Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God.

Salvation is grace. Salvation is by grace.

Salvation is God’s work. God is the Savior and is the One who works this out in and on the person whom He saves. As to how God works out and accomplishes His salvation, is told us in scriptures. It is clear to me, God does it through faith. Not through faith that comes from man, but through faith that comes from Him.

And faith comes from hearing the word of God - Romans 10:17 - not from first being regenerated as one of the few elect, (and thus saved and given grace) before belief - but simply from hearing the word of God.

Then we have to make our calling and ELECTION sure, by choosing to ADD to our faith the fruit that includes virtue and Godliness (living righteously) so that IF WE DO THOSE THINGS we won’t FALL and will be given entrance into heaven, per the apostle Peter - which absolutely falsifies the fatalist philosophy of determinism aka Calvinist reformed dogma.

There is no irresistible predetermined salvation of the lucky few elect, and predetermined reprobation of the rest of humanity.

Thank God.

Firstly, I have to state that my posts are with reference and reading of the Holy scriptures of God, and not from any other writings.

Secondly, I find your posts as not in anyway refuting my post in the quote box.

Now here’s my comment to your post here. Though I will only comment on those that are with reference to scriptures, and will not on those that are with reference to what others teach.

<<<And faith comes from hearing the word of God - Romans 10:17 - not from first being regenerated as one of the few elect, (and thus saved and given grace) before belief - but simply from hearing the word of God.>>>

Yes faith comes from hearing. So let us look at “hearing”. What does the scriptures say regarding the matter of hearing the word of God or of the things of the Spirit of God, with regards the natural man?

1 Cor.2:14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Such truth have us understand that while perhaps the gospel and the things of the Spirit of God come to the hearing of the natural man, he can not know them or discern them. As such, while he hears, he cannot understand what he hears. The question then is “How then can he have faith?” What is your answer to that?


@Nancy
@Stumpmaster

Tong
R3901

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
John 6:37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jesus speaks and refers to a people who consist of “All that the Father gives Me”. And that these people are they who will come to Him (Jesus Christ).

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

In other words, concerning coming to Jesus, this is the truth of that matter, that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. That is what He said to the great multitude who followed Him in Capernaum.

Jesus lost one of those given Him by the father, JUDAS.

Concerning the twelve disciples, there is something peculiar concerning them compared to the great multitude who followed Jesus in Capernaum. They were specifically chosen by Jesus Christ.

Now concerning Judas, it is not that Jesus lost him, for that would go against the words of Jesus. For Jesus knew even in the beginning, that is, before He actually chose him, that he is the one who would betray Him (John 6:64).

Jesus also said, If I be lifted uo (on the cross) I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.

I think you are referring to John 12:32. If the drawing there involves each and every man, that would make each and every man as can come to Jesus, considering what Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” and would run against the words of Jesus in John 6:65, “…. no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”.

Israel was Gods own ELECT, and Jesus came originally ONLY for them, who were His OWN chosen people, thus the Holy Spirit was working in them to give them faith and draw them to Him, but per Stephen, who told them that the reason they not only killed the prophets God sent them, but also rejected their own Messiah and savior Jesus - and killed Him TOO, is because they always RESISTED THE HOLY SPIRIT.

While it could be said that the Holy Spirit is at work in the OT times in relation to Israel, and that they resisted the Holy Spirit, there is much difference between the OT times and after the coming of the Messiah, the NT times, with regards the Holy Spirit. One big difference is in how the Holy Spirit works during the OT times and during the NT times.

Tong
R3902

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My point too was clear to obfuscate.

Salvation is grace and is by grace. And salvation is God’s work.

You correctly pointed out “Through: by way of - via - by means of.”

So, when Paul said that we have been saved by grace through faith, we understand that faith is the “means”. Whose “means”? God’s “means”. Now, would the “means”, that is faith, precede the grace of God? I don’t even see that to make much of a sense.

All you did was repeat exactly what I said, only jumbled up.

I did not repeat what you said nor jumbled it. Rather I made reference to it and had shown it to really not make much of a sense.

Faith can’t be a response to grace, because faith has to come first, since faith is how we access grace.

Therefore faith precedes salvation (grace), Instead of salvation (grace) preceding faith.[/QUOTE]

First, faith isn’t a response. If your take of faith is as being a response, then that would make faith to be coming from you. If that is the case with you concerning faith, I would understand then that what faith you have is faith that comes from you and not faith that comes from God. And that would have me understand why you say and claim that faith precedes grace.

Grace is the response to faith, and not the cause of it.

Like faith, grace isn’t a response.

Tong
R3903

 

[Curtis]

]John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

In the above passage, Jesus says those who believe in Him are saved, but those who reject Him are damned, and said they are damned because the light came into the world, and that those who reject Him do so because they love darkness and deeds that are evil.

There’s nothing in this passage that precludes their love of darkness from being their own freewill choice. Calvinism infers their election dogma into the text, which is called eisegesis.


John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
And slaves want to be set free, and will take freedom when it is offered to them. This in no way proves inability to accept freedom (the gospel) when offered to them

Romans 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Jeremiah 29:13 says that when you seek me, you will find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Romans 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Slaves have the free will to desire to escape slavery, and will take freedom when offered to them thus this passage doesn’t prove inability to receive the gospel

Romans 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

In Romans 8, Paul is warning Christians about letting their flesh rule them, instead of walking in the spirit - if they follow their flesh they will die, spiritually.

This in no way means that the unsaved can’t be drawn by Jesus, John 12:32, or respond to the faith given them by hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17

1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

That’s why the Holy Spirit gives us faith when we hear the gospel, Romans 10:17 and why Jesus draws all men unto Him, John 12:32 - we can’t give ourselves faith or draw ourselves unto Christ, but it’s done for ALL MEN by Jesus and by the Holy Spirit for all who hear the gospel preached.


Ephesians 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

This is the fundamental error of Calvinism - spiritual death means being spiritually separated from God - but they equate spiritual separation from Gods presence, with physical death of the body, so. claim that like a dead body that can’t THINK, they have total inability to understand or believe the gospel.

Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

This says nothing about total inability to respond to the gospel and be saved from Gods wrath and spiritually reborn to new life that eschews the desires of the flesh.




God must enable man to come to Him. It is the work of God !

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

It’s the will of God that those who believe in Him and receive Jesus will be saved, and born again.

The plan of salvation is Gods idea and will, not mans idea.

This in no way proves God predetermined salvation of some by name, and reprobation of the rest of the world

John 1:11 tells us that “Jesus came FOR HIS OWN, the elect nation of Israel, BUT THEY RECEIVED HIM NOT”.

Faith comes from hearing Gods word, Romans 10:17, then we have freewill to receive Jesus, John 1:12, or reject Jesus as His own elect did John 1:11, which Stephen said they did, because they RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT:

Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,

That Gods own elect can resist the Holy Spirit, even reject Jesus to the point of killing Him, is fatal to Calvinist dogma.

John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"

And faith comes by hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - not from being regenerated first as one of the lucky few elect.



Ephesians 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Very true. God predetermined that those who choose to receive Jesus will become the adopted children of God, John 1:12. No one told God to do have the plan of salvation for us, it came solely from His will.

men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."[/QUOTE]t

I answered many of the reformed doctrine misinterpretation of scriptures, above, and I’m going to send it, because I almost lost the page with my answers twice.

Since scripture is ridiculously clear that elect Israel disproved reformed election dogma, by refusing irresistible grace and unconditional election, by resisting the Holy Spirit, rejecting their Messiah and savior to the point of killing Him - then either there is a very serious contradiction in the Bible, or Calvinist proof texts are wrong.

They are wrong.

 

[Curtis]

Part two reply

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Dr. Brian Abasciano, a notable Greek and New Testament scholar, writes,

“The best understanding of ‘tasso’ [appointed] in Acts 13:48 is that it refers to Gentiles who were ‘in position for eternal life’ — ‘ready for eternal life’ — or even ‘intent on obtaining eternal life’ (particularly in contrast to the Jews of the same episode who opposed Paul and rejected the gospel, and so who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life [Acts 13:46]), and that the most accurate translation of the phrase in question would be something like: ‘as many as were disposed to eternal life believed’ or ‘as many as were aligned for eternal life believed’ or ‘as many as were positioned for eternal life believed.‘”

Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Predestined to salvation? No.

What God predestined is that those born again, who are regenerated spiritually, will become conformed to the image of His son by being regenerated.

That does not mean he selects by name those who will be born again.

Who did He predestinate? Those He foreknew would respond to the faith He gives them when they hear God’s word, Romans 10:17, and not resist the Holy Spirit, Acts 7:51, as when elect Israel refused to receive their own savior and messiah, when He came for them, John 1:11.

This proof text is very problematic for Calvinists because it upsets their ORDO SALUTIS aka order of salvation, regarding foreknowledge vs predestination.

Paul does not follow reformed dogmas Calvinist order, because he puts foreknowledge before predestination, which upsets their reformed doctrine Apple cart all over the street.

Predestination just means to choose ahead of time.

Predestinating those who God knows will believe is like a man - if he could know the future - selecting ahead of time a woman to be his wife that he knows will love him.

He obviously wouldn’t choose someone he knows will hate him.

Ephesians 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."

God corporately chose that the body of Christ - not each individual who becomes part of the body of Christ - will be holy and blameless in love.

Calvinists frequently take corporate election, and read individual election into it.

An example of this is if a businessman named Theo, starts a construction company with the purpose of building high quality yet inexpensive houses, and one of his employees writes to a distant relative about his job, and says:Theo chose us from before the founding of the company, that we would be builders of inexpensive yet high quality homes.

A Calvinist would interpret that to mean that Theo predestined by name, before the company was established, the exact individuals who would be in his company building houses, then irresistible drew them to his company, and forced them accept his hiring them, thus turning corporate hiring of qualified carpenters who responded to the newspaper ads, into compulsion of them to join his co

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man

Other than the man accepting it.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Faith comes by hearing the word of God - there’s no such scripture saying that first the ears must be opened up by a different type of grace.

The irony of your post and this whole thread lies in you accusing people of getting things backward while getting things backward yourself.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” - Jhn 6:44, 65

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." - Jhn 15:16

“For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”- Acts 2:39

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" - 1 Cor. 1:2

"And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us. Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them." - Acts 16:10

"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." - Acts 16:14

I suggest you consider what the Bible says instead of confidently teaching personal beliefs as bible truth and making presumptuous statements. There are plenty of other passages and incidents beside the ones i posted that shows God calls the people He wants to be Christians in this age before they actually come into the knowledge of the true gospel. Rev. 17:14 says God's people are called, chosen, and faithful in that specific order for a reason.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man

Other than the man accepting it.

Grace is given by God, not offered by God. And God gives grace according to the counsel of His will.

Grace isn’t something that God offers to man, that man may or may not accept.

Now, salvation or deliverance is something that God does and accomplish, not something that God offers to accomplish.

Tong
R3908

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Grace is given by God, not offered by God. ....

Grace isn’t something that God offers to man, that man may or may not accept.

"We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20

“All day long I have held out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Romans 10:21

 

[Stumpmaster]

Grace isn’t something that God offers to man, that man may or may not accept.

But since salvation is by grace through faith, and since not all are saved by grace, it must be that not all have the required faith, and as you and I know, it is NOT because of any fault or failing on God's part that reprobates lack faith.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Grace is given by God, not offered by God. ....

Grace isn’t something that God offers to man, that man may or may not accept.

"We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:20

“All day long I have held out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Romans 10:21

2 Cor.5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Romans 10: 21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Misused.

Tong
R3910

 

[Ferris Bueller]

2 Cor.5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Romans 10: 21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Misused.

Tong
R3910

I agree. What you're trying to imply is a terrible misuse of scripture.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

- there’s no such scripture saying that first the ears must be opened up by a different type of grace.

Grace is a very broad term. It simply means 'receiving something good you do not deserve' (as opposed to mercy which is 'not getting something bad you do deserve'). God's grace is apparent in all the earth in all kinds of forms to all people, saved and unsaved alike. Jesus said our Father causes the sun to rise, and the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. Paul explained to the people of Lystra how God, despite Him letting the nations go their own way, gives them provision for food and gladness of heart...

"...He let all nations go their own way. Yet He has not left Himself without testimony to His goodness: He gives you rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling your hearts with food and gladness.” Acts 14:16-17​

You are talking, specifically, about God's grace in salvation. Faith surely precedes God's grace in salvation. But it's also true that just hearing the gospel and being empowered to receive it is also an expression of God's grace, just not the grace of salvation itself. You and I did nothing deserving an invitation to enter into the kingdom of God. It's a gracious offer to live with Him in eternity. Most people reject that gracious invitation and are lost. A few of us accept it and then receive the grace of God's salvation.

 

[Taken]

Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.
OP ^

Yes.
Gods Grace precedes Gods gift of Faith.

It is By Gods Grace...He offers His Gift of Faith to men.

It is mans Option by the mans FREEWILL to accept Gods Offering of Gods Gift of Faith...or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Curtis]

Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.
OP ^

Yes.
Gods Grace precedes Gods gift of Faith.

It is By Gods Grace...He offers His Gift of Faith to men.

It is mans Option by the mans FREEWILL to accept Gods Offering of Gods Gift of Faith...or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

Except that’s backwards, as I clearly proved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Except that’s backwards, as I clearly proved.

I don't think he's saying the grace of salvation precedes the grace of being given the faith to know the gospel is true. Just because someone has been given the faith to know what they can't see really is true does not mean they are saved. You have to then RECEIVE what God has shown is true in order for you to be saved. That's called 'having' faith, meaning we have made a decision to retain the word of faith God has provided for you to know the gospel is true. Just as surely as being lost is the result of not retaining the word of faith God has provided for you to know the gospel is true.

 

[Taken]

Except that’s backwards, as I clearly proved.

Disagree;
Gods Order and Way is Bit by Bit of Gods knowledge given mankind.

Order; Shall, Shall not.
Gen 2:16 Freely shalt eat..
Gen 2:17 Shalt not eat..
Gen 2:17 Consequence.

Order: Way, Direction
Gen 3:24 Gods Way revealed
Gen 6:5 Thought of Heart revealed
Gen 6:8 Grace revealed
Gen 15:6 Believe revealed
Gen 23:8 Thought of Mind revealed
Num 12:7 Faith revealed

The Knowledge, Order, Way of God
is revealed;
Grace Precedes Faith.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
2 Cor.5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Romans 10: 21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Misused.

I agree. What you're trying to imply is a terrible misuse of scripture.

Not implying anything such as you think even as being a terrible misuse of scriptures. Rather, I was pointing out a misuse of those scriptures when one fails or errs in their take of the “we” and “you” and “Israel” in the passages you quoted.

Tong
R3912

 

[Tong2020]

Grace is a very broad term. It simply means 'receiving something good you do not deserve' (as opposed to mercy which is 'not getting something bad you do deserve'). God's grace is apparent in all the earth in all kinds of forms to all people, saved and unsaved alike. Jesus said our Father causes the sun to rise, and the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. Paul explained to the people of Lystra how God, despite Him letting the nations go their own way, gives them provision for food and gladness of heart...

"...He let all nations go their own way. Yet He has not left Himself without testimony to His goodness: He gives you rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling your hearts with food and gladness.” Acts 14:16-17​

You are talking, specifically, about God's grace in salvation. Faith surely precedes God's grace in salvation. But it's also true that just hearing the gospel and being empowered to receive it is also an expression of God's grace, just not the grace of salvation itself. You and I did nothing deserving an invitation to enter into the kingdom of God. It's a gracious offer to live with Him in eternity. Most people reject that gracious invitation and are lost. A few of us accept it and then receive the grace of God's salvation.

<<<Grace is a very broad term. It simply means 'receiving something good you do not deserve' (as opposed to mercy which is 'not getting something bad you do deserve').>>>

Mercy is grace.

<<<Faith surely precedes God's grace in salvation.>>>

Faith is grace.

Salvation is grace. And the salvation of God is by grace, and that, through faith. That itself tells us concerning the grace of salvation, that faith does not precede said grace.

Tong
R3913

 

[Tong2020]

Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.
OP ^

Yes.
Gods Grace precedes Gods gift of Faith.

It is By Gods Grace...He offers His Gift of Faith to men.

It is mans Option by the mans FREEWILL to accept Gods Offering of Gods Gift of Faith...or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

Faith is not a gift that is offered for the taking. Faith is grace given by God according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R3914