Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.

[Taken]

Faith is not a gift that is offered for the taking. Faith is grace given by God according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R3914

All gifts are an Offering, anyone can take or refuse to take.

Faith is a gift.
You want it....agree to HEAR Gods Word.
You don't want it....refuse to HEAR Gods Word.

I think you have "GIFTS" confused with "BLESSINGS"...

God "GIVES" Blessings, to all...believers and nonbelievers. It does not require the agreement of a man ... by taking.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not implying anything such as you think even as being a terrible misuse of scriptures. Rather, I was pointing out a misuse of those scriptures when one fails or errs in their take of the “we” and “you” and “Israel” in the passages you quoted.

Your 'take' of those scriptures in no way makes it untrue that the grace of salvation is something that God offers to man that he may or may not accept.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Faith is not a gift that is offered for the taking.

"...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." Romans 10:17

"...this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 John 5:11

"But not all of them welcomed the good news." Romans 10:16

"...whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son." 1 John 5:10

God sends the gospel message to people through the testimony of the Spirit. Inherent in that message is the faith to know it's true. Yet, most will choose to reject the message God has shown them to be true. They will not retain the word of faith God has spoken to their hearts.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Faith is grace given by God according to the counsel of His will.

This much you have correct. God sends the sure and undeniable testimony of the Spirit to a person at the time of his choosing according to his will and providence. The door of faith remains closed for a person until He does that. A person can't choose whether to believe the message or not until God delivers that message to them by the word of faith through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nancy]

Yes, apparently we read and see the passages differently. There will come a time that will change with us seeing the same. And since presently we see differently, with others seeing as you do and others seeing as I do, that we have such kind of discussions, hoping that we all would come to the truth and be one in the truth, to the glory of our God and Savior.

On John 6:37, you said “ My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)“.

With me, I don’t see that in John 6:37. Even in Romans 12:3, Paul was not referring there to each and every man.

You said “All that the Father gives Me..." <---- Does the Father give Him any who He knows will not receive the Gospel? I would say to this scripture that when Christ was raised up, He drew ALL men unto Him as, His work on this earth was finished and, the door was opened to any, all, whomsoever...”

Well, John 6:37 plainly says “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,”. Now, in my reading of scriptures and the reality I see, is that not all, that is, each and every man, come to Jesus.

I think you are referring to John 12:32. If the drawing there involves each and every man, that would make each and every man as can come to Jesus, considering what Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” and would run against the words of Jesus in John 6:65, “…. no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”.

You said “If it is not Gods will that ANY should perish, then it cannot be His will to damn some to Hell at the foundation of the world. That kind of contradicts His character...?”

While we read in scriptures concerning God’s desire that any should perish, it is not conclusive to me, that none will. In fact, the truth is that many will perish. And that truth does not at all tell us that He desired to damn them in Hell, not at the foundation of the world nor any time later.

My view is that men will go to hell because of sin, their sins. And whoever will not go to hell and will instead go to heaven is because of God’s grace, that is, salvation. Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man, nor is it something that could be worked on to attain or have as a wage. It is something that God gives according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R3900

Hello Tong, this will take some time for me to properly respond to but, I need to get off line to do some things for a bit but, I will come back
Gods many blessings brother.

 

[Curtis]

Disagree;
Gods Order and Way is Bit by Bit of Gods knowledge given mankind.

Order; Shall, Shall not.
Gen 2:16 Freely shalt eat..
Gen 2:17 Shalt not eat..
Gen 2:17 Consequence.

Order: Way, Direction
Gen 3:24 Gods Way revealed
Gen 6:5 Thought of Heart revealed
Gen 6:8 Grace revealed
Gen 15:6 Believe revealed
Gen 23:8 Thought of Mind revealed
Num 12:7 Faith revealed

The Knowledge, Order, Way of God
is revealed;
Grace Precedes Faith.

Glory to God,
Taken

Salvation/grace does not precede faith.

Period.

 

[Curtis]

I don't think he's saying the grace of salvation precedes the grace of being given the faith to know the gospel is true. Just because someone has been given the faith to know what they can't see really is true does not mean they are saved. You have to then RECEIVE what God has shown is true in order for you to be saved. That's called 'having' faith, meaning we have made a decision to retain the word of faith God has provided for you to know the gospel is true. Just as surely as being lost is the result of not retaining the word of faith God has provided for you to know the gospel is true.

Yep. We have to choose to receive Jesus, John 1:12

And we must choose to repent Acts 3:19

Shalom

 

[Taken]

Salvation/grace does not precede faith.

Period.

Without Gods GRACE, there would be NO faith, NO salvation, offered or given unto man.

It is BECAUSE of Gods LOVE...
He Offers "His Grace..."
Which IS God Offering the CORRUPT SINFUL MAN, "WAYS" to Become reconcilled unto Him.
The Offerings are HIS Gifts are plenty...
His Word
His Doctrine
His Precepts
Faith
Forgiveness
Salvation
On and On.
Not one of those things are forced on any man. They are Gifts a man can accept or refuse.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Without Gods GRACE, there would be NO faith, NO salvation, offered or given unto man.

It is BECAUSE of Gods LOVE...
He Offers "His Grace..."
Which IS God Offering the CORRUPT SINFUL MAN, "WAYS" to Become reconcilled unto Him.
The Offerings are HIS Gifts are plenty...
His Word
His Doctrine
His Precepts
Faith
Forgiveness
Salvation
On and On.
Not one of those things are forced on any man. They are Gifts a man can accept or refuse.

The issue is not that saving grace is a gift of God but that without faith in Christ no-one has access to God's gift of saving grace.

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—

Gal 3:6-9 Even as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” (7) Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham. (8) The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” (9) So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

 

[Nancy]

Tong
R3900[/QUOTE]

"Yes, apparently we read and see the passages differently. There will come a time that will change with us seeing the same. And since presently we see differently, with others seeing as you do and others seeing as I do, that we have such kind of discussions, hoping that we all would come to the truth and be one in the truth, to the glory of our God and Savior."

Amen, and we can still give glory to Christ in how we treat one another, and how teachable our spirits are. What I "believe" I know is a drop in the ocean compared to many on here and, even they too can change their minds with new revelations through scripture.
It is rare that agreement is totally, 100% found in any two Christians, IMHO. And, yes! Agreed that there WILL come a time when we will see the one and same, Amen!

"On John 6:37, you said “ My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)“...With me, I don’t see that in John 6:37. Even in Romans 12:3, Paul was not referring there to each and every man."

This is where we differ much...in the meaning of "all", "any" "the world", "whosoever's"...
Well then, why even use all those "all's" and "any's" at all?? It is not that complicated in my mind. You see it differently and that's fine bro.

Jesus draws ALL men unto Him as He said if He be lifted up, He was and He did but not EVERY man will answer that knock, as we already know that "few will be saved". He has given His life for ours yet...not all will accept this unbelievable gift He has given us.

"Well, John 6:37 plainly says “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,”. Now, in my reading of scriptures and the reality I see, is that not all, that is, each and every man, come to Jesus."

No, not all will NOT come to Jesus, as I pointed out a few times, few will be saved, and even the righteous; scarcely.
My take is that The Father gives to His son ALL who will be humble enough to see their need for a savior. But we already know that their will be many who will love their sin more than God. I've never even intoned that "ALL" would be saved, that's Universalism. I DID say that NOT all will accept His gift or open to His knock.

2 Peter 3:9
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Again, this is plain, along with other verses that God is NOT willing any should perish so, it is backwards to me when I hear some say that God ordained some for destruction, arbitrarily as, that certainly does not line up at all with 2 Peter 3:9 AND, many others.

"I think you are referring to John 12:32. If the drawing there involves each and every man, that would make each and every man as can come to Jesus, considering what Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” and would run against the words of Jesus in John 6:65, “…. no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”.

I believe that every man DOES have many opportunities to come to Jesus, some have hardened their heart and closed their minds and eyes as, Satan blinds them. A conscience can be worn totally away in some people And, eventually they will hear the Spirit no more as God gave them up to their sin and Satan.

"While we read in scriptures concerning God’s desire that any should perish, it is not conclusive to me, that none will. In fact, the truth is that many will perish. And that truth does not at all tell us that He desired to damn them in Hell, not at the foundation of the world nor any time later."

Neither is it conclusive to me that none will perish, most will! I see people sending themselves to hell because of living their lives in sin, not God. He cannot change and, if one does not have Christ, they are damned, period. If you subscribe to the tulip doctrine then, you DO believe that God chose some to be saved (the "elect"),before ever being born, and that He chose others TO be damned, before being born, to show His Glory in His wrath.

My view is that men will go to hell because of sin, their sins. And whoever will not go to hell and will instead go to heaven is because of God’s grace, that is, salvation. Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man, nor is it something that could be worked on to attain or have as a wage. It is something that God gives according to the counsel of His will.

Agreed. Yet, I believe faith comes to each of us in a certain measure first. God's grace is much more than unmerited favor, it is His power to rise above our circumstances and temptations, victorious! And, without faith nobody can please Him. Ever think there are some out there who DO receive His grace yet, ignore it and stomp all over it?

"Tong
R3900
God is the Sovereign Creator of all! I am forever grateful and blessed that God had Himself known to me, even in the person of Jesus Christ."

Amen brother, and I am forever grateful that I answered His knock
All blessing, honor and glory to Him.

 

[Taken]

The issue is not that saving grace is a gift of God

Correct. That was not the issue.

but that without faith in Christ no-one has access to God's gift of saving grace..

I would say, without faith one is not prepared to receive Gods gift of Salvation.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Faith is not a gift that is offered for the taking. Faith is grace given by God according to the counsel of His will.

All gifts are an Offering, anyone can take or refuse to take.

Faith is a gift.
You want it....agree to HEAR Gods Word.
You don't want it....refuse to HEAR Gods Word.

I think you have "GIFTS" confused with "BLESSINGS"...

God "GIVES" Blessings, to all...believers and nonbelievers. It does not require the agreement of a man ... by taking.

<<<All gifts are an Offering, anyone can take or refuse to take.>>>

The scriptures leads me to disagree with that. Consider for example the gift of healing, was that offered to one who have the gift for the taking or refusal? Consider as well the other gifts in 1 Cor. 12, were they offered for the taking or refusal?

Tong
R3915

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not implying anything such as you think even as being a terrible misuse of scriptures. Rather, I was pointing out a misuse of those scriptures when one fails or errs in their take of the “we” and “you” and “Israel” in the passages you quoted.

Your 'take' of those scriptures in no way makes it untrue that the grace of salvation is something that God offers to man that he may or may not accept.

Well it is you who referred to those scriptures, seemingly out to imply that said scriptures shows that God’s grace of salvation is offered for acceptance or refusal. To which I have only pointed out that such is a misuse of said scriptures, and to point out nothing more.

Tong
R3916

 

[Stumpmaster]

<<<All gifts are an Offering, anyone can take or refuse to take.>>>

The scriptures leads me to disagree with that. Consider for example the gift of healing, was that offered to one who have the gift for the taking or refusal? Consider as well the other gifts in 1 Cor. 12, were they offered for the taking or refusal?

Tong
R3915

Scripture teaches that God's gifts can be refused.

Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Faith is not a gift that is offered for the taking.

"...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." Romans 10:17

"...this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 John 5:11

"But not all of them welcomed the good news." Romans 10:16

"...whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son." 1 John 5:10

God sends the gospel message to people through the testimony of the Spirit. Inherent in that message is the faith to know it's true. Yet, most will choose to reject the message God has shown them to be true. They will not retain the word of faith God has spoken to their hearts.

It remains, Faith is not a gift that is offered for the taking.

There is a difference between the word of God from faith.

The truth found in scriptures comes to mind after reading your post, concerning the natural man, they they cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. With that, that would make that even while the gospel is preach to the natural man, even of different nations, they can not know it, at least not know it like one would have who have spiritual discernment.

Tong
R3917

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Faith is grace given by God according to the counsel of His will.

This much you have correct. God sends the sure and undeniable testimony of the Spirit to a person at the time of his choosing according to his will and providence. The door of faith remains closed for a person until He does that. A person can't choose whether to believe the message or not until God delivers that message to them by the word of faith through the Holy Spirit.

At least we agree that faith is grace and is given by God to a person, according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R3918

 

[Tong2020]

"Yes, apparently we read and see the passages differently. There will come a time that will change with us seeing the same. And since presently we see differently, with others seeing as you do and others seeing as I do, that we have such kind of discussions, hoping that we all would come to the truth and be one in the truth, to the glory of our God and Savior."

Amen, and we can still give glory to Christ in how we treat one another, and how teachable our spirits are. What I "believe" I know is a drop in the ocean compared to many on here and, even they too can change their minds with new revelations through scripture.

Amen.

It is rare that agreement is totally, 100% found in any two Christians, IMHO. And, yes! Agreed that there WILL come a time when we will see the one and same, Amen!

Amen.

"On John 6:37, you said “ My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)“...With me, I don’t see that in John 6:37. Even in Romans 12:3, Paul was not referring there to each and every man."

This is where we differ much...in the meaning of "all", "any" "the world", "whosoever's"...
Well then, why even use all those "all's" and "any's" at all?? It is not that complicated in my mind. You see it differently and that's fine bro.

Regarding your question, I would only point you to consider context. For example in Romans 12:3, Paul was referring to “everyone among you” to all persons belonging to the church, but not all human beings. So that, in the part where Paul said “God has dealt to each one a measure of faith, the “each one” there refers not to each human being on earth, but only to those who are among the church.

Jesus draws ALL men unto Him as He said if He be lifted up, He was and He did but not EVERY man will answer that knock, as we already know that "few will be saved". He has given His life for ours yet...not all will accept this unbelievable gift He has given us.

Yes Jesus did say He will draw all men to Himself in John 12:32. But this statement of Jesus must be taken in context. In v.13, We read “This He said, signifying by what death He would die.”. So, we should take v.12 in that context. The point was on by what death He would die, not really on the drawing of all peoples to Him.

But let’s now go beyond that. The death by which He would die, He said, will draw all to Himself. With that alone, we really have not much that tells us about said drawing. We can have light on this when we consider the truth that Jesus said in John 6:37,44 & 65. Considering these truths tells us that the drawing in John 12:32 is a different drawing and is not one that refers to coming to Jesus which Jesus refers to concerning the drawing He spoke about in the mentioned verses in John 6.

"Well, John 6:37 plainly says “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,”. Now, in my reading of scriptures and the reality I see, is that not all, that is, each and every man, come to Jesus."

No, not all will NOT come to Jesus, as I pointed out a few times, few will be saved, and even the righteous; scarcely.
My take is that The Father gives to His son ALL who will be humble enough to see their need for a savior. But we already know that their will be many who will love their sin more than God. I've never even intoned that "ALL" would be saved, that's Universalism. I DID say that NOT all will accept His gift or open to His knock.

2 Peter 3:9
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Again, this is plain, along with other verses that God is NOT willing any should perish so, it is backwards to me when I hear some say that God ordained some for destruction, arbitrarily as, that certainly does not line up at all with 2 Peter 3:9 AND, many others.

<<<My take is that The Father gives to His son ALL who will be humble enough to see their need for a savior. >>>

My take is that the ALL that the Father gives to Jesus Christ are only those whom the Father draws to the Son, in light of John 6:44 which says “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

"I think you are referring to John 12:32. If the drawing there involves each and every man, that would make each and every man as can come to Jesus, considering what Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” and would run against the words of Jesus in John 6:65, “…. no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”.

I believe that every man DOES have many opportunities to come to Jesus, some have hardened their heart and closed their minds and eyes as, Satan blinds them. A conscience can be worn totally away in some people And, eventually they will hear the Spirit no more as God gave them up to their sin and Satan.

May I ask, what do you mean when you said “…come to Jesus..”?

"While we read in scriptures concerning God’s desire that any should perish, it is not conclusive to me, that none will. In fact, the truth is that many will perish. And that truth does not at all tell us that He desired to damn them in Hell, not at the foundation of the world nor any time later."

Neither is it conclusive to me that none will perish, most will! I see people sending themselves to hell because of living their lives in sin, not God. He cannot change and, if one does not have Christ, they are damned, period. If you subscribe to the tulip doctrine then, you DO believe that God chose some to be saved (the "elect"),before ever being born, and that He chose others TO be damned, before being born, to show His Glory in His wrath.

I only subscribe to the doctrines of God found in scriptures.

My view is that men will go to hell because of sin, their sins. And whoever will not go to hell and will instead go to heaven is because of God’s grace, that is, salvation. Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man, nor is it something that could be worked on to attain or have as a wage. It is something that God gives according to the counsel of His will.

Agreed. Yet, I believe faith comes to each of us in a certain measure first. God's grace is much more than unmerited favor, it is His power to rise above our circumstances and temptations, victorious! And, without faith nobody can please Him. Ever think there are some out there who DO receive His grace yet, ignore it and stomp all over it?

To clarify my point a bit more, concerning and in regards to all human beings that is, grace (of salvation) is something that God gives according to the counsel of His will. You and I know that this is grace only God could give. It may well be spoken about everywhere at this very moment, but received only by them whom God gives it to according to the counsel of His will. For we learn from scriptures that the natural man can not know the things of the Spirit of God, such as the gospel concerning Jesus Christ, for such things are spiritually discerned. Who then would you say can know them?

With regards your question, “Ever think there are some out there who DO receive His grace yet, ignore it and stomp all over it?”. I think there are some, even many, who heard the preaching of the gospel concerning Jesus Christ, and see it as foolishness. It does not make any sense to them. One who receives the gospel, I think, certainly does not ignore it nor “stomp” over it. Rather, that person certainly will experience the power of it. For scriptures says that the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation.

"Tong
R3900
God is the Sovereign Creator of all! I am forever grateful and blessed that God had Himself known to me, even in the person of Jesus Christ."

Amen brother, and I am forever grateful that I answered His knock
All blessing, honor and glory to Him.

May I ask, why do you thank God of the matter that you say there that you “answered His knock”?

Tong
R3919

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<All gifts are an Offering, anyone can take or refuse to take.>>>

The scriptures leads me to disagree with that. Consider for example the gift of healing, was that offered to one who have the gift for the taking or refusal? Consider as well the other gifts in 1 Cor. 12, were they offered for the taking or refusal?

Scripture teaches that God's gifts can be refused.

Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

With regards to my questions in the quote, do you mean to say that one can either refuse or accept the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor.12? For all I know that God gives such gifts according to the counsel of His will, and needless to say, with purpose. And I believe God is never wrong and accomplishes His purpose.

With regards the scriptures you quoted, I don’t see where in there that it effectively teaches that God’s gifts can be refused.

Tong
R3920

 

[Stumpmaster]

With regards to my questions in the quote, do you mean to say that one can either refuse or accept the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor.12? For all I know that God gives such gifts according to the counsel of His will, and needless to say, with purpose. And I believe God is never wrong and accomplishes His purpose.

With regards the scriptures you quoted, I don’t see where in there that it effectively teaches that God’s gifts can be refused.

Tong
R3920

The gifts in 1 Cor 12 are not salvic, and I believe they can be variously used, abused, misused, and disused.
1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

Heb 3:7-8 Therefore, even as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you will hear his voice, (8) don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,

Heb 12:25-26 See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven, (26) whose voice shook the earth then, but now he has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens.”

 

[Tong2020]

The gifts in 1 Cor 12 are not salvic, and I believe they can be variously used, abused, misused, and disused.
1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

Heb 3:7-8 Therefore, even as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you will hear his voice, (8) don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness,

Heb 12:25-26 See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven, (26) whose voice shook the earth then, but now he has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens.”

<<<The gifts in 1 Cor 12 are not salvic …..>>>

I take all gifts that God gives have purpose. God gives them not without purpose. And needless to say, His purposes are good and liberating. They are definitely “salvic” (borrowing your word), in that sense. We both acknowledge that faith is a gift of God. And we both know that God saves through faith. That is definitely “salvic”, don’t you agree?

<<<…..and I believe they can be variously used, abused, misused, and disused.>>>

“Use, abuse, misuse, disuse”, only
means that one have such gifts to begin with. So those matters do not address the question “consider as well the other gifts in 1 Cor. 12, were they offered for the taking or refusal?”

Tong
R3922