The everlasting gospel, part 2: The fallen

[marks]

The separation between physical and spiritual is also a first century heresy associated with gnosticism.

Guilt by association?

?

 

[Timtofly]

You didn't answer the question. Where do the children come from in the millennial kingdom? Who bears them?

It is a fresh start. Those resurrected from the final harvest. They rule over their families and become the Nations for 1000 years.

You use Noah to describe an ark of safety from the Flood of water. There is a follow through with that thought. There will be thousands of "Noahs" resurrected as firstfruits for this 1000 year period.

 

[Timtofly]

The separation between physical and spiritual is also a first century heresy associated with gnosticism.

Are you talking about the condition Adam was placed in as cursed? When sin entered, that which is Holy left. Yet all were sealed by the Holy Spirit. Not to universal redemption. The difference between total depravity, and God's ability to save all of Adam's flesh and blood.

 

[Timtofly]

Back to our topic, who is this offer to and when does it apply, from Christ's resurrection or from the resurrection of the just?
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

That was the message sent to the 7 churches at the time John sent or took them from Patmos. It could be retroactive to the Cross. Who is the bride? Half the church or all of the church?

 

[michaelvpardo]

That is your interpretation.

Lazarus did not have a glorified body. No one has a glorified complete restored image of God, even in Paradise. That happens at the 5th Seal.

Lazarus was given an incorruptible body that cannot be touched by the second death. Lazarus did not taste death again. That is like claiming at the Second Coming, we will be given new bodies, but then all the church has to be killed, beheaded, again during the tribulation.

If Lazarus died again, then Jesus lied and was not the Resurrection and the Life. The point of bringing Lazarus back was the proof of such Resurrection and Life. It did not help those on earth though. Jesus pointed out:

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Lazarus was not brought back to persuade any one, if you take Jesus at His Word. Yet it is the proof. Even today no one is persuaded Lazarus never tasted death again. Just Jesus pointed out that day:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;"

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."

Why?

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

God put a hook in the mouth of those who witnessed the event, and set in motion the very hour of the Cross that was the Atonement that made the Resurrection and Life possible.

Many doubt what Jesus did that day, just as Jesus claimed when Abraham was talking to the rich man. This event was not for the many. It was for one man, Lazarus, who was the first to hear the voice of Jesus as the Resurrection and Life.

Actually, if you read the gospels carefully, Lazarus wasn't the first that Jesus brought back to life.

 

[michaelvpardo]

That was the message sent to the 7 churches at the time John sent or took them from Patmos. It could be retroactive to the Cross. Who is the bride? Half the church or all of the church?

22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Revelation 22:1-5
Then he brought me back to the door of the temple; and there was water, flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east; the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east; and there was water, running out on the right side. Ezekiel 47:1-2
12 Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine.” Ezekiel 47:12
Is this the same river flowing from the throne of God in both Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47?

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, if you read the gospels carefully, Lazarus wasn't the first that Jesus brought back to life.

Probably not the only one He called by name either.

 

[Timtofly]

22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Revelation 22:1-5
Then he brought me back to the door of the temple; and there was water, flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east; the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east; and there was water, running out on the right side. Ezekiel 47:1-2
12 Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine.” Ezekiel 47:12
Is this the same river flowing from the throne of God in both Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47?

The river Ezekiel sees is in Jerusalem. There is a river in the Millennium. It is not the same as in the NHNE.

 

[Enoch111]

Actually, if you read the gospels carefully, Lazarus wasn't the first that Jesus brought back to life.

As a matter of fact he was the last. The first was the daughter of Jairus. The second was the son of the widow of Nain. Which does not necessarily mean that there were not other unrecorded resurrections.

 

[michaelvpardo]

As a matter of fact he was the last. The first was the daughter of Jairus. The second was the son of the widow of Nain. Which does not necessarily mean that there were not other unrecorded resurrections.

Yes, and a resurrection is also performed by Elisha upon a young boy in 2 Kings chapter 4. I don't believe that any one of these are part of the resurrection of the just and if any had been physically transformed and given bodies fit to survive a thousand years, I'm pretty sure that someone would've noticed it and recorded it.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The river Ezekiel sees is in Jerusalem. There is a river in the Millennium. It is not the same as in the NHNE.

Ok, then what did the Lord mean in chapter 43 of the book of Ezekiel when starting to show him the vision of that temple?
And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. Ezekiel 43:7

 

[michaelvpardo]

Since we haven't established the disposition of those souls that never had opportunity to hear the gospel nor were part of the congregation of Israel and privileged to have access to the books of the law and the prophets, let's look specifically at those scriptures that identify those who are obviously condemned by God, in advance, within the prophetic word.
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21: 6-8
How are we to understand verse 8? Is this a "list" or is it a description of the unbelieving and unregenerate?
What else do we see in scripture about the "2nd death?"
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10
This passage prejudges the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. They clearly are condemned as far as I can see.
Who else is prejudged by scripture?
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15
I've heard teachers say that all these raised up at the 2nd resurrection are judged to condemnation and then entirely cast into the lake of fire. But what does the passage actually say? I see a judgment according to works and a final disposition determined by the content of the Book of life.
Revelation chapter 14 also gives us a judgment against those who receive the mark of the beast.
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11
Verse 11 sounds very much like a final condemnation to me, but I don't actually see the "lake of fire" or second death mentioned here. Verse 10 clearly tells us that they suffer the wrath of God, but is this eternal punishment the same as that of the beast, false prophet, and the devil?

 

[Davy]

No, what Jesus said has been ongoing in Paradise since the Cross. No one is having babies in Paradise for the last 1991 years. That is what that verse is saying. Not that those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 cannot have offspring. Jesus was not addressing the Second Coming. Jesus was addressing the terms of Paradise.

Nope. Jesus said in the 'resurrection' they don't marry, but are as the angels of God in Heaven. That means they are IN an angelic type body, which cannot have children. This is why the angels are called "sons of God" in the Book of Job and Genesis 6, it's because all the angels all have the image of men.

So they don't have babies in Paradise right now, nor do they have babies in the resurrection in the world to come. Your idea is like something a pagan would come up with.

 

[Davy]

No, those in Christ are not waiting for the GWT. That is denying these verses:

24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
25 Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time — in fact, it’s already here — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life.

It started with Lazarus. Hearing His voice and being resurrected was already a fact. Why deny these words of Jesus?

What kind of whacked wierdness are you on about now, that those in Christ are waiting for the GWT??? I never said any such thing. Check your eyes!!!

And no... the resurrection of the dead is NOT YET. Don't you remember Apostle Paul rebuking Hymenaeus and Philetus for saying the resurrection is already past?

 

[Davy]

I did not say you said that.

I said that Paradise is where Jesus claims, no one has babies. Jesus did not say they were angels with "spirtual" bodies. He said their physical incorruptible bodies were like the angels and no physical offspring.

Yes there are physical bodies in Paradise. A spiritual body is one resurrected from spiritual death, ie the Lake of Fire.

People really need to read John 3 until they know the difference between a physical and spiritual existence. The first type only pertains to the physical. The second type pertains only to the spiritual. Heaven is a physical creation equal to a spiritual creation. Forget this theology that claims earth is only physical and heaven is only spiritual. That is not what Jesus is saying. Adam was created both a physical and spiritual being. He died and lost both physical and spiritual existence. We need an incorruptible physical body from heaven just as much as we need our spirit, a robe of white, still waiting in heaven for us. The soul is still physically and spiritually dead, separated from both realities.

You should be careful, because here is what you said in your post #68:

"Not that those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 cannot have offspring."

That's your declaration that those of the resurrection can have flesh offspring, which of course is a falsehood. There is no Scripture that supports such an idea.

That false idea comes from the orthodox Jews and their deceived brethren who think the resurrection is to another flesh body.

 

[Davy]

You claimed the above, then ask where?



You said it all happens on the same day. No it does not. It started with Lazarus. The first to hear Jesus call him out of a tomb.

I said what? I NEVER said anything about the event of Luke 16 happening on the same day as the resurrection. Your mind is ADDING to my words, I think you need to check it.

 

[Enoch111]

That false idea comes from the orthodox Jews and their deceived brethren who think the resurrection is to another flesh body.

It is no longer a "flesh" body after the resurrection. It is a transformed, perfected, immortal, and glorified body. Read 1 Corinthians 15. Paul even calls it a "spiritual body", but that does not mean the absence of flesh and bones. The body of Christ at present is also flesh and bones as He clearly stated.

 

[Davy]

It is no longer a "flesh" body after the resurrection. It is a transformed, perfected, immortal, and glorified body. Read 1 Corinthians 15. Paul even calls it a "spiritual body", but that does not mean the absence of flesh and bones. The body of Christ at present is also flesh and bones as He clearly stated.

Why you telling me that? My statement is that the resurrection is NOT to another flesh body.

What's wrong with folks on this Forum, they act like they can't read?

 

[Enoch111]

Why you telling me that? My statement is that the resurrection is NOT to another flesh body.

And that is exactly what I have pointed out. You do not call it a "flesh" body, since it is not an ordinary body.

 

[Davy]

And that is exactly what I have pointed out. You do not call it a "flesh" body, since it is not an ordinary body.

That's exactly what my statement says!

I said:
"That false idea comes from the orthodox Jews and their deceived brethren who think the resurrection is to another flesh body."

That was my response AGAINST his idea that the resurrection was to a flesh body.

I well know Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 that the resurrection body type is to a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly".