Why Jews And Gentiles Are Kept Separate ??

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Vengle53

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In post #2 of this thread (page 1) Arnie Martin W. concluded his post, “Hanging on the gentile branch grafted into Israel.”

Let’s examine that.


Romans 11:16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

What is the lump? Is the lump fleshly Israel? What is Jesus the first fruit of? Is he the first fruit of fleshly Israel? Or, is he the first fruit of something that began being separated away from fleshly Israel?

If a branch is broken off is it yet part of the lump (or sum of the branches) that the root bears? No, it is not. Therefore the branches that were broken off are not here being considered as a part of the lump. Rather Paul is telling them that God (the Greater Abraham is the root that bears the Jewish branches that yet remain along with those Gentiles now grafted in. Paul is saying, “The root bears you altogether as one lump.” Christ is the the trunk (like as the body of which the branches are connected in.)


17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Who is the “them” of the phrase “and with them partake”. Clearly it is the branches that were not broken off of the tree.


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bear not the root, but the root thee.

Boast not against what branches? Boast not against the branches that were broken off? Boast not against the branches that are yet on the branch? Or, boast not against any of the branches whether they are broken off or yet on the branch?

Clearly if a branch is broken off the root no longer bears it, so it must be saying not to boast against the branches that are yet grafted in.

So Paul was disciplining them to pay attention and respect those Jewish branches which are yet on the tree. In other words, “Do not act as if they are nothing and you need not listen to them and work along with them.”


Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul as warning them, “That situation can be reversed, you know?”


And if their situation could be reversed then it follows that Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

After all, If God can repent his calling in of the Gentile wild branches then surely he can repent the cutting off those natural branches. But this is not saying that God intends to do so.



Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

That is reasonable and neither is it saying God intends to do so.


The word translated “until” in the next verse is a trouble maker:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

The phrase “in part” means “partly because”. It does not mean this is the total reason why.

The thought “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” is talking about the very last thing that happens. We do not see the fullness of the Gentiles having come in until the great crowd is revealed after the Great Tribulation.


And by that point it becomes irrelevant about fleshly Israel for all of the elect had been selected and sealed before the tribulation as shown earlier in Revelation chapter 7.
 

Vengle53

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I did a short web search and now see that the problem is many have the fleshly Patriarchs made holy before their time.

That is typical of men's pride. But that is not possible before they have entered into Christ. Before that they are only credited with a holy status in some respects. But had they been really holy the Law could not have killed them.

And since all the world from Adam to Christ died due to the Law (proving they were not yet holy of themselves), those fleshly Patriarchs can in no way serve as the root or trunk in what Paul speaks of at Romans 11:16.

God is the root that is holy and Christ is the trunk of the tree. Leviticus 11:44 and 1 Peter 1:16


Here is another picture of it: Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


That is built upon the apostles and the prophets that were first built onto Christ. The prophets in the church as well as its apostles.
 

Vengle53

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There are teachers and then...there are teachers:


Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.​


Part of our being proven in this flesh life is choosing our teachers. Do they teach using His Word only or do they have a "form of knowledge" only and teach out of their hearts? We must decide. Once we reach a certain point.....


1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.​


It is obvious to me from reading this thread that that time has not arrived for everyone for their actions show that they do not "abide in Him." We must understand in this walk that there are others "over us." God has appointed them into this position...do we know and esteem them? Are we "at peace?" Ask for Scriptural documentation, question them, learn, teach, discuss but....be at peace. Time is short...we must "abide in Him!"


1 Thessalonians 5:11-13 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.​


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Everything whirlwind here quotes shows the foundation Ephesians 2:20 speaks of.

These are very balanced comments whirlwind makes.

I had no idea that the common view was that the root and lump of Romans 11: 16 were viewed by most as the flesh and blood Abraham was seen as the root and the Patriarchs after him as the lump until I just per chance had the thought pop into my head to ask online the question of who the root was at Romans 11: 16. And that is a widely prevalent view. It is none-the-less a wrong view developed by those whose thinking was fleshly. In many ways it is a continuation of the disobedient Jew's thinking which was at the base of their pride which lead to their not being able to enter the new covenant at that time.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

I guess it is just too difficult for many to fathom that those two verses just quoted apply to the fleshly Abraham and the Patriarchs too.

Revelation 21:1 ¶And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

When he says "Behhold, I make all things new", he is not saying that he made old things new, It is a new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

And that only began happening after Christ's death and it only happens in Christ.
 

bud02

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Its amazing to watch the Spiritual progress you are making. Isa 52:2-3
And now that you understand that Christ is the root go back and read my comment about Matthew post 35. He goes into great detail about Christ becoming Israel, do some google searches or I'll find a good one for you tomorrow.
http://www.christian...dpost__p__98062

Both Josephs had a dream
both Jesus and Jacob fled to Egypt
Both came out of Egypt
one threw the Red sea and one into the Baptism of John
Both went into the wilderness 40 days and 40 years

Heres a C/P read a bit of this.

Israel, God's Son
About 800 B.C., the Lord spoke through the prophet Hosea, saying, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Yet by this time the nation of Israel had failed to live up to the spiritual meaning of its own name. This verse in Hosea will explode with tremendous importance in just a moment, when we look at the New Testament.

Approximately 800 years after Hosea's prophecy, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king." Matthew 2:1. Because Herod was threatened by this new child king, he sent soldiers who "slew all the children that were in Bethlehem." Verse 16. Joseph was warned of the impending crisis in advance. "The angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word." Verse 13. So the holy family arose and "departed into Egypt." Verse 14.

Matthew writes that little Jesus remained in Egypt "until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son." Verse 15. Notice that Matthew is quoting Hosea 11:1, which originally referred to the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt, yet now he declares it "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ! Here Matthew is beginning to reveal a truly shocking principle that he develops throughout his Gospel.

For example, one time after healing a group of people, Jesus modestly "charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias [Greek for Isaiah] the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets." Matthew 12:16-19, emphasis added. Here the Gospel writer is quoting Isaiah 42:1-3, a passage that originally applied to "Israel, ... my servant." Isaiah 41:8, emphasis added. But Matthew again tells us it is "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ!

The apostle Paul also followed the principle of applying statements originally made about the nation of Israel to Jesus Christ. God called Israel "my firstborn" in Exodus 4:22. Yet Paul said it was Jesus Christ who is "the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15.

The clearest example of them all is where God called Israel "the seed of Abraham." Isaiah 41:8. Yet Paul later wrote that Abraham's seed does not refer to "many," but to "one, ... which is Christ." Galatians 3:16, emphasis added. Thus we discover that over and over in the New Testament, statements that originally applied to the nation of Israel are applied to Jesus Christ. The Messiah is now "the seed." Therefore Jesus is the very essence of Israel! This is an explosive truth!

A very careful study of the first book of the New Testament reveals that Christ actually repeated the history of ancient Israel, point by point, and overcame where they had failed. Notice the following amazing parallels between the history of ancient Israel and of Jesus Christ:



In the Old Testament, a young man named Joseph had dreams and went into Egypt to preserve his family alive (Genesis 45:5). In the New Testament we find another Joseph, who likewise had dreams and then went to Egypt to preserve his family (Matthew 2:13). <li>When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15. <li>When Israel left Egypt, the people went through the Red Sea. The apostle Paul says they were "baptized unto Moses ... in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:2. Jesus was also baptized "to fulfill all righteousness," and immediately afterward God proclaimed Him, "my beloved Son" (Matthew 3:15-17). <li>After the Israelites went through the Red Sea, they spent 40 years in the wilderness. Immediately after His baptism, Jesus was "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness" for 40 days (Matthew 4:1, 2). <li>At the end of their 40-year wilderness wandering, Moses wrote the book of Deuteronomy. At the end of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, He resisted Satan's temptations by quoting three Scriptures-all from Deuteronomy! <li>In Psalm 80:8, God calls Israel a "vine" that He brought "out of Egypt." Yet Jesus later declared, "I am the true vine." John 15:1. In the Old Testament, the name "Israel" first applied to one man, to Jacob. It represented Jacob's spiritual victory over sin. Even so, in the beginning of the New Testament we discover that Jesus Christ is the new Israel who came "out of Egypt." He is the one victorious Man who overcame all sin! A New Nation
Yet there is more. Remember that the name "Israel" not only referred to Jacob, but also to his descendants, who became Israel. The same principle is seen in the New Testament.

For example, the Lord had told the ancient Israelites, "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:6. In the New Testament, Peter applies these exact words to the church: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people." 1 Peter 2:9.

Likewise, right after Paul's statement in Galatians chapter 3 about Jesus being "the seed," he then told his Gentile converts [a Gentile is any person who is not of the Jewish faith], "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29. Thus in the New Testament, the name Israel not only applies to Jesus Christ, but also to those who are born in Christ-His church! In other words, all true Christians are now God's spiritual Israel.

Double Vision
Have you ever been hit hard on the head and then started seeing double? Well, from what we have studied, the Christian world needs a loving bonk on the head with this New Testament truth so that more people will start "seeing double" about the subject of Israel! According to the New Testament, there are now two Israels. One group is composed of literal Israelites "according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3, 4). The other is "spiritual Israel," composed of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Romans 9:6. That is, not all are part of God's spiritual Israel who are of the literal nation of Israel. Paul continued, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh [physical descendants of Abraham], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8. The children of the flesh are only natural descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise are counted as the true seed. Today any person-Jew or Gentile-can become a part of this spiritual nation of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.

God Looks on the Heart
Just as there are two Israels, there are also two kinds of Jews: (1) Jews who are only natural descendants of Abraham, and (2) Jews in the Spirit who believe in Jesus Christ. Paul wrote, "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest on the law, and makest thy boast of God. ... For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision [Gentiles] keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29.

Did you catch that? The implications are staggering! Someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, "is not a Jew." His "circumcision is made uncircumcision." Thus to God, he is a Gentile. And a believing Gentile, who through faith keeps "the righteousness of the law," his uncircumcision is counted for circumcision. Thus to God, he is a Jew. John the Baptist paved the way for this principle when he warned the Jews not to trust their literal ancestry for salvation. "Bring forth therefore fruits meet [worthy] for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Matthew 3:8, 9.

Later Jesus echoed this same principle in a showdown with the religious leaders. "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:39, 44, emphasis added.

Paul wrote, "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7. "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3. Thus, according to Paul, a real Jew in the sight of God is anybody-Jew or Gentile-who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!

Eventually this truth hit Peter between the eyes, and he told a room full of Gentile converts, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:34, 35.

All Israel Saved?
Since we've gone this far, we may as well go all the way! Only Jews will be saved. Furthermore, all Jews will be saved! Now after you pick yourself up off the floor, allow us to explain these bold statements.

We all know that we are saved under the new covenant, right? Notice the wording of the new covenant: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah." Jeremiah 31:31, emphasis added. And in the book of Hebrews, Paul expands on this concept: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. ... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews 8:8, 10-12, emphasis added.

The new covenant is made "with the house of Israel"! God never makes a salvation covenant with Gentiles. In fact, nowhere in Scripture do you find any saving covenant made with anyone but Israelites! So if you want to be saved, you must be born again, as a spiritual Jew. This is not to say that all Christians must now be circumcised and sacrifice lambs, but we must have the spiritual equivalent of these things-Jesus, the Lamb of God, and circumcision of the heart.

God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different brand for non-Jews. Everyone is saved the same way under the same program. By grace through faith. Paul used the analogy of an olive tree to explain that all Gentiles who are saved are grafted into the stock of Israel. "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root [supports] thee." Romans 11:17, 18.

The Christian religion is based on a Jewish manual called the Bible. (In light of this fact, it is extremely difficult to understand how any real Christian could be anti-Semitic.) Christianity is not a new religion, but rather the completion of the Jewish faith.

With this truth in mind, we can now better understand what Paul meant when he said, "And so all Israel shall be saved." Romans 11:26. Some have taken this verse to mean that God will ultimately save all literal Jews. If this were true, it would contradict every principle of God's dealings with humans throughout history and Scripture. God is not a racist. In Jesus' eyes, "There is neither Jew nor Greek." Galatians 3:28.

We are saved based on choices we make regarding God's provision, not on national status or physical citizenship. But if when Paul says that "all Israel will be saved" he is speaking of spiritual Israel, and if we understand that we become a "true Jew" only by a choice, then it all makes sense.
 

dan p

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[quote name=Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.[/indent]


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[/quote]


Hi , and would you like to start a thread on Hebrews 13:7 and who the writer is referring to here , to the Jew or to the Body of Christ ???? dan p
 

Vengle53

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You said, "Have you ever been hit hard on the head and then started seeing double? Well, from what we have studied, the Christian world needs a loving bonk on the head with this New Testament truth so that more people will start "seeing double" about the subject of Israel! According to the New Testament, there are now two Israels."​
I like that !!!​
I posted this in a thread I began to discuss what the various things under the Law represent:

(#17) Come to think of it, there is one restriction in the NT, but it was also given us before the Old Law:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Some even take that to mean blood transfusions are prohibited.


I say it is just a matter of showing respect for life, as the scripture tells us also that: Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

(#19) I like to look deeply at the scripture. I said that I thought it is just a matter of showing respect for life, as the scripture tells us also that:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

God has grouped all blood together in that statement. I believe that is saying he allowed our life to continue that we might serve him (figuratively offering our life on the alter to him).

That is how I see these words of Paul: 1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

Compare: Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [End Quote]

We would be better teachers if we had the double vision on the emblems under the Law, and on what the things that happened to Israel picture. How many of us know that understanding what these things represent has a great deal to do with accurate interpretation of the scriptures, which is why Paul could talk about the Jews having a special edge by virtue of having those things committed to their fleshly bloodline? It prepared them to be the foundation of the church of Christ.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Do you see that point? Because they had these oracles committed to them, they should therefore understand what these things pictured. That then gives them the advantage as apostles of Christ, for they should be better equipped to see the spiritual fullfilment of those oracles.

My first post on that thread was this:
(#1) Unclean Animals:

Acts 10:9 ¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Acts 10:19 ¶While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

The three men were Gentiles, one whose name was Cornelius, and here as follows is the key thing that Peter said to them that tells us the meaning of the unclean animal's under that Old Law:

Acts 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

So there we see that the unclean animals under the Law were evidently considered by Peter to represent the uncleanness in men. After all, Peter having thought about the vision he was given, this was the conclusion he reached as to its meaning.

That well explains why men and nations were so often pictured as various kinds of beasts in the OT. [End Quote]
 

Vengle53

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Hi , and would you like to start a thread on Hebrews 13:7 and who the writer is referring to here , to the Jew or to the Body of Christ ???? dan p


Yes, that would be good.

I do know that when one realizes as they read Hebrews that it was a letter to the hebrews just as it is called, that in itself makes a big difference in how parts of it are to be understood.

Example: Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That is saying Jesus was tested in all things as his Israelite brothers when he was in the flesh. That does end up having some subtle affects on other ideas men have formulated.
 

Vengle53

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I will take a quick stab at explaining Hebrews 13:7 by noting that the 12th chapter recalls us to remember so great a crowd of witnesses to imitate their faith.

Also, we know the the 12 apostles of the Lamb are the churches foundation stones, and so they are now a part of that so great a cloud of witnesses for us. Chief among that so great a cloud of witnesses is Christ himself who is the chief cornerstone of the church. That church is the Temple now. Not that temple that was in earthly Jerusalem that so many expect to be built again.
All that it pictured has been fulfilled in Christ and is being fulfilled in the elect.

From that point we see the older men among us; those who have the experience right among us at imitating the example of that so great a cloud of witnesses, including the apostles and other faithful mentioned for us in the NT.

The problem with imitating the example of the older men among us is that too many people imitate those who really only masquerade as older more experienced followers of Christ and so if we are really desirous of making sure we walk in the truth we look more intently at the witnesses the Bible has firmly established for us. Then we will be equipped to see when someone among us is misleading us.

In my prior post I ought to have said Hebrews 4:15 also.
 

dan p

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[quote name='bud02' . The Jews are not intentionally blinded by God as many dispensasonalist teach. Plus you can find no other scripture to support such a thing as God preventing true seekers of the truth from finding Him. You expanded the true meaning of the verse very well, I'll remember it.
Greek translation fail or fall and compare the use of the Greek in other text. I do this for other verses but never this one thank you.
[/quote]

Hi bud02 , and I am a Dispensationlist and why not read Matt 13:14-16 and it will change that illusion .

In verse 14 it was already A prophesy that Isreal would be BLINDED , and Isa 6:9-10 and Matt 13:14 is a repeart of Isa .

And if they were to be Converted , they would have gone into the Great Tribulation , and the Dispensation of Grace would not BE .

God did blind them and could have opened there eyes and ears , but did not , dan p
 

Vengle53

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Hi bud02 , and I am a Dispensationlist and why not read Matt 13:14-16 and it will change that illusion .

In verse 14 it was already A prophesy that Isreal would be BLINDED , and Isa 6:9-10 and Matt 13:14 is a repeart of Isa .

And if they were to be Converted , they would have gone into the Great Tribulation , and the Dispensation of Grace would not BE .

God did blind them and could have opened there eyes and ears , but did not , dan p


In a sense they were Danp, but only in a sense. God had allowed it and even manipulated it some what so that they would call for the death of Christ.

But I know you know God does nothing bad Danp. And the scriptures make it clear that all God did was allow them to go the way of their own stubborn hearts. To a degree debating this issue is just a bickering over words.

Do you realize how easy it is to take the scriptures you base your idea on and see them the way you do? Scince it is so easy to see them that way surely you know that it is easy for us to step into your view and test it out against the greater body of scripture.

And we have done that. Now it is your turn to try to see our view and test it out as we have yours.
 

Vengle53

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Hey Bud02,

Another thing just occurred to me as to part of their confusion.

They have the wrong view of the promised land.

They do not understand that the land in the earthly nation of Israel being given them after taking it away from its inhabiting nations pictured what would happen to the entire earth. That promised land was the prototype for the entire earth being promised to Christ Jesus, his elect brothers, and all of their children from out of all nations, the true lost sheep of the spiritual house of spiritual Israel.

1 Chronicles 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Psalms 132:7 We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool.
 

Vengle53

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Hi bud02 , and I am a Dispensationlist and why not read Matt 13:14-16 and it will change that illusion .

In verse 14 it was already A prophesy that Isreal would be BLINDED , and Isa 6:9-10 and Matt 13:14 is a repeart of Isa .

And if they were to be Converted , they would have gone into the Great Tribulation , and the Dispensation of Grace would not BE .

God did blind them and could have opened there eyes and ears , but did not , dan p


Some of this is in a failure to realize that right unto the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Army ever thing was a prophet shadow of the larger time of the end to come upon this earth.

This is why I say that just as we see the Great Crowd come out of the tribulation in Revelation chapter 7, so also there were some of them that came out of the tribulation upon Jerusalem having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. And that did not restore the fleshly Jerusalem then, either.

There is a problem with the way so many see this in that their views make it seem as though God has deserted many along the way throughout the generations since Jerusalem's fall. Jehovah's Witnesses said for a long time (and may yet, i don't know) that God has only been harvesting first fruits all of these years. They then cite the scripture in Acts that says there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous, and that the unrighteous are to be judged over the thousand years and must then pass the final test at the end of the thousand years. And they say that the other sheep only began showing up in 1932 as part of that great crowd that gets revealed out of the Great Tribulation. they feel that is plausible because no one can really say who of them will be saved until they make it through the Great Tribulation so that they can be assuredly identified as being part of that Great Crowd. And that logic is not as shabby as one might imagine.

They view the period of the church unto the tribulation as preparing the bride and the thousand years after the tribulation for shepherding the nations to God by the then ruling kingdom of Christ.

I merely disagree with them when they say that those other sheep were not in the church throughout its generations. I explained a little about my view on that in a previous post.

I said that the entire earth-wide field of God that is the Israel of Revelation 7 corresponding to all 12 tribes of the fleshly Israel wherein God worked with all the people, even the stiff necked and disobedient ones. There are many scriptures that show God taking hold of this earth and shaking it so as to shake the valuable things loose from it. And the emphasis as we see from Malachi is on refining the sons of Levi. The sons of Levi are those spiritual Jews who will be associate priests with Christ in his kingdom.

All of that is fine and good, but that does not mean that in each generation God has not bothered with the other sheep. He was teaching them along with the tares that have them bound. And we can if we try, find that in each generation since Jerusalem's fall there have been points of tribulation just as there was upon the fleshly Jerusalem at its leading up to its fall.

What it comes down to is that God calls and the ones that are more easily able to hear are the elect first fruits because they required far less untangling than the rest of the wheat. I believe that at the end of each generation shook the earth to free the precious metal of the elect and bring them into Christ and they have practiced on those who were tightly bound up by the tares.. They are now sleeping in death and when they are resurrected they are the unrighteous ones acts talks about. The tares will no longer be there as an excuse for them after their resurrection. But they had a beginning of teaching along in every generation so it will not take a lot more teaching to set them on the right path with those tares no longer interfering.

We can see this taking place today if you think about it. There are many struggling Christians bound up with confusion due to the tares that have overrun God's field. Isn't it good to know that God is not going to desert them? That just as we see him try in the present to reach them, he has done this same thing in all generations?

We have a remarkable God and he is not giving up on us. Neither has he given up on those natural Jews who like so many today were bound with confusion by the tares among them. In that manner all Israel (all God's world-wide Israel) will be saved.

JWs also taught that only the 144,000 are spiritual Israelites. That is true in a sense as one must prove to be a prevails with God to have that status. But in the case of these other sheep throughout each generation we cannot yet say which ones of them will in the finale prove to be Israelites. They are the ones left in that world-wide Israel of Revelation 7 after the elect had all been selected out. Then the entire field is left to enter the greatest tribulation the world has ever known where those other sheep of that generation are shaken loose from the tares and the tares are destroyed once and for all times. That last tribulation is specifically for shaking loose the nucleus number of other sheep that are yet alive in that last generation and the taught but not as yet fully matured will be resurrected to join them. None of them really are said to come alive until the thousand years are ended. That is because they must become holy as he is holy. That means they will have to pass the final hour of testing. Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This was a lot to speak out of my head in such a short sit so expect you will find flaws.
 

bud02

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The Lord says He will subdue the whole earth. The meek shall inherit it. And the house of Jacob shall be called from every land they have gone to.

Jeremiah 30

Restoration for Israel and Judah
The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, [sup]2[/sup] “Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. [sup]3[/sup] For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”
[sup]4[/sup] Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
[sup]5[/sup] “For thus says the LORD:


‘ We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
[sup]6[/sup] Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
[sup]7[/sup] Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
[sup]8[/sup] ‘ For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
[sup]9[/sup] But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
[sup]10[/sup] ‘ Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,

Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.

Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
[sup]11[/sup] For I am with you,’ says the LORD, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.

But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

[sup]12[/sup] “For thus says the LORD:


‘ Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
[sup]13[/sup] There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
[sup]14[/sup] All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
[sup]15[/sup] Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.
[sup]16[/sup] ‘ Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
[sup]17[/sup] For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the LORD,


‘ Because they called you an outcast saying:

“ This is Zion;
No one seeks her.”’

[sup]18[/sup] “Thus says the LORD:


‘ Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;

The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
[sup]19[/sup] Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
[sup]20[/sup] Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
[sup]21[/sup] Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
[sup]22[/sup] ‘ You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’”
[sup]23[/sup] Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
[sup]24[/sup] The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.

In the latter days you will understand this.
 

Vengle53

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Some of the lost sheep of the house of Israel have been right in front of us all along. Let’s reason a minute on that thought.

Jesus plainly said: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

But if Jesus while in the flesh was sent to none but “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” can it be correctly assumed that the 12 Apostles and the above five hundred brethren that Paul mentions at 1[sup]st[/sup] Corinthians 15: 5-8 were also “lost sheep of the house of Israel”?

Jesus clearly was not speaking about the entire Israel of flesh as being “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. He was speaking only of those who put faith in him. And those natural Israelites who through faith gathered to Jesus represented his body already beginning to learn to walk and work in his stead as his stewards out in God’s field of wheat and tares.

If they are in fact the beginning of the recovery of “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, then in what way could they have been lost? Showing that those right there with him were indeed the lost sheep, Matthew 9:36 “But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.”

Jeremiah 50:6 “My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.”

And, as I previously said, those natural Israelites who through faith gathered to Jesus represented his body already beginning to learn to walk and work in his stead as his stewards out in God’s field of wheat and tares. Thus it should come as no surprise that: Matthew 10:5-7 “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand’.”



Luke 19:10 “For, the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”



This being the case how does that affect some theories concerning those Paul spoke of at Romans 11: 8?



 

dan p

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In a sense they were Danp, but only in a sense. God had allowed it and even manipulated it some what so that they would call for the death of Christ.

But I know you know God does nothing bad Danp. And the scriptures make it clear that all God did was allow them to go the way of their own stubborn hearts. To a degree debating this issue is just a bickering over words.

Do you realize how easy it is to take the scriptures you base your idea on and see them the way you do? Scince it is so easy to see them that way surely you know that it is easy for us to step into your view and test it out against the greater body of scripture.

And we have done that. Now it is your turn to try to see our view and test it out as we have yours.

Hi Walking in Grace , and I believed as you for 30 years and I know what most Acts 2 and Covenant theology believers will say and was a SO Baptist for over 10 years and like many people were searching for something , but I never found it until I met a dispensationalist , and it all fell in to place .

Dispensationalism will not be for all , as most believers get comfortable with there red letter edition , so-called following Jesus , and there Baptism that all can never explain and sorry I have been there and did that .

It is amusing , that most pastors alway seem to preach from the OT or from the Gospels , because they do not understand Pauline dispensationalism , Eph 3:1-10 ; Col 1:25 ; Acts 20:24 ; or 1 Cor 17 .

Most believers never do know that OIKONOMIA /DISPENSATION is a bible word only written by Paul and in all of my OP I have yet to even post what Paul says about dispensationalism .

Israel was amonished to never make any covenant outside of Israel and Covenant were never given to Gentiles Eph 2 , dan p
 

bud02

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Israel was amonished to never make any covenant outside of Israel and Covenant were never given to Gentiles Eph 2 , dan p

I beg to differ the covenant the unconditional covenant was given to all the nations / family's of the earth threw Abraham.

Gen 12:3
Gen 18:18
 

veteran

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Once you grasp what Paul says on the subject you will realize that it was only indirectly that promises and
such were passed through the flesh and that only until Christ. That is why Paul said "to who pertain".


The promises and covenants to Israel remained with Israel, to this day. That's what believing Gentiles were graffed into per Paul's declaration of "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph.2). Problem is, the majority don't really know who all Israel means today per God's Word, simply because Old Testament history is ommitted from most believers Bible study.

The idea of the Promise by Faith was first to Abraham and then to the seed of Israel. Then it went to Gentiles, but only AFTER many of flesh Israel refused and were rebellious. Paul shows in Romans 11 how it stayed with an elect remnant of the seed of Israel. Then in Ephesians 2 and Romans 11, Paul showed how believing Gentiles were graffed in, even with "the commonwealth of Israel" title applied to Christ's Church. God did not cast away the Israel that He foreknew, just as Paul said in Rom.11.


What was passed by the flesh was really only the persons, some who remained children of the flesh and some who would
be children of the promise. But the promises were given always by the spirit and of God's choosing.


And how did that Promise continue, through the Gentiles and then to that elect remnant of the seed of Israel? No, the Promise stayed with believing Israel, and then was sent to Gentiles. Paul and Peter, and even Philip (all Israelites) were first to preach The Gospel to Gentiles, as written.


Now see if you can get this: Though the children of the promise were passed by the flesh, the promises themselves came by
spirit. So once the purpose of the children of promise being passed along through the flesh reached its fulfillment in Christ,
then, from that point forward there is no more dependency on the flesh at all.


Not quite right. The Promise by Faith first to Abraham ALSO included other promises to Israel, like the promise of many seed, inheriting believing Gentiles (Isa.49:6; Isa.54:3), ruling the gates of their enemies (Gen.22:17), David's throne (2 Sam.7), inheritance of the holy lands (Gen.15:18-21), and God's laws put into their minds and hearts (Heb.8 & 10), etc. All that was moved to Christ's Church (Rev.21:7; Heb.9-20), but not all of it is manifested on earth yet.

Otherwise, what do you think God's Salvation through His Son is about? Just floating up in the clouds without any substance of inheritance? (Living in the clouds with nothing around is exactly what Christ's enemies want us to think His Salvation is about. It is not, for this earth and everything in it belongs to God and His Christ. It's going to be ours through Him, once the wicked are burned off it.)


Now the promises are able to be shared with children of the promise (God's elect) out of all nations, not dependent on anyone's fleshly lineage..

Christ's Salvation is always about the Promise by Faith to Abraham. But you cannot just throw away the Old Testament and Gospel Book's evidence of a chosen seed of Israel which God Himself preserved in that Faith, by His Own Hand. That's what the doctrines of men you're on is trying to get you to do. And that's why you have a difficult time addressing what Paul taught about flesh believing Israel of Romans 11:1-5, the elect remnant of flesh Israel which God Himself preserved in His Salvation. Romans 9 cannot change that.


I know that is seems rather complex but it is not. Try to understand it first, then if you don't want to accept it toss it away.

I'm not the one lacking understanding on this matter brother. And I will never accept the doctrines of men you're using over what God's Word declares. That's why I can easily go to God's Word with written proof, while you have to keep changing directions because of men's doctrines.
 

Vengle53

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Hi Walking in Grace , and I believed as you for 30 years and I know what most Acts 2 and Covenant theology believers will say and was a SO Baptist for over 10 years and like many people were searching for something , but I never found it until I met a dispensationalist , and it all fell in to place .

Dispensationalism will not be for all , as most believers get comfortable with there red letter edition , so-called following Jesus , and there Baptism that all can never explain and sorry I have been there and did that .

It is amusing , that most pastors alway seem to preach from the OT or from the Gospels , because they do not understand Pauline dispensationalism , Eph 3:1-10 ; Col 1:25 ; Acts 20:24 ; or 1 Cor 17 .

Most believers never do know that OIKONOMIA /DISPENSATION is a bible word only written by Paul and in all of my OP I have yet to even post what Paul says about dispensationalism .

Israel was amonished to never make any covenant outside of Israel and Covenant were never given to Gentiles Eph 2 , dan p

I applaud anyone who is searching the scriptures with a contrite heart. Perhaps I am a bit simple but the use of the word "dispensation" is a bit out of place for our time. The emphasis thought used to be on the orderliness of the dispencing. It therefore used to represent an organized administration or stewardship. And we should understand that this is God's established administration and not just our own version of it that Paul refers to.

It is the organized way God's Spirit moves the gospel to be dispenced.
It is the organized way all things are gathered together in Christ.
It is the organized way God dispenses his grace.
And it is the organized way that God chooses ministers of his word.

Those are the 4 ways Paul uses the word.

1 Corinthians 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order."

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

It has the connotation of God governing our affairs.