The everlasting gospel, part 2: The fallen

[Timtofly]

Let me remind again what you said in your post #98...

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Timtofly said:

"Not that those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 cannot have offspring."

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What you said there goes directly against what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 that they don't marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

No, there is no offspring possible in the resurrection either.

No offspring in Paradise. Those on earth will be able to have offspring. Different resurrection for a different purpose. Revelation 20:4 has nothing whatsoever to do with the church. Has nothing to do with Adam’s offspring. It is as different from the church as the church was to the OT Law.

The coming kingdom is not what any one expects. It is observable. The church in Paradise is not observable.

 

[michaelvpardo]

No offspring in Paradise. Those on earth will be able to have offspring. Different resurrection for a different purpose. Revelation 20:4 has nothing whatsoever to do with the church. Has nothing to do with Adam’s offspring. It is as different from the church as the church was to the OT Law.

The coming kingdom is not what any one expects. It is observable. The church in Paradise is not observable.

When Jesus was "on the cross" and spoke with the two thieves crucified by His sides, He said to one,"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Now, we know that Jesus didn't ascend into heaven until after the resurrection so Paradise isn't in heaven. We don't have much in scripture that describes where the Lord went for those three days before His resurrection, but He must have been in paradise on the same day that He made that promise to the repentant thief.
So, what does scripture tell us?
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:9
And,
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water 1 Peter 3:18-20
I'm not seeing paradise mentioned in these verses, but we do have this story told about the rich man in torments and poor Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22
So this verse doesn't mention paradise either, but we might assume that Abraham's bosom is in paradise, but then we also have "father Abraham" saying:
And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. Luke 16:26
So it would appear that Abraham's bosom is located in the same place as hades, but separated by a "great gulf" which can't be crossed by men.
Is there anything else in scripture that supports this idea?
Actually, we have the passage about Saul visiting the witch of Endor seeking to speak with Samuel, who had already died.
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” 1 Samuel 28:13-15
So, where was Samuel? Before answering, please consider that the word "spirit" in verse 13 is actually from the Hebrew "Elohim."
Is there anything else in scripture that supports this idea?
I know of multiple verses, and from the book of the Revelation:
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:18
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Revelation 20:13
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14
None of these verses makes any mention of paradise, but all refer to death and hades as two distinct places, or personified as two separate persons.
Where do you find paradise in scripture? Where is it located as it clearly isn't in heaven (no one has ascended into heaven but the Lord.)
You repeatedly talk about paradise, yet there are very few mentions of this place in scripture. Bible Gateway, the somewhat unreliable search web site, finds only 4 mentions of paradise in scripture, none of them give a location for paradise and all are from the New Testament scriptures.

 

[David H.]

Where do you find paradise in scripture?

This verse comes to mind, do, not know if it has been brought up or not or if it is relevant to the OP?

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew22:30)

 

[michaelvpardo]

This verse comes to mind, do, not know if it has been brought up or not or if it is relevant to the OP?

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew22:30)

It's been thrown around a bit, but let me ask, what is the context? Most of us know who spoke it, but to whom was it spoken and why? What was the subject of the conversation?
I accept what Jesus said, because He said it. What we're trying to work out (at the moment) is where do children come from in Christ's millennial kingdom? Or do the scriptures that speak of children and offspring in the restored nation of Israel (after the judgment of the nations) even apply to the millennial kingdom?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I can always count on Isaiah for a good proof passage, but there are parallel passages among the prophets:
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them. Isaiah 65:20-23

 

[Timtofly]

When Jesus was "on the cross" and spoke with the two thieves crucified by His sides, He said to one,"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Now, we know that Jesus didn't ascend into heaven until after the resurrection so Paradise isn't in heaven. We don't have much in scripture that describes where the Lord went for those three days before His resurrection, but He must have been in paradise on the same day that He made that promise to the repentant thief.
So, what does scripture tell us?
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:9
And,
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water 1 Peter 3:18-20
I'm not seeing paradise mentioned in these verses, but we do have this story told about the rich man in torments and poor Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22
So this verse doesn't mention paradise either, but we might assume that Abraham's bosom is in paradise, but then we also have "father Abraham" saying:
And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. Luke 16:26
So it would appear that Abraham's bosom is located in the same place as hades, but separated by a "great gulf" which can't be crossed by men.
Is there anything else in scripture that supports this idea?
Actually, we have the passage about Saul visiting the witch of Endor seeking to speak with Samuel, who had already died.
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” 1 Samuel 28:13-15
So, where was Samuel? Before answering, please consider that the word "spirit" in verse 13 is actually from the Hebrew "Elohim."
Is there anything else in scripture that supports this idea?
I know of multiple verses, and from the book of the Revelation:
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:18
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Revelation 20:13
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14
None of these verses makes any mention of paradise, but all refer to death and hades as two distinct places, or personified as two separate persons.
Where do you find paradise in scripture? Where is it located as it clearly isn't in heaven (no one has ascended into heaven but the Lord.)
You repeatedly talk about paradise, yet there are very few mentions of this place in scripture. Bible Gateway, the somewhat unreliable search web site, finds only 4 mentions of paradise in scripture, none of them give a location for paradise and all are from the New Testament scriptures.

It was not just Jesus the man on the Cross. It was Jesus the Lord God on the Cross. God was with the thief that day in Paradise. Besides Moses and Elijah, the thief was the first one in this group:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"

This is Paradise. The Cross opened Paradise. Adam was banned from Paradise. Abraham's bosom was temporary in sheol, until the Cross. Of course Paradise was not mentioned in the account of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom is not Paradise. Abraham's bosom was the valley of the shadow of death. A part of sheol, but with a great gulf between the two areas. The Cross was the removal of the church from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. That is the reason the thief could be with God in Paradise that day. The body of Jesus was in the tomb. God was in Paradise, not sent to the tomb.

Paul called Paradise the third heaven:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

The third mention is in Revelation 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

The tree of life has always been in the Garden, Paradise named by God on the Cross. The tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom. Paradise was removed before or at the Flood. Abraham's bosom did not have to happen after Abraham. People on earth went somewhere when they physically died. It was not Paradise. Because all had to wait until the Cross, to enter Paradise.

Let us look at what the thief asked, the general thought of that generation:

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Jesus completely changes the subject? What is the answer? Most were looking for "the kingdom" to come to earth. The 4 Gospels also had Jesus talking about a kingdom. The answer was not, "Today you will enter the kingdom." The thief was asking about the wrong kingdom. Why would the thief not ask to be in Abraham's bosom? The thief was not asking to live. He was asking to be remembered, and not left in sheol. God went way above the thief's expectations. The thief would be, himself, in Paradise that day. Not just remembered, but he would experience the resurrection and life that day.

That was the reason for the Cross. The point in time where the Resurrection and Life was made a physical act in the physical. It was already a done deal, before Creation.

 

[amigo de christo]

SING TO THE GLORIOUS LORD . YES INDEED . LET all praise and thank the LORD .

 

[michaelvpardo]

It was not just Jesus the man on the Cross. It was Jesus the Lord God on the Cross. God was with the thief that day in Paradise. Besides Moses and Elijah, the thief was the first one in this group:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"

This is Paradise. The Cross opened Paradise. Adam was banned from Paradise. Abraham's bosom was temporary in sheol, until the Cross. Of course Paradise was not mentioned in the account of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom is not Paradise. Abraham's bosom was the valley of the shadow of death. A part of sheol, but with a great gulf between the two areas. The Cross was the removal of the church from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. That is the reason the thief could be with God in Paradise that day. The body of Jesus was in the tomb. God was in Paradise, not sent to the tomb.

Paul called Paradise the third heaven:

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

The third mention is in Revelation 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

The tree of life has always been in the Garden, Paradise named by God on the Cross. The tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom. Paradise was removed before or at the Flood. Abraham's bosom did not have to happen after Abraham. People on earth went somewhere when they physically died. It was not Paradise. Because all had to wait until the Cross, to enter Paradise.

Let us look at what the thief asked, the general thought of that generation:

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Jesus completely changes the subject? What is the answer? Most were looking for "the kingdom" to come to earth. The 4 Gospels also had Jesus talking about a kingdom. The answer was not, "Today you will enter the kingdom." The thief was asking about the wrong kingdom. Why would the thief not ask to be in Abraham's bosom? The thief was not asking to live. He was asking to be remembered, and not left in sheol. God went way above the thief's expectations. The thief would be, himself, in Paradise that day. Not just remembered, but he would experience the resurrection and life that day.

That was the reason for the Cross. The point in time where the Resurrection and Life was made a physical act in the physical. It was already a done deal, before Creation.

I'm only going to address your last statement The purpose of the cross is the propitiation of sin, done once and for all men, not for making the resurrection and life a physical act. You're confusing cause and effect. That's ok, I'm a little dyslexic and have to double check my math and my writing. It just makes me wonder how often you "put the cart before the horse." No worries, friend, that's why were doing a proper guided bible study and attempting to use proper exegesis and confirmation by His Spirit to rediscover sound doctrine and possibly build sound doctrine where error is obvious.

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[Timtofly]

I can always count on Isaiah for a good proof passage, but there are parallel passages among the prophets:
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them. Isaiah 65:20-23

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20:6

The first resurrection is a type. It is physical. It is not a when. This resurrection is on earth. They live on earth. They have offspring as mentioned in Isaiah 65.

The church is resurrected into Paradise. That location is where there is no offspring.

Some will claim Isaiah is just talking about never dying. As pointed out. There are children, and billions after 1000 years. The earth is not left desolate for 1000 years. The 1000 years is not current time. The 1000 years cannot be wished away by mere theology.


I think most of the problem is some have the mindset of a coming kingdom where heaven, Paradise comes to earth. That will never happen in current reality. That is a different reality altogether. There is still 1000 years left in current reality.

In the NHNE, will reality be framed in kingdom terminology? I am just trying to get used to Paradise being a large cube taking up a large chunk of real estate on the earth. Hebrews 11 calls it a city, not a kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm only going to address your last statement The purpose of the cross is the propitiation of sin, done once and for all men, not for making the resurrection and life a physical act. You're confusing cause and effect. That's ok, I'm a little dyslexic and have to double check my math and my writing. It just makes me wonder how often you "put the cart before the horse." No worries, friend, that's why were doing a proper guided bible study and attempting to use proper exegesis and confirmation by His Spirit to rediscover sound doctrine and possibly build sound doctrine where error is obvious.

No it is not putting the cart before the horse. Jesus was the resurrection and the life before the physical point on the Cross. Being the Atonement is the resurrection and life. The name Emanuel was given from birth. Being the propitiation for sin is one way to look at the Atonement. Resurrection and Life is being free from sin and death.

The Cross was a physical act. It was not symbolic thought, but literally happened.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Very good and pertinent message for the times, but I think that I might've gotten a glimpse of a new one world religion based on a combination of science and paranormal phenomenon being promoted by a Dr. Steven Greer in a documentary (viewable on Amazon Prime). The documentary is called "Close Encounters of the Fifth kind: Contact has begun". This modern "prophet" took a strong interest in UFO phenomenon after having died and been resuscitated, having had visions while dead. He came to the conclusion that UFO phenomena were intrusions into our time space from distant galaxies using a technology of mind controlling matter and there is currently a disturbing amount of "scientific research" into the connection between the physical and psychic phenomena. What was more disturbing is that this doctor developed mental protocols that anyone can follow if they have a "pure mind" and began organizing gatherings of interested people to meditate in isolated spots in the mountains and apply these mental protocols to "direct" these interdimensional travelers to their location. They included video recording equipment to document these sessions of tapping into the "universal mind", and recorded the appearance of globes of light moving in the skies, whispery lights moving around the participants, sometimes exiting from their bodies, sometimes appearing as Brilliant humanoid figures, sometimes just objects materializing and dematerializing in range of their cameras. Some of the participants hear voices and one legally deaf man had his hearing restored inexplicably.
Dr. Greer, the founder of the movement claimed to have an astral projection experience where he was taken out of his body and lifted out into space and shown a vision of innumerable galaxies and where a voice asked him "Isn't the universe that the Lord created beautiful?" Apparently all he got out of his vision is that there are peaceful aliens who want us to evolve our consciousness and join them in a universal mind.
It's not a new concept, but very old from the eastern religions, and an incredible way to deceive a world hungry for peace and a new spiritual awakening, and really just "the age of aquarius " dressed up in UFO phenomenon, complete with "miraculous signs."
This deception has the potential to sweep the world with a universalist religion that draws on quotes and opinions from some of the most renowned scientists of our time and appears to resolve the conflict between religion and science, by adopting Hindu and Buddhist spirituality with scientific theory and "empirical " evidence, no faith required.
I find this a confirmation that UFO phenomenon is really spiritual phenomenon misinterpreted through the lens of science, but it's also the most clever deception of our time. Of course, the whole thing could be a hoax, but if it draws the world to a false kind of spirituality then it's still an effective lie.

 

[michaelvpardo]

No it is not putting the cart before the horse. Jesus was the resurrection and the life before the physical point on the Cross. Being the Atonement is the resurrection and life. The name Emanuel was given from birth. Being the propitiation for sin is one way to look at the Atonement. Resurrection and Life is being free from sin and death.

The Cross was a physical act. It was not symbolic thought, but literally happened.

Interesting evaluation of scripture, but inaccurate and consequently untrustworthy. The name Immanuel was given to Jesus 700 years before His birth. If you don't have that straight, you dont have a logical tautology, you don't have mathematical "truth" and the entire argument becomes invalid. We don't approve the truth of scripture by making it fit our understanding, but by making our understanding fit it.
We refer to this as reconciling scripture to itself, really the process of eliminating apparent contradictions between scripture caused by our own failed perception of truth.

 

[amigo de christo]

Very good and pertinent message for the times, but I think that I might've gotten a glimpse of a new one world religion based on a combination of science and paranormal phenomenon being promoted by a Dr. Steven Greer in a documentary (viewable on Amazon Prime). The documentary is called "Close Encounters of the Fifth kind: Contact has begun". This modern "prophet" took a strong interest in UFO phenomenon after having died and been resuscitated, having had visions while dead. He came to the conclusion that UFO phenomena were intrusions into our time space from distant galaxies using a technology of mind controlling matter and there is currently a disturbing amount of "scientific research" into the connection between the physical and psychic phenomena. What was more disturbing is that this doctor developed mental protocols that anyone can follow if they have a "pure mind" and began organizing gatherings of interested people to meditate in isolated spots in the mountains and apply these mental protocols to "direct" these interdimensional travelers to their location. They included video recording equipment to document these sessions of tapping into the "universal mind", and recorded the appearance of globes of light moving in the skies, whispery lights moving around the participants, sometimes exiting from their bodies, sometimes appearing as Brilliant humanoid figures, sometimes just objects materializing and dematerializing in range of their cameras. Some of the participants hear voices and one legally deaf man had his hearing restored inexplicably.
Dr. Greer, the founder of the movement claimed to have an astral projection experience where he was taken out of his body and lifted out into space and shown a vision of innumerable galaxies and where a voice asked him "Isn't the universe that the Lord created beautiful?" Apparently all he got out of his vision is that there are peaceful aliens who want us to evolve our consciousness and join them in a universal mind.
It's not a new concept, but very old from the eastern religions, and an incredible way to deceive a world hungry for peace and a new spiritual awakening, and really just "the age of aquarius " dressed up in UFO phenomenon, complete with "miraculous signs."
This deception has the potential to sweep the world with a universalist religion that draws on quotes and opinions from some of the most renowned scientists of our time and appears to resolve the conflict between religion and science, by adopting Hindu and Buddhist spirituality with scientific theory and "empirical " evidence, no faith required.
I find this a confirmation that UFO phenomenon is really spiritual phenomenon misinterpreted through the lens of science, but it's also the most clever deception of our time. Of course, the whole thing could be a hoax, but if it draws the world to a false kind of spirituality then it's still an effective lie.

This is why the lambs shall cling to our bible and our Lord . Cause these days folks are grasping onto any false hope
for false peace .

 

[michaelvpardo]

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20:6

The first resurrection is a type. It is physical. It is not a when. This resurrection is on earth. They live on earth. They have offspring as mentioned in Isaiah 65.

The church is resurrected into Paradise. That location is where there is no offspring.

Some will claim Isaiah is just talking about never dying. As pointed out. There are children, and billions after 1000 years. The earth is not left desolate for 1000 years. The 1000 years is not current time. The 1000 years cannot be wished away by mere theology.


I think most of the problem is some have the mindset of a coming kingdom where heaven, Paradise comes to earth. That will never happen in current reality. That is a different reality altogether. There is still 1000 years left in current reality.

In the NHNE, will reality be framed in kingdom terminology? I am just trying to get used to Paradise being a large cube taking up a large chunk of real estate on the earth. Hebrews 11 calls it a city, not a kingdom.

And if you consider everything scripture has to say, then you get a picture of His kingdom on Earth, the tree of life in the center of the city, the river of life flowing from the throne out of the city, where those that defile the temple can still drink without entering the temple. A kingdom outside the city where a gentile remnant lives and works under the covenants of God, and the outer darkness, the dwelling place for those outside the covenants (outside the camp of Israel,) where " there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."
There may be spiritual interpretations for all these passages, but a spiritual interpretation doesn't exclude the physical manifestation of the same. In the law we see the shadow of spiritual realities revealed in Christ. The physical shadows proceeded the spiritual reality in time, the law having been written long before His appearing in the person of His Son. Now, in Christ we receive the spiritual reality before the physical appearing. E,g. We're saved but awaiting the full redemption of our bodies. The kingdom of God is here within us, but we have yet to see it with our own eyes in the millennial reign of Christ. We've received the Spirit of adoption as sons of the living God, but are not yet transformed into His image.

 

[Curtis]

Exactly, my dear brother, but the everlasting gospel is not the gospel of salvation, but the gospel of life. His commandment is life and He sets the prisoners free.
We'll go to the last chapter of the Revelation next, but I have errands to run. God bless you friend and God bless the study to the glory of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ. Amen

I realized recently that since scripture says that there was no law from Adam to Moses, and where there’s no law, is no imputing of sin, those people who sinned apart from the law, and thus not held accountable for their sins, could also be included in the group of spirits in prison that Jesus preached to.

 

[Curtis]

And if you consider everything scripture has to say, then you get a picture of His kingdom on Earth, the tree of life in the center of the city, the river of life flowing from the throne out of the city, where those that defile the temple can still drink without entering the temple. A kingdom outside the city where a gentile remnant lives and works under the covenants of God, and the outer darkness, the dwelling place for those outside the covenants (outside the camp of Israel,) where " there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."
There may be spiritual interpretations for all these passages, but a spiritual interpretation doesn't exclude the physical manifestation of the same. In the law we see the shadow of spiritual realities revealed in Christ. The physical shadows proceeded the spiritual reality in time, the law having been written long before His appearing in the person of His Son. Now, in Christ we receive the spiritual reality before the physical appearing. E,g. We're saved but awaiting the full redemption of our bodies. The kingdom of God is here within us, but we have yet to see it with our own eyes in the millennial reign of Christ. We've received the Spirit of adoption as sons of the living God, but are not yet transformed into His image.

Those are all excellent and insightful points about the new earth kingdom, and a good synopsis of scripture about those outside the kingdom - gentile nations, as well as the damned in outer darkness - and about salvation being both present and future. Our souls are saved now, our mortal bodies will be saved at the resurrection.

Those gentile nations are described coming into the city to worship God, in Zechariah 14.

Since hell has different levels of punishment, I wonder if outer darkness outside of the city, is the least level of punishment.

I do believe though that there are trees of life, plural, on both sides of the river of life, as well as the center of the city, flowing from that temple, the city New Jerusalem, and puts out fruit monthly to heal the nations.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Baruch HaShem Adonai

 

[michaelvpardo]

I realized recently that since scripture says that there was no law from Adam to Moses, and where there’s no law, is no imputing of sin, those people who sinned apart from the law, and thus not held accountable for their sins, could also be included in the group of spirits in prison that Jesus preached to.

We don't have enough written in scripture to be dogmatic about it, but there might be other verses that apply. I believe that the primary purpose of scripture is to reveal the person of God in His Son, the "revelation " of Jesus Christ. We have a tendency to handle the word of God like a rule book because it contains His law, His commandments, but Jesus teaches us that we can't faithfully keep the rules and all need the righteousness of God, received by faith in Him, the Son of God, and our propitiation for sin.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Those are all excellent and insightful points about the new earth kingdom, and a good synopsis of scripture about those outside the kingdom - gentile nations, as well as the damned in outer darkness - and about salvation being both present and future. Our souls are saved now, our mortal bodies will be saved at the resurrection.

Those gentile nations are described coming into the city to worship God, in Zechariah 14.

Since hell has different levels of punishment, I wonder if outer darkness outside of the city, is the least level of punishment.

I do believe though that there are trees of life, plural, on both sides of the river of life, as well as the center of the city, flowing from that temple, the city New Jerusalem, and puts out fruit monthly to heal the nations.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Baruch HaShem Adonai

It makes perfect sense to me and while the verses could be interpreted in spiritual ways, I see no reason to go beyond what the scripture plainly says (we have warnings not to).
This study is intended to shed light on the everlasting gospel, but by looking for it's expression through time from the beginning as written in scripture to the book of the Revelation, not the gospel of salvation as we understand it, not the rock upon which the Lord chose to build His church, but the message of life to those outside the church as a free gift of His grace and for the millennial kingdom. As far as I can see the only condemnation is in rejecting Christ, rejecting the gospel, but He is the judge of the living and of the dead and certainly determines who inherits His kingdom and who is cast outside it.

 

[Timtofly]

Interesting evaluation of scripture, but inaccurate and consequently untrustworthy. The name Immanuel was given to Jesus 700 years before His birth. If you don't have that straight, you dont have a logical tautology, you don't have mathematical "truth" and the entire argument becomes invalid. We don't approve the truth of scripture by making it fit our understanding, but by making our understanding fit it.
We refer to this as reconciling scripture to itself, really the process of eliminating apparent contradictions between scripture caused by our own failed perception of truth.

My point was that Jesus was God from birth, not at baptism. But God is always with us.