Another one??
[sarcasm]OK, you're right, you know my heart, and I haven't got a clue about why I do or don't think as I do.[/sarcasm]
Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?
- Thread starter Phoneman777
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
[sarcasm]OK, you're right, you know my heart, and I haven't got a clue about why I do or don't think as I do.[/sarcasm]
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
And your scriptural evidence for Sunday sacredness?
Exodus 20. The theory that the ten commandments was retired, has no more scriptural justification than Sunday keeping or the "Jesus is my Sabbath" theory. The apostles and the early church held to the status quo regarding Sabbath keeping. They had no issue with the Sabbath such as you have... The judaizers and Pharisaical legalists were hell bent on demanding oriole get circumcised, but where was the controversy in the NT over the Christian Church desecrating the Sabbath? There was none, because the early church continued to observe it as evidenced by the number of times Paul and the apostles met on that day, even with the gentiles, and even in gentile cities.
The Sabbath wasn't abandoned until the 3rd or 4th century, and then only in Rome. That should tell you something. And it was only after the council of Laodicea that persecution arose against Sabbath keepers. Christian Sabbath keepers. Seems you have adopted that Catholic tradition of accusing Sabbath keepers of being unchristian heretics and legalists.
The apostles clearly didn't see the need to re-emphasize something which was the identifying mark for Judaism for 1000s of years. The gentiles knew full well what the Sabbath was, they adopted it for themselves the moment they joined Christ.
KJV Acts 13:42-44
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
You asked for evidence in scripture, you got it. You want evidence for the history concerning the rest that I said, I can give that to.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"The Mosaic Law was written by the hand of Moses, written on scrolls, placed outside the Ark, and was against them by virtue of the penalties and curses contained therein (Deuteronomy 31:24-26 KJV). But in contrast, the Ten Commandment Law of God was written with His finger (Exodus 31:18 KJV), on both sides of stone tablets (Exodus 32:15 KJV), placed inside the Ark (Exodus 25:16 KJV), and contained blessings, not curses (Exodus 20:11 KJV; Exodus 20:12 KJV)."
False teachers have the annoying habit of not knowing what they are talking about, because they don't really care exactly what the Scriptures say:
1. "the Ten Commandment Law of God was written with His finger (Exodus 31:18 KJV), on both sides of stone tablets (Exodus 32:15 KJV), placed inside the Ark"
The tables written by the finger of God, the work of God with the writing of God, were broken up by Moses upon his 1st return from the mount. They never made it into the ark period. (Ex 32: 15-16) (Deut 9:10-17)
This blatant error is just sloppiness of those that don't really care about accuracy, so long as it tickles their ears real good to hear it.
The tables that did made it into the ark were those hewn by Moses and written by Moses during his next assent to the mount:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest." (Ex 34: 1)
And He ended up having Moses write them:
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” (Ex 34:27-28)
Perhaps the Lord decided that Moses ought to do the work the 2nd time around, because he broke the 1st set in a fit of anger.
Last edited:
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
2. "The Mosaic Law was written by the hand of Moses, written on scrolls, placed outside the Ark."
This 'Mosaic law', which is called by Scripture the book of the law, which was likewise written by Moses, was put in the side of the ark, not beside the ark. (Deut 31:24)
This error is purposed wresting of Scripture away from what it really said. The proof being:
That book of the law that Moses had the Levites put into the ark, was the called 'the book of Testimony', and the Lord had Moses write it in the tabernacle during the next 40 years in the wilderness, by which reason the Lord calls it 'the ark of the Testimony' (Ex 40:21):
“And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.” (Ex 25:21-22)
During Moses' first assent this is what God foretold Moses He would do, once Moses had the tabernacle built according to His commandment. It is the greatest reason why Moses was obedient in perfect detail to the pattern shown on the mount (Ex 25:40): So that He could spend much more time with God face to face speaking as a friend. (Ex 33:11)
“And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.” (Deut 31:24-26)
This written book of the testimony was placed beside the written tables of stone, in the side of the ark. And in another place Scripture simply says this testimony was put in the ark, period. (Ex 25:21) And they would be there for a witness against the disobedient in future.
They were not sitting around outside the ark being exposed to the elements, as well as the hands of men, especially by such men we see here, who openly handle the Word of God deceitfully (2 Cor 4:2)
And those tables of stone are the written tables of the law, because it was the commandments and the law that God had first written with His own writing, and then had Moses write the same again in Moses' writing:
“And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.” (Ex 24:12)
Moses didn't spend 40 days and nights just writing 10 Commandments, and it is clear he spent the entire time writing the law and commandments of the Lord.
Last edited:
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
3. "The Mosaic Law was against them by virtue of the penalties and curses contained therein...the Ten Commandments Law of God was written contained blessings, not curses."
And this is the grand illusion of the law of God being separated into two parts, Mosaicly carnal and Morally eternal, so much so that they needed to be physically separated outside and inside the ark. (Would God really ostracize His own law??)
Paul speaks plainly that the ministry of Christ and the law of Christ in His New Covenant is absolutely different and separate from the ministry of the Old Covenant of commandments and law of Moses, which have been utterly done away:
"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Cor 3:3-11)
Paul is speaking distinctly of the 2nd set of stone tables brought down by Moses and placed in the ark of the covenant (Numbers 10:33), and they are called the ministration of death and condemnation, not of 'blessings'.
And they are done away with their glory, and are nothing to be compared to nor 'renewed' in the New ministration of Spirit and of Life, even as the blood of bulls and goats have nothing to do with, nor ought be mixed in, with the blood of the Lamb.
And so, the great 'irrefutable proof' of Sabbath-keeping law for Christians, which has not one single Scripture for us in the ministry of the risen Saviour and Christ, is utterly false.
And this Judaist preacher of it is an absurd reader of words, with less comprehension of what is written than that of a child, because of the cult-like clinging to personally favorite error.
Once the heart forsakes Scripture, the mind goes blind with ignorance.
Last edited:
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The only lineage Rome can lay claim to with any surety is to Justinian, the emperor who bestowed upon the bishop of Rome secular and ecclesiastical authority. "And the dragon (pagan Rome) have him his seat, power, and great authority".
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
I once did some history teaching at a Catholic high school. I asked them what they learn from the Bible in their theology classes. They said they only study the church fathers...
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Sola scriptura denouncing by sola popura denunciationsIt's a can of worms...
First the claim, then a "reference" to a scripture that says nothing about the claim, before long you'll be having your ears tickled with, Solo Scriptra denouncing.
round about the circle it goes...
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
You don't know what you're talking about, as do most wanna be teachers of the law.
I am not looking for a hold over custom of that which was once law: keeping Sabbath, or going to synagogue or church on a 7th day. That is custom that many follow willingly and gladly, and is thankfully available without persecution for many to do so as they wish, as do I.
So then, show me the Scripture where Christians in obedience to our risen Saviour must keep Sabbath or be transgressors. One such verse will be good enough for me, and I will repent and gladly go to church on the 7th day out of necessity of obedience, and not just by personal desire.
Until then, keep your history and traditions of men, and I'll keep the faith and the law of Christ.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"The apostles clearly didn't see the need to re-emphasize something which was the identifying mark for Judaism for 1000s of years."
Once again, you have no idea what you are saying. The apostles didn't write the doctrine and law of Christ according to what they saw 'the need for' or not. That is an utterly ridiculous thing to say, and very humanistic in thought.
The apostles were personally chosen by Jesus to write exactly what He wanted written for His law.
The doctrine of Christ is also called the doctrine of the apostles, not because the apostles wrote doctrine according to what they 'thought was needed', but because they wrote exactly what Christ told them was needed.
"The gentiles knew full well what the Sabbath was, they adopted it for themselves the moment they joined Christ."
'Adopting' a practice is one thing. Conforming to obedience of law is entirely another.
Once again, you sincerely are playing with fire, and making yourself sound strange and foreign to Scriptural rule in the process.
"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not." (Lev 10)
This is called offering one's own opinions and desires and traditions and historical attitudes for doctrine and law of Christ, and putting it before the Lord and His believers as necessary to obey.
Offer instead one verse where Christians are commanded by law of Christ to keep Sabbath every 7th day. Just one.
Last edited:
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
And where is the Commandment whereby you justify neglecting the Sabbath? You say that I am presenting man made opinion and an unholy offering to the Lord as did Nadab and Abihu, yet can you point out in scripture where the Sabbath was made an unholy thing? If you want to use that as an analogy, fine: the fire being offered here is holy. Not my observance, not my obedience, because anything I offer of my own is nothing, but what I offer is what the Lord has given me. He is Lord. Lord of me, and Lord of the Sabbath, which He made and gave as a gift for mankind. The Sabbath was made for man He said. I simply say thank you, and use it as best I can for the use for which it was intended. Spending one full day, a day He made holy, with my Savior. No distractions, no worldly cares to intervene, just Him and me. He joins with me in doing that which is uplifting for myself and others. It's a time of rest...a time of recharging. A day like no other. It's already holy. I endeavor to keep it that way.
What you do with it is entirely up to you. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of those who declare the Sabbath extinct, while observing a pagan day and a so called "Jesus is my Sabbath rest" as if either of those theories are biblical and actually replaces a day made holy by God. You may like to think there is no justification for keeping Sabbath once a week on the seventh day. And you may even work yourself up to a state of righteous indignation as a means of defending yourself and justifying your reasons for ignoring it... Tell it to God. Seriously. Present your reasons to Him.
Sabbath COMMANDS were ONLY for Israel. Nobody else!
Exodus 31:15 (NKJV)
15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I have some bad news for you ... not only can (to be able to), but do.
1 John 1:5-10 thru 1 John 2:1-2 [NASB]
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
So I really can SIN and still be a christian loved by God. My status is not the result of MY sinless perfection ... it is because of the sinless perfection of Jesus Christ. So the answer is absolutely "YES, we can really sin (and probably do), God still loves us, and we are still the 'sheep' of Jesus Christ."1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
- I walk in the light ... but my walk is not perfect (Jesus walked perfectly in the light for me)
- HIS BLOOD cleanses us "from all sins"
- I confess my sins to MY GREAT HIGH PRIEST (see Hebrews) who has the real power to forgive (and Jesus DOES forgive my sins)
John 3:18 says "he who is believing in him is not judged" [Young's Literal Translation], so is that only because those who "believe" have obtained sinless perfection in all thoughts and deeds? Rather, I think that there is no judgement because we are loved by the one called to pass judgement with an inexhaustible LOVE (Romans 8:38-39).
I'm not disputing that we can sin. OSASers claim they can sin but NEVER lose their salvation. But they pick and choose which sins they can commit.I have some bad news for you ... not only can (to be able to), but do.
1 John 1:5-10 thru 1 John 2:1-2 [NASB]
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.So I really can SIN and still be a christian loved by God. My status is not the result of MY sinless perfection ... it is because of the sinless perfection of Jesus Christ. So the answer is absolutely "YES, we can really sin (and probably do), God still loves us, and we are still the 'sheep' of Jesus Christ."
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
- I walk in the light ... but my walk is not perfect (Jesus walked perfectly in the light for me)
- HIS BLOOD cleanses us "from all sins"
- I confess my sins to MY GREAT HIGH PRIEST (see Hebrews) who has the real power to forgive (and Jesus DOES forgive my sins)
John 3:18 says "he who is believing in him is not judged" [Young's Literal Translation], so is that only because those who "believe" have obtained sinless perfection in all thoughts and deeds? Rather, I think that there is no judgement because we are loved by the one called to pass judgement with an inexhaustible LOVE (Romans 8:38-39).
Matthew 12:32 (NKJV)
32 Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
You can be saved without a priest?
There is only one savior and he is a Priest, high priest, now who are the low priests?
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
A commandment to justify neglect? Like: Thou art not required to... or, Thou mayest not do... or Thou mayest neglect...?
You talk about the Sabbath as a free gift available for the taking and using as a blessing, and what anyone does with it is entirely up to them.
Ok, perhaps I am mistaken and owe you an apology for misreading you.
The Sabbath day today in the law of Christ and the New Testament of our risen Saviour is a gift. Not a commandment. If we choose to partake, we are blessed. If we choose to work, we are not as blessed, but are not unholy transgressors.
Correct?
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
I have some bad news for you ... not only can (to be able to), but do.
1 John 1:5-10 thru 1 John 2:1-2 [NASB]
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.So I really can SIN and still be a christian loved by God. My status is not the result of MY sinless perfection ... it is because of the sinless perfection of Jesus Christ. So the answer is absolutely "YES, we can really sin (and probably do), God still loves us, and we are still the 'sheep' of Jesus Christ."
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
- I walk in the light ... but my walk is not perfect (Jesus walked perfectly in the light for me)
- HIS BLOOD cleanses us "from all sins"
- I confess my sins to MY GREAT HIGH PRIEST (see Hebrews) who has the real power to forgive (and Jesus DOES forgive my sins)
John 3:18 says "he who is believing in him is not judged" [Young's Literal Translation], so is that only because those who "believe" have obtained sinless perfection in all thoughts and deeds? Rather, I think that there is no judgement because we are loved by the one called to pass judgement with an inexhaustible LOVE (Romans 8:38-39).
Can a drunkard or fornicator or idolater inherit the kingdom of God?
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"They had no issue with the Sabbath such as you have..."
This is the basic problem here. You are judging and accusing me of something that I am not guilty of.
I never said I work 7 days out of the week. I never said I have an issue with those who refuse to as a matter of faith in Christ.
I do not have an 'issue' with a Sabbath day. I have issue with people, such as yourself, who preach all Christians must keep a Sabbath day, else be guilty of violating the law of Christ.
If I am mistaken, then correct me. State yourself plainly: Is it a transgression of God's commandment to work on a Sabbath day, or Seven days in a given week?
christ ascended to heaven! Now what
The king does not administer the kingdom he appoints a prime minister like Joseph under pharaoh and peter under Christ Isa 22:21-22 matt 16:18
Look it up
Similar threads
