Postrib vs Dispy.

[Randy Kluth]

I'm Postrib and also believe in the future salvation of national Israel. I think it's important to state this because many Postribs reject Israel in prophecy altogether, or reinterpret it to apply to the international Church.

Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.

But these things are obviously tied together. God said that without spirituality and without obedience, a nation will not be saved. It will ultimately perish or suffer significant judgment.

Many get confused about this because they think that saving a society is not important in relation to saving an individual. Actually, both are important to God--both nations and individuals. The nation protects the individual, and thus provides a healthy spiritual climate for the individual if the nation is itself generally spiritual, or tolerant of spirituality.

The problem with Postribs who deny the place of national Israel in prophecy is that God did indeed promise this to Abraham. And God doesn't break His promises. Though the Early Church gave up hope in Israel's future salvation because Israel didn't repent, this does not mean that after many generations God cannot begin again with Israel, and ultimately refine her through the fires of His judgment.

So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

So where in the Bible do we see the salvation of Christian nations? We don't, because when the Bible was written Christian nations did not yet exist. And yet God promised them to Abraham. He was promised he would become father of a multitude of nations.

The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

Not a sea of "pagan" nations but a sea of "saved" nations (see Revelation 21). And if you take the prophecy of Ezekiel as divinely inspired (which it is) then there is no escaping the fact that there will be a literal temple in Jerusalem, and there will be a literal Levitical priesthood and sacrifices. Even though this will be under Christ and the nation will consist of regenerated Jews (Ezekiel 36) from all 12 tribes (Ezekiel 48). What we are not told is the reason why this is necessary even though the New Covenant will be in force. So there is no need to second guess God. He has His reasons, which will be revealed in due time.

As to the Rapture, there is no question that it will be before the Tribulation (which coincides with the reign of the Antichrist). The Bible makes it clear that the Man of Sin cannot take control until the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way". And since the Church is indwelt by the Spirit, the Church is also taken out of the way. That is the only way that Satan and the Antichrist can have total control of the inhabitants of the world for 3 1/2 years.

The whole world will be under "strong delusion" at that time, and Christians are not under delusion, nor must they be placed under delusion. It is for those who refused or rejected the Gospel, and did not love the truth.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Hey!! Stay behind if you want but not me.
Thessalonians 4:13-18

Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not a sea of "pagan" nations but a sea of "saved" nations (see Revelation 21).

Yes, there will be a "sea" of Christian nations in the Millennium. No, the former Christian nations are in the midst of a great antiChristian apostasy. They are turning against conservative Christianity and against Zionist Israel.

And if you take the prophecy of Ezekiel as divinely inspired (which it is) then there is no escaping the fact that there will be a literal temple in Jerusalem, and there will be a literal Levitical priesthood and sacrifices. Even though this will be under Christ and the nation will consist of regenerated Jews (Ezekiel 36) from all 12 tribes (Ezekiel 48). What we are not told is the reason why this is necessary even though the New Covenant will be in force. So there is no need to second guess God. He has His reasons, which will be revealed in due time.

Not only does the book of Hebrews and Pauline Theology spell out complete rejection of any continuing OT rituals and practices, but it is against historic Christian Theology. On the other hand, there are a few debatable prophecies that appear to indicate that there will be a NT temple and a rekindling of OT worship forms.

These 2 ideas are, unfortunately, incompatible, so you have to take your pick. I choose for traditional NT Theology, and against any revival of the OT temple system. I do believe the language is used because at one time it had been the dominant frame of reference for those looking at the prophecies.

As to the Rapture, there is no question that it will be before the Tribulation (which coincides with the reign of the Antichrist).

On the contrary, there is a *huge* question mark about the Pretrib Rapture. As popular as it is in some parts, I believe most of Church history can be characterized as generally Postrib. And 2 Thes 2 appears to be explicitly Postrib in theology. The *only* thing giving strength to Dispy is the focus on Israel's future national Christianization.

The Bible makes it clear that the Man of Sin cannot take control until the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".

This is not "clear" at all! The Holy Spirit is not even stated to be the "Restrainer!" In fact, the Early Church viewed the restraint as being accomplished by the unity of the Roman Empire before it breaks up into 10 nations and is then reunited under the Antichrist. This became more clear as Paul stated that Rome established law and order and peace for the empire, as opposed to the future operations of the Antichrist against the Church. And as Rome converted to Christianity, it became plain that it was in fact an obstacle to an imminent rise of the Antichrist, even though smaller antichrists continued to exist.

And since the Church is indwelt by the Spirit, the Church is also taken out of the way. That is the only way that Satan and the Antichrist can have total control of the inhabitants of the world for 3 1/2 years.

The Beast will enjoy the absence of any contender for its dominance on earth. But that doesn't mean there will be 100% conformity. Obviously, if the Beast sees no adversaries that stand up, the implication is that they would wish to. And if the Beast is persecuting resisters, the implication is that there are nonconformists. The Antichrist will persecute Christians. The Church does not have to be vacated in order for a powerful dictator to control Europe and to enjoy world dominance.

The whole world will be under "strong delusion" at that time, and Christians are not under delusion, nor must they be placed under delusion. It is for those who refused or rejected the Gospel, and did not love the truth.

The world is under a delusion now, and yet Christians are here. Your arguments lack merit, and fall far short of making your argument.

 

[Keraz]

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and is not prophesied to happen.
Zechariah 12 does say some Jewish families will finally acknowledge Jesus. But Zechariah 13, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, + all say; that only a remnant of the House of Judah will survive.

The Antichrist will persecute Christians. The Church does not have to be vacated in order for a powerful dictator to control Europe and to enjoy world dominance.

Revelation 12 is the clear scripture on this issue.
We see how Satan will come personally to the earth. He will take over the dead body of the Leader of the One World Govt. Rev 13:1-8
He will persecute the Christians, but those who have keep their faith in God, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The rest must remain in Jerusalem. Rev 12:17

A pre=trib 'rapture to heaven', is a fable and many have fallen for it, to their discredit.

 

[marks]

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

Israel is the only nation God made this covenant with.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And if you take the prophecy of Ezekiel as divinely inspired

Not just Ezekiel, it's all over the place.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not only does the book of Hebrews and Pauline Theology spell out complete rejection of any continuing OT rituals and practices, but it is against historic Christian Theology. On the other hand, there are a few debatable prophecies that appear to indicate that there will be a NT temple and a rekindling of OT worship forms.

Zechariah 14:16-20 KJV
16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20) In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

I think this will be fulfilled as written.

And looking at the church today, the Gospel to be saved today, it's a little different, don't you think?

Much love!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Romans 11:26 26and in this way """all Israel will be saved""". As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

 

[GISMYS_7]

How to be saved=born again and join the family of God! Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 God says= That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto Salvation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and is not prophesied to happen.
Zechariah 12 does say some Jewish families will finally acknowledge Jesus. But Zechariah 13, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, + all say; that only a remnant of the House of Judah will survive.

Revelation 12 is the clear scripture on this issue.
We see how Satan will come personally to the earth. He will take over the dead body of the Leader of the One World Govt. Rev 13:1-8
He will persecute the Christians, but those who have keep their faith in God, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The rest must remain in Jerusalem. Rev 12:17

A pre=trib 'rapture to heaven', is a fable and many have fallen for it, to their discredit.

Yes, we agree that Pretrib is a fable. However, I do believe that the saved remnant of Israel will be glorified with the rest of the Church. And when Christ comes, together with his glorified Church, what remains of mortal Israel will be rebuilt into a nation dedicated to God, just as in ancient times.

 

[Curtis]

I'm Postrib and also believe in the future salvation of national Israel. I think it's important to state this because many Postribs reject Israel in prophecy altogether, or reinterpret it to apply to the international Church.

Let me say, first of all, that there is a difference between the biblical view of national salvation and the biblical view of individual salvation. National salvation has more to do with the survival of the entire society rather than with spiritual salvation.

But these things are obviously tied together. God said that without spirituality and without obedience, a nation will not be saved. It will ultimately perish or suffer significant judgment.

Many get confused about this because they think that saving a society is not important in relation to saving an individual. Actually, both are important to God--both nations and individuals. The nation protects the individual, and thus provides a healthy spiritual climate for the individual if the nation is itself generally spiritual, or tolerant of spirituality.

The problem with Postribs who deny the place of national Israel in prophecy is that God did indeed promise this to Abraham. And God doesn't break His promises. Though the Early Church gave up hope in Israel's future salvation because Israel didn't repent, this does not mean that after many generations God cannot begin again with Israel, and ultimately refine her through the fires of His judgment.

So I do believe in Israel's future salvation, and also in the salvation of other nations--primarily Christian nations. Like Israel, many Christian nations have fallen on hard times, and have come under divine punishment. If Israel can be saved, so can these former Christian nations.

So where in the Bible do we see the salvation of Christian nations? We don't, because when the Bible was written Christian nations did not yet exist. And yet God promised them to Abraham. He was promised he would become father of a multitude of nations.

The problem I see with Pretribs and their Dispensationalism is that not only are they wrong about Pretrib itself, but also wrong to emphasize Israel's salvation through the lens of OT realities. They see Israel as returning to the Law, and they see Israel as still an exclusive nation in a sea of pagan nations.

That reality has changed, although some of it remains true. Whereas the nations ultimately capitulate to paganism it is not true that other nations did not become nations of God. Many nations have become Christian nations. They just ultimately fall, as Israel did. All nations do, ultimately, turn against Israel.

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

God elects corporately: the nation of Israel; the body of Christ.

Romans 9 is a good example. Reformed doctrine interprets the potter and clay, Jacob and Esau as being about individual salvation and damnation - but that’s not so.

Jeremiah 18 is the potter and clay chapter, which is actually the scripture that Paul is quoting in Romans 9.


The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


And Israel, the nation from Jacob, is the clay on the potters wheel, not an individual person.


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


No nation is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil)

And He elects corporately as a rule, and individually as needed, when He needs a prophet or whatever is needed for special assignments.

 

[n2thelight]

So the idea is to recognize that Israel is no longer alone in prophecy, and the future will involve not just Israel's recovery, but also the recovery of many other nations, formerly of faith. And most certainly, there will be no return to the Law. If all nations oppose Israel, they also oppose the idea of "Christian nations." They will stand not in opposition to the practice of the Law of Moses, but rather, in opposition to Christ and to those promised to Christ.

The Christian nations are Israel ,only Judah returned to form that nation state of Israel .

 

[farouk]

Ephesians 1 and John 6 have some very relevant verses for Christians which show the sovereignty of God in salvation.

 

[Curtis]

Not a sea of "pagan" nations but a sea of "saved" nations (see Revelation 21). And if you take the prophecy of Ezekiel as divinely inspired (which it is) then there is no escaping the fact that there will be a literal temple in Jerusalem, and there will be a literal Levitical priesthood and sacrifices. Even though this will be under Christ and the nation will consist of regenerated Jews (Ezekiel 36) from all 12 tribes (Ezekiel 48). What we are not told is the reason why this is necessary even though the New Covenant will be in force. So there is no need to second guess God. He has His reasons, which will be revealed in due time.

As to the Rapture, there is no question that it will be before the Tribulation (which coincides with the reign of the Antichrist). The Bible makes it clear that the Man of Sin cannot take control until the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way". And since the Church is indwelt by the Spirit, the Church is also taken out of the way. That is the only way that Satan and the Antichrist can have total control of the inhabitants of the world for 3 1/2 years.

The whole world will be under "strong delusion" at that time, and Christians are not under delusion, nor must they be placed under delusion. It is for those who refused or rejected the Gospel, and did not love the truth.

The Holy Spirit indwelling the church is absolutely not restraining the Antichrist until taken out of the way at the rapture.

1. The Holy Spirit, who is God, has this characteristic you may have heard of - HE IS OMNIPRESENT - everywhere present at all times, and cannot be removed from anywhere.

2. After the rapture there is a huge tribulation church on earth during the tribulation, per Revelation where John sees a huge crowd of martyrs in heaven, killed for not taking the mark - and they’ll have the HS indwelling them also.

Who the restrainer is, is never mentioned, but given that an angel has power to grab Satan and drag him to the bottomless pit and restrain him in chains for a thousand years, it’s very likely to be that same angel.

 

[Enoch111]

1. The Holy Spirit, who is God, has this characteristic you may have heard of - HE IS OMNIPRESENT - everywhere present at all times, and cannot be removed from anywhere.

Yes God is omnipresent. But you seem to have forgotten that until the day of Pentecost in 30 AD, the Holy Spirit had not been given as a gift to those who believe. He had not be sent down to earth by the Father. And just as He came down to earth for the Church Age He will return to Heaven when the Church is raptured and to allow Satan full control. As to an angel being the Restrainer mentioned in 2 Thessalonians, that is just laughable. Even Michael the archangel said to Satan "the Lord rebuke thee".

 

[farouk]

Yes God is omnipresent. But you seem to have forgotten that until the day of Pentecost in 30 AD, the Holy Spirit had not been given as a gift to those who believe. He had not be sent down to earth by the Father. And just as He came down to earth for the Church Age He will return to Heaven when the Church is raptured and to allow Satan full control. As to an angel being the Restrainer mentioned in 2 Thessalonians, that is just laughable. Even Michael the archangel said to Satan "the Lord rebuke thee".

Hi Enoch111: My understanding is that the Holy Spirit indwells from Pentecost until the Rapture.

 

[Enoch111]

Hi Enoch111: My understanding is that the Holy Spirit indwells from Pentecost until the Rapture.

That is exactly what I have said. The Holy Spirit is present on earth in a very special way since Pentecost. On one hand He convicts and convinces sinners. On the other hand He indwells believers and is their divine Teacher and Comforter. At the same time He is the divine Restrainer of evil on this earth. But since God will send strong delusion at the time that the Antichrist takes control, we are told that the one who presently restrains will no longer restrain because He will be "taken out of the way". So when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, it follows that the Church is also taken out of the way at the Rapture. Christians are salt and light on earth, but their absence will allow total evil and corruption to take control for 3 1/2 years (Revelation 13).

 

[Randy Kluth]

God elects corporately: the nation of Israel; the body of Christ.

Romans 9 is a good example. Reformed doctrine interprets the potter and clay, Jacob and Esau as being about individual salvation and damnation - but that’s not so.

Jeremiah 18 is the potter and clay chapter, which is actually the scripture that Paul is quoting in Romans 9.


The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


And Israel, the nation from Jacob, is the clay on the potters wheel, not an individual person.


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


No nation is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil)

And He elects corporately as a rule, and individually as needed, when He needs a prophet or whatever is needed for special assignments.

Interesting. For what it's worth I'm predestinarian, but also believe, oddly, in free choice. How these fit together is the rub.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Christian nations are Israel ,only Judah returned to form that nation state of Israel .

Yea, that's a common view, which I don't hold to. Judah was only the predominant tribe in which proper worship under the Law was taking place. So all tribes, over time, joined with Judah in proper worship under the Law. Israel came to be identified as "Jews," only because it was a reconstitution in the southern kingdom of Judah, and not because it consisted only of those from the tribe of Judah.

I reject the idea of Christian nations being "Israel." That's a contradiction to me. Israel is only one of many nations. Therefore, all nations cannot be "Israel."