The First Resurrection

[amigo de christo]

In the Old concealed, in the New revealed

Jesus Is The Lord of the Old Testament, Amen!

and that spiritual rock was Christ . The Spirit of Christ which was in them did testify .
OH YES . Most folks think Christ came to have us feel free in sin , when in truth
it was to free us from sin . To write the law upon our heart . That we, by HIM , do walk HOLY and love righteousness and truth .
LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

 

[amadeus]

Question: Do you believe in a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven, as will be seen by humans on earth,as scripture teaches below?

Luke 21:27-28KJV
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Mark 13:26KJV
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Ha!
1) Are my answers that important to you?
2) What is your purpose? I don't mind discussion but it needs to be two way or in some way edifying according to God. .
3) Are you really interested in my answer or are you simply wanting to change my mind or perhaps to put me down?

My skin has thickened over my 20 years on Christian forums as well as in at open in person services, but as someone told me recently, I am still touchy in places. I do not like debating for its own sake. I like edifying others or being edified in the things of God.

Every morning for a great many years I have been reading the Bible in three languages as well as talking to God in a special language He gave to me back in 1976. I never miss a day for I cannot, but my morning purpose is not to further any agenda of mine but rather, at best, to move closer to God; or, at worst, to not move away from Him.

The answer to your question at the start of your post is, No!

Will you truthfully answer the three questions I asked you?

 

[Truth7t7]

Ha!
1) Are my answers that important to you?
2) What is your purpose? I don't mind discussion but it needs to be two way or in some way edifying according to God. .
3) Are you really interested in my answer or are you simply wanting to change my mind or perhaps to put me down?

My skin has thickened over my 20 years on Christian forums as well as in at open in person services, but as someone told me recently, I am still touchy in places. I do not like debating for its own sake. I like edifying others or being edified in the things of God.

Every morning for a great many years I have been reading the Bible in three languages as well as talking to God in a special language He gave to me back in 1976. I never miss a day for I cannot, but my morning purpose is not to further any agenda of mine but rather, at best, to move closer to God; or, at worst, to not move away from Him.

The answer to your question at the start of your post is, No!

Will you truthfully answer the three questions I asked you?

Thanks for the response Amadeus, I do care to know your belief, as it stands It appears that you are in the camp of (Full Preterism) as you deny a future bodily resurrection and visible second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

To go further, Arians deny Jesus actually had a human body of flesh, but taught Jesus was a spirit being as he walked the earth

I appreciate your honesty, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[amadeus]

Thanks for the response Amadeus, I do care to know your belief, and It appears that you are in the camp of (Full Preterism) as you deny a literal bodily resurrection and visible second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

I appreciate your honesty, Jesus Is The Lord

I would be surprised to find myself in any of men's described camps for longer than a moment. Each morning I strive to be empty that is to go to the lowest room. Sometimes I am refilled with seemingly the same, but sometimes the filling is noticeably different.

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11

 

[Truth7t7]

I would be surprised to find myself in any of men's described camps for longer than a moment. Each morning I strive to be empty that is to go to the lowest room. Sometimes I am refilled with seemingly the same, but sometimes the filling is noticeably different.

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11

Amadeus, there are three major foundational beliefs in the Christian faith, and you deny two, and I haven't asked the question pertaining to item #1

Your beliefs are outside of Christian Orthodoxy, the truth in love

1) belief, repentance, and salvation, through Jesus Christ's atonement on Calvary

2) The future literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

3) The future glorified bodily resurrection of the believer

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus, there are three major foundational beliefs in the Christian faith

Are there indeed? Without those three beliefs then according to God a person cannot be a follower of Christ, a Christian? What does that make me in the eyes of God? Do you know?

, and you deny two, and I haven't asked the question pertaining to item #1

Your beliefs are outside of Christian Orthodoxy, the truth in love

1) belief, repentance, and salvation, through Jesus Christ's atonement on Calvary

2) The future literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

3) The future glorified bodily resurrection of the believer

Deny?

Actually you pressed for a yea or a nay, when really the answer lay in the shadows somewhere in between as far as you are concerned. My answer between me and God is another thing, isn't it? He understands where I am at any given moment better than me. No one else does, but since no one else renders final judgement on me one way or the other, why would it matter?

I have never belonged to a mainstream or orthodox church, unless Catholicism is included in those groups. What you or they consider foundational are things of which I have never heard before as you state them. I have been on many Christian forums in the past 20 years but not one person lined them up like that for me. Sounds a bit like the creeds Catholics and few other stand behind. I don't. For years I stood close to President Abraham Lincoln on such things, but in more recent years, perhaps not.

My answer to your assertions in any case is that I do not embrace such things as ATs [Absolute Truths] as I do live for God by faith rather than by knowledge. Only God knows certainly in every case which, if any of the ones you named, should be an AT or a "foundational belief", or not. Neither Jesus nor Paul lined them up that way. Was not Peter flat against making a new code of prescribed laws to replace those given to Moses?

By faith, as I see it, is how every believer should be living rather than in accord with prescribed "foundational beliefs". Faith as per scripture is the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". To me that precludes setting anything in concrete as ATs or foundational beliefs. Making it foundational would mean someone had knowledge rather than belief as I understand the terms. I don't have such knowledge for certain and I doubt that all purported members of "orthodox" churches or even their leadership does. Of course, I am unorthodox so perhaps no one should be paying attention me.

Was not Jesus so unorthodox that the Jewish [Church?] leadership conspired to have him killed. Could it be that being unorthodox is a good thing? How strongly should a person stand behind his own ATs or "foundational beliefs"?

You never did answer specifically all three of my questions. Why is that? Do you really then have an agenda of your own?

 

[Truth7t7]

Are there indeed? Without those three beliefs then according to God a person cannot be a follower of Christ, a Christian? What does that make me in the eyes of God? Do you know?


Deny?

Actually you pressed for a yea or a nay, when really the answer lay in the shadows somewhere in between as far as you are concerned. My answer between me and God is another thing, isn't it? He understands where I am at any given moment better than me. No one else does, but since no one else renders final judgement on me one way or the other, why would it matter?

I have never belonged to a mainstream or orthodox church, unless Catholicism is included in those groups. What you or they consider foundational are things of which I have never heard before as you state them. I have been on many Christian forums in the past 20 years but not one person lined them up like that for me. Sounds a bit like the creeds Catholics and few other stand behind. I don't. For years I stood close to President Abraham Lincoln on such things, but in more recent years, perhaps not.

My answer to your assertions in any case is that I do not embrace such things as ATs [Absolute Truths] as I do live for God by faith rather than by knowledge. Only God knows certainly in every case which, if any of the ones you named, should be an AT or a "foundational belief", or not. Neither Jesus nor Paul lined them up that way. Was not Peter flat against making a new code of prescribed laws to replace those given to Moses?

By faith, as I see it, is how every believer should be living rather than in accord with prescribed "foundational beliefs". Faith as per scripture is the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". To me that precludes setting anything in concrete as ATs or foundational beliefs. Making it foundational would mean someone had knowledge rather than belief as I understand the terms. I don't have such knowledge for certain and I doubt that all purported members of "orthodox" churches or even their leadership does. Of course, I am unorthodox so perhaps no one should be paying attention me.

Was not Jesus so unorthodox that the Jewish [Church?] leadership conspired to have him killed. Could it be that being unorthodox is a good thing? How strongly should a person stand behind his own ATs or "foundational beliefs"?

You never did answer specifically all three of my questions. Why is that? Do you really then have an agenda of your own?

There are no shadows lurking in between, you have openly denied items #2 & #3 below

Absolute Truth, Jesus Is The Lord

Amadeus, there are three major foundational beliefs in the Christian faith, and you deny two, and I haven't asked the question pertaining to item #1

Your beliefs are outside of Christian Orthodoxy, the truth in love

1) belief, repentance, and salvation, through Jesus Christ's atonement on Calvary

2) The future literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

3) The future glorified bodily resurrection of the believer

 

[amadeus]

There are no shadows lurking in between, you have openly denied items #2 & #3 below

A black and white declaration of what is in my heart? I thank God that my final judgement lies between me and Him instead of any other man!

Absolute Truth, Jesus Is The Lord

For you and for me perhaps and for any who have fully submitted themselves to Jesus, but he is not the Lord of anyone who has not accepted him and acknowledged him as their Lord! There are many who not done that... probably even among those who csay that they have. God knows the hearts of each one!

Amadeus, there are three major foundational beliefs in the Christian faith,

One of your ATs?

and you deny two, and I haven't asked the question pertaining to item #1

Your beliefs are outside of Christian Orthodoxy, the truth in love

1) belief, repentance, and salvation, through Jesus Christ's atonement on Calvary

2) The future literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens

3) The future glorified bodily resurrection of the believer

So then being outside of the orthodox according to you, does that mean God has also put me definitely on the outside? Is that made clearly in written scripture? Are only those who have the right theology and proclaim it rightly in accord with the definitions you have defined or accepted from other men ultimately "saved"?

Still you are pursuing your agenda and have not even made reference to my unanswered questions. Is this a discussion between two people or a lecture and examination by you as you continue to ignore what I have asked of you?

You do know that you cannot win here as God alone gives any real increase. Debates may be used by God to accomplish His purpose, but then we should be careful about presuming. That could be tempting God.

As to judgement does not Jesus gives us the basis for God's judgements here?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of
him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Simply put... "much is given... much required"!

And Paul speaks of the increases or growth in God here:

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

Give God the glory, my friend!

 

[Truth7t7]

A black and white declaration of what is in my heart? I thank God that my final judgement lies between me and Him instead of any other man!


For you and for me perhaps and for any who have fully submitted themselves to Jesus, but he is not the Lord of anyone who has not accepted him and acknowledged him as their Lord! There are many who not done that... probably even among those who csay that they have. God knows the hearts of each one!

One of your ATs?

So then being outside of the orthodox according to you, does that mean God has also put me definitely on the outside? Is that made clearly in written scripture? Are only those who have the right theology and proclaim it rightly in accord with the definitions you have defined or accepted from other men ultimately "saved"?

Still you are pursuing your agenda and have not even made reference to my unanswered questions. Is this a discussion between two people or a lecture and examination by you as you continue to ignore what I have asked of you?

You do know that you cannot win here as God alone gives any real increase. Debates may be used by God to accomplish His purpose, but then we should be careful about presuming. That could be tempting God.

As to judgement does not Jesus gives us the basis for God's judgements here?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of
him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Simply put... "much is given... much required"!

And Paul speaks of the increases or growth in God here:

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

Give God the glory, my friend!

I have judged no man's eternal soul as you falsely suggest, that will be a future event when the book of life is open.

Your beliefs are outside of Christian Orthodoxy, it's that simple

A literal, visible second coming of Jesus Christ and the glorified bodily resurrection of the believer, are foundations of Christianity, as seen within God's words that you deny, it's that simple

Believe as you will, nobody is putting fetters in chains on Amadeus, your accountable to God, as all men will be, including myself

 

[amadeus]

I have judged no man's eternal soul as you falsely suggest, that will be a future event when the book of life is open.

If you did not intend to do that, then I apologize. I don't always understand other people either.

Your beliefs are outside of Christian Orthodoxy, it's that simple

A literal, visible second coming of Jesus Christ and the glorified bodily resurrection of the believer, are foundations of Christianity, as seen within God's words that you deny, it's that simple

Believe as you will, nobody is putting fetters in chains on Amadeus, your accountable to God, as all men will be, including myself

I leave you with your conclusions then....

I am guessing that you will never be answering my questions. When you draw conclusions based on incomplete information about me that seems to be OK with you. I will try not to do that to you. I hope that one day you will believe the words written by the prophet Isaiah and the Apostle Paul. When you do then maybe God will also clarify for you where Jesus was coming from and where we should be going to... You say you care about what I believe, but I have seen no evidence of it...

 

[keithr]

I'd particularly like a response about my objections to the 'mortal spirit beings', and the servants but not sons ideas.

I'm sorry but I've not been able to spend much/any time in this forum recently. I've missed a couple of days and there have been about 60 replies in that time, so I'm struggling to keep up with the discussion!

I thought I had answered your question with my previous reply, i.e. I said, "The only people who are promised an immortal nature are Christians who remain overcomers until their death/rapture". The only group (human or angelic) that is promised a change of nature and gaining immortality is Chirstians during what I referred to as the Gospel Age, which ends with the first resurrection when they will be transformed to gain that immortal nature (as a new creation in Christ).

Paul, talking to Christians about what their resurrection bodies would be like, said :

1Cor 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

I see no independent Scriptural proof that the First resurrection is before the last tribulation. This is only Scriptural 'theory' to me, not proof.

Chapters two and three of Revelation are the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. These letters are also prophetic of the church during the Gospel age. Then in Rev. 4:1 John describes a voice from heaven saying “Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter”, i.e. he was shown (symbolically) events that will happen at the end of the Gospel age, after the rapture (“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”, 1 Th. 4:17).

John is then shown a vision of the throne of God, and he sees that around the throne there were twenty-four seats, and “upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold” (Rev 4:4). These twenty-four elders represent a group, and we know that they cannot be tribulation believers because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:13-14. They are not angels because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:11 (“all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts”). They are not the nation of Israel because they’re distinct from them (Rev. 7 & 12).

Their distinguishing characteristics are that they are on thrones (“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, Rev. 3:21), they have white clothes (“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment”, Rev 3:5), they have gold crowns (“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life”, Rev. 2:10), and they sing the song of the redeemed (“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”, Rev 5:9,10). Note that they’re made kings and priests (and they’re not from Israel only, but from every nation), and only three groups are kings and priests: Melchisidec, Jesus and the Church. John identifies himself and the Church with this group too (Rev. 1:4-6 “John to the seven churches which are in Asia”, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”). These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church.

Note that Rev. 4:5 says “there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne”, and Rev. 1:20 identifies these, “the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (NIV). So the churches that were on the earth in chapter one are in heaven in chapter four, which is in harmony with chapter four describing events after the rapture.

In the first three chapters of Revelation there are twenty-four titles of Jesus, which are all gentile or church type identifiers. From chapter four on (from the rapture on), the style is very Jewish, e.g. Rev. 5:5 “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof”, and Rev. 5:6 “stood a Lamb as it had been slain” – the titles in bold are Jewish titles of the Messiah.

Chapter five describes Jesus unsealing and opening the scroll. Note for later that verse 8 says that the twenty-four elders each had harps, not palms. Chapters 6 to 19 describes the events that will occur in the 7 year period after the rapture (the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, Dan. 9:24-27). Jesus described this period, the “Great Tribulation”, in Mat. 24:14-22, which ends with “except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened”. This Great Tribulation affects the whole world, but particularly it affects Israel, hence in verse 16 He says, “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”. This shall be worse for Israel than the Holocaust, during which one in three Jews were killed. According to Zechariah 13:8,9 two out of three shall be killed (“And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein”).

The purpose of the Tribulation is part explained by Hosea 5:15: “I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly” (ASV). It is the day of the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16,17), His wrath against them who rejected Him and had Him crucified. It is also described as the day of the LORD, “Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he will make an end, yea, a terrible end, of all them that dwell in the land” (Zep. 1:18, ASV). (John says in Rev. 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, i.e. he was about to see things pertaining to this time of tribulation.)

Note that the Tribulation doesn’t begin until the Lamb opens the seal, and the Lamb doesn’t receive the scroll until after the 24 elders have cast their crowns before the throne (Rev. 4:10), so the Church has been raptured or resurrected before the Tribulation starts, and the Church does not go through the Tribulation.

Revelation chapter 6 ends with “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Then chapter 7 answers that question. It tells that there will be some special servants who will be sealed - “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” (Rev. 7:3). It also tells us “the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Rev. 7:4). It then goes on to detail that there will be 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (totalling 144,000). They are all Jews.

The work of the sealed servants then results in a lot of people being saved – “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands” (Rev. 7:9). As mentioned above, the 24 elders, representing the Church from before the rapture, held harps in their hands (Rev. 5:8), whereas these saved people (now in heaven, before the throne) hold palms. These people are a different group (which is why John didn’t know who they were – Rev. 7:13,14); they are people who are saved out of the Tribulation as a result of the evangelising work of the 144,000 sealed servants from Israel, and they are before the throne of God “and serve him day and night” (Rev. 7:15).

Rev. 7:17 says that “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”. Why were they crying? Probably over lost opportunities. They may regret not having become Christians before the rapture and the Great Tribulation had started, so they missed out on becoming one of the elders, i.e. members of the body Christ and the bride of the Lamb. They missed out on the greater glory of sitting on thrones and reigning as kings and priests.

[I'll continue in a separate reply - this has become too large for one reply!]

 

[keithr]

--Firstly, the 'Gentile' church never existed. It is the church of Christ, where their is no more Gentile-Jew. Just souls.

I'd agree with that. I've never referred to the church as the Gentile Church, i've always just said the church or Christians. All of the early Christians were Jews (as was Jesus!).

--Secondly, a Gospel 'age' does not exist except in that it is age without end. It is the Gospel of the Lamb that continues to be preached, and all believers in Him that are washed in His blood are members of His body to be resurrected in like manner as the rest. Sons born again and servants of God. No Scripture suggests you can confess Jesus and even die for His name's sake, yet not be resurrected in His likeness. As though we could die for Christ, but not be dead in Christ.

Response please.

Only those believers who believe before the first resurrection (and rapture) takes place are promised that they can become sons and heirs of God:

John 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

After Jesus has returned to collect the church (resurrection and rapture) the opportunity to join that group has ended - the acceptable time of sacrifice will have come to an end.

Those who become believers during the great tribulation are a separate group who it states will have a spiritual resurrection and will live in heaven, but they won't be members of the body of Christ, and therefore they won't have the immortal divine nature, and won't be sons of God - hence they willi be servants ("Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple", Rev. 7:15). Only those who are resurrected in the first resurrection will gain the immortal divine nature.

--Thirdly, the prophesied 'last chance' of the last days of the fleshly seed is come with Jesus' first coming. It came with Jesus as Messiah to confirm it (Rom 15:8), and He came to His own first who received it not and rejected Him first (John 1). And so His last days coming has been also for the 'Gentiles' and any fleshly Jew that repents. The Messiah came to fulfill the prophecies of the last days to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. He came to the Jew first, and then also the Gentile, and not 'then back to the Jew only'.

The last days began with the 1st coming of the Lord, and are still here, and will not end until the Lord's return, immediately following the last great persecution of His people, whether Jew or Greek, on earth.

Response please

Romans 11 (WEB):
25) For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,

[The fullness of the gentiles ends with the first resurrection.]​

26) and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27) This is my covenant with them, when I will take away their sins.”

 

[robert derrick]

I'm sorry but I've not been able to spend much/any time in this forum recently. I've missed a couple of days and there have been about 60 replies in that time, so I'm struggling to keep up with the discussion!

I thought I had answered your question with my previous reply, i.e. I said, "The only people who are promised an immortal nature are Christians who remain overcomers until their death/rapture". The only group (human or angelic) that is promised a change of nature and gaining immortality is Chirstians during what I referred to as the Gospel Age, which ends with the first resurrection when they will be transformed to gain that immortal nature (as a new creation in Christ).

Paul, talking to Christians about what their resurrection bodies would be like, said :

1Cor 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Chapters two and three of Revelation are the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. These letters are also prophetic of the church during the Gospel age. Then in Rev. 4:1 John describes a voice from heaven saying “Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter”, i.e. he was shown (symbolically) events that will happen at the end of the Gospel age, after the rapture (“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”, 1 Th. 4:17).

John is then shown a vision of the throne of God, and he sees that around the throne there were twenty-four seats, and “upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold” (Rev 4:4). These twenty-four elders represent a group, and we know that they cannot be tribulation believers because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:13-14. They are not angels because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:11 (“all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts”). They are not the nation of Israel because they’re distinct from them (Rev. 7 & 12).

Their distinguishing characteristics are that they are on thrones (“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, Rev. 3:21), they have white clothes (“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment”, Rev 3:5), they have gold crowns (“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life”, Rev. 2:10), and they sing the song of the redeemed (“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”, Rev 5:9,10). Note that they’re made kings and priests (and they’re not from Israel only, but from every nation), and only three groups are kings and priests: Melchisidec, Jesus and the Church. John identifies himself and the Church with this group too (Rev. 1:4-6 “John to the seven churches which are in Asia”, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”). These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church.

Note that Rev. 4:5 says “there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne”, and Rev. 1:20 identifies these, “the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (NIV). So the churches that were on the earth in chapter one are in heaven in chapter four, which is in harmony with chapter four describing events after the rapture.

In the first three chapters of Revelation there are twenty-four titles of Jesus, which are all gentile or church type identifiers. From chapter four on (from the rapture on), the style is very Jewish, e.g. Rev. 5:5 “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof”, and Rev. 5:6 “stood a Lamb as it had been slain” – the titles in bold are Jewish titles of the Messiah.

Chapter five describes Jesus unsealing and opening the scroll. Note for later that verse 8 says that the twenty-four elders each had harps, not palms. Chapters 6 to 19 describes the events that will occur in the 7 year period after the rapture (the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, Dan. 9:24-27). Jesus described this period, the “Great Tribulation”, in Mat. 24:14-22, which ends with “except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened”. This Great Tribulation affects the whole world, but particularly it affects Israel, hence in verse 16 He says, “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”. This shall be worse for Israel than the Holocaust, during which one in three Jews were killed. According to Zechariah 13:8,9 two out of three shall be killed (“And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein”).

The purpose of the Tribulation is part explained by Hosea 5:15: “I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly” (ASV). It is the day of the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16,17), His wrath against them who rejected Him and had Him crucified. It is also described as the day of the LORD, “Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he will make an end, yea, a terrible end, of all them that dwell in the land” (Zep. 1:18, ASV). (John says in Rev. 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, i.e. he was about to see things pertaining to this time of tribulation.)

Note that the Tribulation doesn’t begin until the Lamb opens the seal, and the Lamb doesn’t receive the scroll until after the 24 elders have cast their crowns before the throne (Rev. 4:10), so the Church has been raptured or resurrected before the Tribulation starts, and the Church does not go through the Tribulation.

Revelation chapter 6 ends with “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Then chapter 7 answers that question. It tells that there will be some special servants who will be sealed - “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” (Rev. 7:3). It also tells us “the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Rev. 7:4). It then goes on to detail that there will be 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (totalling 144,000). They are all Jews.

The work of the sealed servants then results in a lot of people being saved – “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands” (Rev. 7:9). As mentioned above, the 24 elders, representing the Church from before the rapture, held harps in their hands (Rev. 5:8), whereas these saved people (now in heaven, before the throne) hold palms. These people are a different group (which is why John didn’t know who they were – Rev. 7:13,14); they are people who are saved out of the Tribulation as a result of the evangelising work of the 144,000 sealed servants from Israel, and they are before the throne of God “and serve him day and night” (Rev. 7:15).

Rev. 7:17 says that “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”. Why were they crying? Probably over lost opportunities. They may regret not having become Christians before the rapture and the Great Tribulation had started, so they missed out on becoming one of the elders, i.e. members of the body Christ and the bride of the Lamb. They missed out on the greater glory of sitting on thrones and reigning as kings and priests.

[I'll continue in a separate reply - this has become too large for one reply!]

"The only people who are promised an immortal nature are Christians who remain overcomers until their death/rapture". The only group (human or angelic) that is promised a change of nature and gaining immortality is Chirstians during what I referred to as the Gospel Age, which ends with the first resurrection when they will be transformed to gain that immortal nature (as a new creation in Christ)."

I think I need just a little more help here.
1. We are already partakers of the divine nature. And all the dead in Christ and those alive on earth will be taken up together in the Frist Resurrection, which includes immediate change from corruption and mortality to incorruption and immortality.

Are you make a difference between the 'only people' and the 'only group'?

 

[robert derrick]

I'm sorry but I've not been able to spend much/any time in this forum recently. I've missed a couple of days and there have been about 60 replies in that time, so I'm struggling to keep up with the discussion!

I thought I had answered your question with my previous reply, i.e. I said, "The only people who are promised an immortal nature are Christians who remain overcomers until their death/rapture". The only group (human or angelic) that is promised a change of nature and gaining immortality is Chirstians during what I referred to as the Gospel Age, which ends with the first resurrection when they will be transformed to gain that immortal nature (as a new creation in Christ).

Paul, talking to Christians about what their resurrection bodies would be like, said :

1Cor 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Chapters two and three of Revelation are the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. These letters are also prophetic of the church during the Gospel age. Then in Rev. 4:1 John describes a voice from heaven saying “Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter”, i.e. he was shown (symbolically) events that will happen at the end of the Gospel age, after the rapture (“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”, 1 Th. 4:17).

John is then shown a vision of the throne of God, and he sees that around the throne there were twenty-four seats, and “upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold” (Rev 4:4). These twenty-four elders represent a group, and we know that they cannot be tribulation believers because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:13-14. They are not angels because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:11 (“all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts”). They are not the nation of Israel because they’re distinct from them (Rev. 7 & 12).

Their distinguishing characteristics are that they are on thrones (“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, Rev. 3:21), they have white clothes (“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment”, Rev 3:5), they have gold crowns (“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life”, Rev. 2:10), and they sing the song of the redeemed (“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”, Rev 5:9,10). Note that they’re made kings and priests (and they’re not from Israel only, but from every nation), and only three groups are kings and priests: Melchisidec, Jesus and the Church. John identifies himself and the Church with this group too (Rev. 1:4-6 “John to the seven churches which are in Asia”, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”). These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church.

Note that Rev. 4:5 says “there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne”, and Rev. 1:20 identifies these, “the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (NIV). So the churches that were on the earth in chapter one are in heaven in chapter four, which is in harmony with chapter four describing events after the rapture.

In the first three chapters of Revelation there are twenty-four titles of Jesus, which are all gentile or church type identifiers. From chapter four on (from the rapture on), the style is very Jewish, e.g. Rev. 5:5 “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof”, and Rev. 5:6 “stood a Lamb as it had been slain” – the titles in bold are Jewish titles of the Messiah.

Chapter five describes Jesus unsealing and opening the scroll. Note for later that verse 8 says that the twenty-four elders each had harps, not palms. Chapters 6 to 19 describes the events that will occur in the 7 year period after the rapture (the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, Dan. 9:24-27). Jesus described this period, the “Great Tribulation”, in Mat. 24:14-22, which ends with “except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened”. This Great Tribulation affects the whole world, but particularly it affects Israel, hence in verse 16 He says, “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”. This shall be worse for Israel than the Holocaust, during which one in three Jews were killed. According to Zechariah 13:8,9 two out of three shall be killed (“And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein”).

The purpose of the Tribulation is part explained by Hosea 5:15: “I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly” (ASV). It is the day of the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16,17), His wrath against them who rejected Him and had Him crucified. It is also described as the day of the LORD, “Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he will make an end, yea, a terrible end, of all them that dwell in the land” (Zep. 1:18, ASV). (John says in Rev. 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, i.e. he was about to see things pertaining to this time of tribulation.)

Note that the Tribulation doesn’t begin until the Lamb opens the seal, and the Lamb doesn’t receive the scroll until after the 24 elders have cast their crowns before the throne (Rev. 4:10), so the Church has been raptured or resurrected before the Tribulation starts, and the Church does not go through the Tribulation.

Revelation chapter 6 ends with “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Then chapter 7 answers that question. It tells that there will be some special servants who will be sealed - “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” (Rev. 7:3). It also tells us “the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Rev. 7:4). It then goes on to detail that there will be 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (totalling 144,000). They are all Jews.

The work of the sealed servants then results in a lot of people being saved – “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands” (Rev. 7:9). As mentioned above, the 24 elders, representing the Church from before the rapture, held harps in their hands (Rev. 5:8), whereas these saved people (now in heaven, before the throne) hold palms. These people are a different group (which is why John didn’t know who they were – Rev. 7:13,14); they are people who are saved out of the Tribulation as a result of the evangelising work of the 144,000 sealed servants from Israel, and they are before the throne of God “and serve him day and night” (Rev. 7:15).

Rev. 7:17 says that “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”. Why were they crying? Probably over lost opportunities. They may regret not having become Christians before the rapture and the Great Tribulation had started, so they missed out on becoming one of the elders, i.e. members of the body Christ and the bride of the Lamb. They missed out on the greater glory of sitting on thrones and reigning as kings and priests.

[I'll continue in a separate reply - this has become too large for one reply!]

"These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church."

I have no problem with that. In fact one better could be that every Christian will be sitting on one of those throne at least one time in heaven, like a rotation of blessedness in glory.

As you said, every Christian will be seated in the exacrt same throne as Jesus sits, which is the exact same throne given Him by the Father. You could say every Christian will first be sitting in the God's own throne with the Father and the Son. And perhaps even in the middle between the Two.

With that in mind, what big and special deal is it then to sit in a throne around the Throne, when You've been in the midst of the Throne.

Otherwise, I no longer accept the transitional thinking of all events from Ch 4 are after the First Resurrection. It's just as easy to say that God made John temporarily immortal to take him into heaven and show these things. A type of pre-resurrection taste of glory...

 

[robert derrick]

I'd agree with that. I've never referred to the church as the Gentile Church, i've always just said the church or Christians. All of the early Christians were Jews (as was Jesus!).


Only those believers who believe before the first resurrection (and rapture) takes place are promised that they can become sons and heirs of God:

John 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

After Jesus has returned to collect the church (resurrection and rapture) the opportunity to join that group has ended - the acceptable time of sacrifice will have come to an end.

Those who become believers during the great tribulation are a separate group who it states will have a spiritual resurrection and will live in heaven, but they won't be members of the body of Christ, and therefore they won't have the immortal divine nature, and won't be sons of God - hence they willi be servants ("Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple", Rev. 7:15). Only those who are resurrected in the first resurrection will gain the immortal divine nature.


Romans 11 (WEB):
25) For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,

[The fullness of the gentiles ends with the first resurrection.]​

26) and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27) This is my covenant with them, when I will take away their sins.”

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I know you have spent a lot of time here, and I appreciate it, but I still don't see you Scripturally answering my objections.

1. There is no Scripture for there being saints in Christ Jesus keeping the faith of Jesus by the hearing of His Gospel, yet not being born of God, nor members of His body, nor saved by grace for that matter. The saints of the tribulation are every bit as much believers in Jesus as at any time, if not more so.

Just saying it must be so, because the resurrection has passed, is a construct based on un unproven theory.

2. The Gospel 'age' has not passed by the tribulation, because it is an age without end. That Gospel of Jesus that Paul preached will be in the tribulation to the very end, when it is preached from mid-heaven to all inhabiters on the earth, and Jesus will be preaching His Gospel throughout eternity by the very marks of the Cross upon His resurrected body.

3. The eternal children of God with whom God will personally be their God are called His servants, even as they are sons. Once again, no scripture making difference between saints of God by the faith of Jesus born of Him, and saints of God not born but only serving Him.

4. And the church time of the Gentiles must come in with resurrection before All Israel will be saved, which are the Jews of tribulation.

So tribulation saved Jews will not be part of the body of Christ, only heavenly servants. The salvation of all Israel, which is the point of all prophecies of the last days, will not be a deliverance unto resurrection of the just. Which is the whole promise of God pertaining to His people Israel, beginning in Daniel 12.

 

[keithr]

"The only people who are promised an immortal nature are Christians who remain overcomers until their death/rapture". The only group (human or angelic) that is promised a change of nature and gaining immortality is Chirstians during what I referred to as the Gospel Age, which ends with the first resurrection when they will be transformed to gain that immortal nature (as a new creation in Christ)."

I think I need just a little more help here.
1. We are already partakers of the divine nature. And all the dead in Christ and those alive on earth will be taken up together in the Frist Resurrection, which includes immediate change from corruption and mortality to incorruption and immortality.

Are you make a difference between the 'only people' and the 'only group'?

No, I was referring to the same people. To put it another way:

The only humans that have a chance of a change of nature to the divine immortal nature, are Christians who live before the first resurrection and rapture. No other humans or spirit beings will have that opportunity. The only other people that have an opportunity to a change of nature, to a mortal spirit nature, are those who come to believe during the Great Tribulation.

 

[keithr]

"These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church."

I have no problem with that. In fact one better could be that every Christian will be sitting on one of those throne at least one time in heaven, like a rotation of blessedness in glory.

Don't get hung up on the number of elders and thrones - it's symbolic (David organised the priests into 24 courses in 1 Chronicles 24). There will be more then 24 people in the body of Christ!

Otherwise, I no longer accept the transitional thinking of all events from Ch 4 are after the First Resurrection. It's just as easy to say that God made John temporarily immortal to take him into heaven and show these things. A type of pre-resurrection taste of glory...

John didn't undergo any changes or time travel - he was seeing visions (or dreams).

Chapter 4 starts with John writing "After these things", i.e. after the history of the Church is laid out in Jesus' 7 letters to the 7 churches, he then sees the resurrected church in heaven. In chapter 5 he sees Jesus taking the book/scroll. In chapter 6 he sees Jesus opening the scrolls. In chapter 7 he again starts with "After these things", and he sees the 144,000 Israelites being sealed on the earth, and in verse 9 "after these things" he sees the great multitude in heaven, those that came out of the great tribulation as believers in Jesus (and came out of every nation and tribes). It seems quite clear to me that he is describing a sequence of events, and the first resurrection has clearly happened before the events described in chapter 4 because the resurrected church is there in heaven. Why do you not accept that?

 

[Robert Gwin]

"sometime after that we believe the first resurrection happened"

Are you saying that the resurrection has past? (2 Tim 2) And afterwards they who die in Christ join them in that 'resurrection' or resurrected state (2 Cor 5)?

And then in future will be the changing of them that remain and are alive, for all then to meet Him in the air at His return from heaven?

Yes sir, we believe the first resurrection has taken place. I think you understand our understanding.

 

[robert derrick]

Don't get hung up on the number of elders and thrones - it's symbolic (David organised the priests into 24 courses in 1 Chronicles 24). There will be more then 24 people in the body of Christ!

John didn't undergo any changes or time travel - he was seeing visions (or dreams).

Chapter 4 starts with John writing "After these things", i.e. after the history of the Church is laid out in Jesus' 7 letters to the 7 churches, he then sees the resurected church in heaven. In chapter 5 he sees Jesus taking the book/scroll. In chapter 6 he sees Jesus opening the scrolls. In chapter 7 he again starts with "After these things", and he sees the 144,000 Israelites being sealed on the earth, and in verse 9 "after these things" he sees the great multitude in heaven, those that came out of the great tribulation as believers in Jesus. It seems quite clear to me that he is describing a sequence of events, and the first resurrection has clearly happened before the events described in chapter 4 because the resurrected church is there in heaven. Why do you not accept that?

I can accept it, because it's what I was always taught to believe, and it is not unreasonable and certainly not unheard of. However, I have one serious issue with a pre-trib rapture that has not been sufficiently explained by Scripture:

You state the traditional single resurrection event before the tribulation, and then 'propose' a group of Christians that are not in the body of Christ: human spirit beings immortally in heaven as servants not sons.

Show me independent Scriptural proof that is possible. Show Scripture where believers in Jesus, saved saints according to His Gospel, are not born of God and members of His body, and only serve Him but not reign with Him.

Thank you, and I do appreciate your patience.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes sir, we believe the first resurrection has taken place. I think you understand our understanding.

Really? Ok. Explain how your belief at this time is any different from that false believe in Paul's time:

"Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Tim 2)

When did it occur, and who was in it?