this earth and everything in it belongs to God and His Christ. It's going to be ours through Him, once the wicked are burned off it.)
Christ's Salvation is always about the Promise by Faith to Abraham. But you cannot just throw away the Old Testament and Gospel Book's evidence of a chosen seed of Israel which God Himself preserved in that Faith, by His Own Hand. That's what the doctrines of men you're on is trying to get you to do. And that's why you have a difficult time addressing what Paul taught about flesh believing Israel of Romans 11:1-5, the elect remnant of flesh Israel which God Himself preserved in His Salvation. Romans 9 cannot change that.
I'm not the one lacking understanding on this matter brother. And I will never accept the doctrines of men you're using over what God's Word declares. That's why I can easily go to God's Word with written proof, while you have to keep changing directions because of men's doctrines.
And what I find really interesting is that God allowed kings and priests within Israel's fleshly society to be passed along by birthright just so we could see how well that mode does not work with sinful men. In so doing he masquaraded the corrupt condition of our flesh before the eyes of the entire world so that no one has an excuse to be prideful of their flesh.
Look how many corrupt kings and priests they suffered.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Isn't it interesting Walking in Grace. I see this all the time, more so lately.
As soon as the bread is delivered in the Spirit the birds come flocking in to rob the bread from from the childrens mouths.
I will keep it very simple. The promise at no time (never ever) came by means of the flesh.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God
, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
That is talking about when he was in the flesh. Jesus plainly said: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” ([/font]Matthew 15:24)
So what John wrote above applies to Israelites.
I beg to differ the covenant the unconditional covenant was given to all the nations / family's of the earth threw Abraham.
Gen 12:3
Gen 18:18
Hi bud02 , and my disagreement will probably be in the implemenation of the 4 covenants that have yet to come to pass ,
#1 , the Abrahamic
#2 , The Palestinian
#3 , the Davidic
#4 , the New Covenant
And these are ALL Unconitional , but will in operation ONLY in the Millennium AND these covenant were never given to Gentiles but in the Millennium the Gentiles will be GRAFTED into the Olve tree .
In Eph 2:12 no covenant was given to Gentiles and the OT is clear also about that , dan p