Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.

[Taken]

<<<All gifts are an Offering, anyone can take or refuse to take.>>>

The scriptures leads me to disagree with that. Consider for example the gift of healing, was that offered to one who have the gift for the taking or refusal? Consider as well the other gifts in 1 Cor. 12, were they offered for the taking or refusal?

Tong
R3915

* God HAS a plethora of things He OFFERS to mankind.
* God OFFERS His OWN WORD...to notify mankind "WHAT" God "HAS" to "OFFER" mankind.

* YOU are a KIND of thing (that IS a man KIND of created creature.)
* YOU want to KNOW, about God?
Choose to Hear His Word.
* YOU want to KNOW, what God offers you?
Choose to Hear His Word.
* YOU "WANT" something Gods Word says God Offers man-KIND of creatures?
Choose to Hear His Word to LEARN "HOW" to receive 'WHAT' God Offers.
* YOU "WANT" something Gods Word says God Offers.... According to YOUR Terms, YOUR 'idea how YOU should receive Gods Offerings" ???
...Aint' going to happen.
* Gods Offering ARE Gods. LEARN by choosing to HEAR...WHAT God OFFERS...HOW a manKIND of Creature can Receive HIS Offerings....AND FREELY CHOOSE..."IF" you ARE "WILLING"...TO receive Gods Offerings...ACCORDING TO GOD WILL (TERMS)...OR NOT!
* IF a man freely chooses...YES, according TO GODS WILL (terms)...Great...He receives, Gods Offering.
* IF a man freely chooses....uh he wants Gods Offering.... BUT not "according to Gods WILL (terms)....eh...HE DOES NOT RECEIVE Gods Offering

Put that in perspective of an analogy men deal with on a daily basis...
You want a LOAN from a BANK...Do you Agree to THEIR "terms"...or sniffle and say you WANT their LOAN, but...eh, you WANT to set the "TERMS'....?

You want to attend a "College class"...Do you Agree to THEIR "terms"...or sniffle and say you WANT to participate in their Offered CLASS, but....eh, you WANT to set the "TERMS'?

* Gods OFFERINGS ARE TO ALL MEN.
* Gods OFFERINGS IS NOT A GUARANTEE ALL MEN WILL RECEIVE HIS OFFERING.
* The men WHO WILL Receive Gods Offerings, WILL receive His Offerings...
** BY the man FREELY CHOOSING TO ACCEPT GODS OFFERINGS, ACCORDING TO GODS "WILL< WAY<TERMS".

THE HOW, is expressly taught in Scripture.
* THE receiving of Gods Offerings are called GIFTS, which APPLIES to men, WHO HAVE Agreed to Gods "will, way, terms".
* The receiving Gods BLESSINGS, Applies to
ALL men...whether or Not, they Agree to receive Gods OFFERED Gifts.

Salvation IS AN Offering.
Receiving Salvation IS a GIFT.
TO receive Salvation requires the man to Agree to Gods Will, Way, Terms.

Men who DO NOT Agree, DO NOT RECEIVE GODS Offered Gift of Salvation...
Yet, EVEN THOUGH..they may COMPLETELY and utterly "REJECT" God...
they still receive "Blessings" from God.

 

[Stumpmaster]

We both acknowledge that faith is a gift of God.

In context it is certain the gift of faith mentioned in 1 Cor 12 is not supplied to all members of the body of Christ, but is the an enduement usually for a specific time. place, circumstance, activity or task.
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Some denominations forbid speaking in tongues, and others go the whole way to insist that all the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit have ceased to exist, hence their being known as Ceasationists.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
We both acknowledge that faith is a gift of God.

In context it is certain the gift of faith mentioned in 1 Cor 12 is not supplied to all members of the body of Christ, but is the an enduement usually for a specific time. place, circumstance, activity or task.
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Some denominations forbid speaking in tongues, and others go the whole way to insist that all the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit have ceased to exist, hence their being known as Ceasationists.

<<<In context it is certain the gift of faith mentioned in 1 Cor 12 is not supplied to all members of the body of Christ, but is the an enduement usually for a specific time. place, circumstance, activity or task.>>>

Regardless, the point remains concerning faith, it is a gift of God, and that it is not offered for the taking or refusal, as also are the other gifts of God. Whether God gives it to all or not was not the point I am making nor is the issue at hand.

Tong
R3924

 

[Tong2020]

* God HAS a plethora of things He OFFERS to mankind.
* God OFFERS His OWN WORD...to notify mankind "WHAT" God "HAS" to "OFFER" mankind.

* YOU are a KIND of thing (that IS a man KIND of created creature.)
* YOU want to KNOW, about God?
Choose to Hear His Word.
* YOU want to KNOW, what God offers you?
Choose to Hear His Word.
* YOU "WANT" something Gods Word says God Offers man-KIND of creatures?
Choose to Hear His Word to LEARN "HOW" to receive 'WHAT' God Offers.
* YOU "WANT" something Gods Word says God Offers.... According to YOUR Terms, YOUR 'idea how YOU should receive Gods Offerings" ???
...Aint' going to happen.
* Gods Offering ARE Gods. LEARN by choosing to HEAR...WHAT God OFFERS...HOW a manKIND of Creature can Receive HIS Offerings....AND FREELY CHOOSE..."IF" you ARE "WILLING"...TO receive Gods Offerings...ACCORDING TO GOD WILL (TERMS)...OR NOT!
* IF a man freely chooses...YES, according TO GODS WILL (terms)...Great...He receives, Gods Offering.
* IF a man freely chooses....uh he wants Gods Offering.... BUT not "according to Gods WILL (terms)....eh...HE DOES NOT RECEIVE Gods Offering

Put that in perspective of an analogy men deal with on a daily basis...
You want a LOAN from a BANK...Do you Agree to THEIR "terms"...or sniffle and say you WANT their LOAN, but...eh, you WANT to set the "TERMS'....?

You want to attend a "College class"...Do you Agree to THEIR "terms"...or sniffle and say you WANT to participate in their Offered CLASS, but....eh, you WANT to set the "TERMS'?

* Gods OFFERINGS ARE TO ALL MEN.
* Gods OFFERINGS IS NOT A GUARANTEE ALL MEN WILL RECEIVE HIS OFFERING.
* The men WHO WILL Receive Gods Offerings, WILL receive His Offerings...
** BY the man FREELY CHOOSING TO ACCEPT GODS OFFERINGS, ACCORDING TO GODS "WILL< WAY<TERMS".

THE HOW, is expressly taught in Scripture.
* THE receiving of Gods Offerings are called GIFTS, which APPLIES to men, WHO HAVE Agreed to Gods "will, way, terms".
* The receiving Gods BLESSINGS, Applies to
ALL men...whether or Not, they Agree to receive Gods OFFERED Gifts.

Salvation IS AN Offering.
Receiving Salvation IS a GIFT.
TO receive Salvation requires the man to Agree to Gods Will, Way, Terms.

Men who DO NOT Agree, DO NOT RECEIVE GODS Offered Gift of Salvation...
Yet, EVEN THOUGH..they may COMPLETELY and utterly "REJECT" God...
they still receive "Blessings" from God.

<<<God OFFERS His OWN WORD...to notify mankind "WHAT" God "HAS" to "OFFER" mankind.>>>

God do not offer His OWN WORD for the taking or refusal. He gives it according to the counsel of His will, and needless to say, with purpose.

Perhaps you can point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Word to man for the taking or refusal.

<<<Salvation IS AN Offering.>>>

Please point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Salvation to man for the taking or refusal.

Tong
R3925

 

[Taken]

<<<God OFFERS His OWN WORD...to notify mankind "WHAT" God "HAS" to "OFFER" mankind.>>>

God do not offer His OWN WORD for the taking or refusal. He gives it according to the counsel of His will, and needless to say, with purpose.

Perhaps you can point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Word to man for the taking or refusal.

<<<Salvation IS AN Offering.>>>

Please point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Salvation to man for the taking or refusal.

Tong
R3925

You can study the scriptures for yourself.
Jesus chose 12 disciples to Hear His Word.
The 12 agreed to Hear Jesus and walked with Jesus.
Jesus Himself would Speak His Word in the streets, and men of their own volition would stop to listen or pass on by.
As more stopped to listen, the disciples began announcing where Jesus would next BE to Speak.
People were talking ABOUT this Jesus...and people who had not heard this Jesus, were CURIOUS, and began going to where it was announced He would BE Speaking.
Some were in AWE of Jesus' Words...
Other were UNIMPRESSED and walked away.

Follow along...Jesus began DOING Miracles before the EYES of the Crowds.
Again the People were talking ABOUT this Jesus....DOING miracles.
Again the CURIOUS, began gathering TO HEAR? No. They were gathering TO SEE, this Jesus perform Miracles.
* Some Believed, they were Miracles by the Power of God.
* Others Believed, Jesus was Demon possessed and performing Miracles by the power of the Devil.

NO one FORCED ANY man to stop and Hear Jesus.
NO one FORCED ANY man to go to a particular place it was announced Jesus would be Speaking.
AND ALL the men WHO DID FREELY STOP to LISTEN, WHO DID FREELY GO to LISTEN....
Freely Chose to Believe Jesus,
Freely Chose Reject His Words,
Freely Chose to Continue to Listen,
Freely Chose to Walk away and Listen no more.

How THAT escapes your understanding...
IS amazing...
by the measure of "common sense"... and
by the measure of "spiritual understanding".

* Gods Offering of Salvation ... hangs ON one word..
"IF"...

Matt 16:
[24] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

Mark 4:
[23] If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 4:
[7] If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Luke 11:
[36] If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

On and on and on....IF< IF<IF...

AND "IF, IF, IF" any man DESIRES to have those "IF" offerings accomplished BY GODS WORKS IN the man....the HOW, is expressly required for a man TO FREELY, by the MANS OWN FREEWILL...AGREE TO SUMBIT TO GOD, according TO GODS WAY.

** GODS WAY, is expressly taught IN Scripture...
OPEN YOUR MOUTH, and CONFESS YOUR TRUE HEARTFUL BELIEF!

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

IF, IF, IF...ANY MAN Freely Chooses TO open his mouth and heartfully CONFESS Belief, He shall receive Gods Gift of Salvation.

IF, IF, IF, ...ANY MAN Freely Chooses TO NOT open his mouth and heartfully CONFESS Belief, He SHALL NOT receive Gods Gift of Salvation.

NOT a MYSTERY.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<God OFFERS His OWN WORD...to notify mankind "WHAT" God "HAS" to "OFFER" mankind.>>>

God do not offer His OWN WORD for the taking or refusal. He gives it according to the counsel of His will, and needless to say, with purpose.

Perhaps you can point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Word to man for the taking or refusal.

<<<Salvation IS AN Offering.>>>

Please point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Salvation to man for the taking or refusal.

You can study the scriptures for yourself.
Jesus chose 12 disciples to Hear His Word.
The 12 agreed to Hear Jesus and walked with Jesus.
Jesus Himself would Speak His Word in the streets, and men of their own volition would stop to listen or pass on by.
As more stopped to listen, the disciples began announcing where Jesus would next BE to Speak.
People were talking ABOUT this Jesus...and people who had not heard this Jesus, were CURIOUS, and began going to where it was announced He would BE Speaking.
Some were in AWE of Jesus' Words...
Other were UNIMPRESSED and walked away.

Follow along...Jesus began DOING Miracles before the EYES of the Crowds.
Again the People were talking ABOUT this Jesus....DOING miracles.
Again the CURIOUS, began gathering TO HEAR? No. They were gathering TO SEE, this Jesus perform Miracles.
* Some Believed, they were Miracles by the Power of God.
* Others Believed, Jesus was Demon possessed and performing Miracles by the power of the Devil.

NO one FORCED ANY man to stop and Hear Jesus.
NO one FORCED ANY man to go to a particular place it was announced Jesus would be Speaking.
AND ALL the men WHO DID FREELY STOP to LISTEN, WHO DID FREELY GO to LISTEN....
Freely Chose to Believe Jesus,
Freely Chose Reject His Words,
Freely Chose to Continue to Listen,
Freely Chose to Walk away and Listen no more.

How THAT escapes your understanding...
IS amazing...
by the measure of "common sense"... and
by the measure of "spiritual understanding".

* Gods Offering of Salvation ... hangs ON one word..
"IF"...

Matt 16:
[24] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

Mark 4:
[23] If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 4:
[7] If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Luke 11:
[36] If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

On and on and on....IF< IF<IF...

AND "IF, IF, IF" any man DESIRES to have those "IF" offerings accomplished BY GODS WORKS IN the man....the HOW, is expressly required for a man TO FREELY, by the MANS OWN FREEWILL...AGREE TO SUMBIT TO GOD, according TO GODS WAY.

** GODS WAY, is expressly taught IN Scripture...
OPEN YOUR MOUTH, and CONFESS YOUR TRUE HEARTFUL BELIEF!

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

IF, IF, IF...ANY MAN Freely Chooses TO open his mouth and heartfully CONFESS Belief, He shall receive Gods Gift of Salvation.

IF, IF, IF, ...ANY MAN Freely Chooses TO NOT open his mouth and heartfully CONFESS Belief, He SHALL NOT receive Gods Gift of Salvation.

NOT a MYSTERY.

I don’t know where that is coming from when nobody is saying anything about people being forced to do this concerning Jesus Christ.

And with regards my post, I will wait for you to point where God offers His Word to man for the taking or refusal, and also where God offers His Salvation to man for the taking or refusal.

That would be easy I think if there are.

The scriptures you provided with the “ifs” are not such scriptures. You apparently only take them as saying that, but actually do not.

Tong
R3927

 

[Nancy]

R3919[/QUOTE]

Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

So, that's not really for all men, just the elect is what you would say, yes? I wouldn't.

As far as the verses concerning the manner in which He would die, there can be more than one point to them. What to do with His words then? When He say's He will lift ALL men up to Him? Are they there for no reason?

We have come to an impasse bro, all of this will be ironed out when all's said and done.

God Bless.

 

[Taken]

<<<God OFFERS His OWN WORD...to notify mankind "WHAT" God "HAS" to "OFFER" mankind.>>>

God do not offer His OWN WORD for the taking or refusal. He gives it according to the counsel of His will, and needless to say, with purpose.

Telling me GODS WILL, to give His Word...
Is not the point.

The POINT is mans FREEWILL to accept or reject Gods WORD!

Perhaps you can point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Word to man for the taking or refusal.

Perhaps you could OPEN your EYES, OPEN your EARS ...
Perfect Scriptural EXAMPLE...is JUDAS .
He was called, He was chosen by Jesus....
HELLO...DID YOU NOT learn He rejected the Word of God?

Are you Oblivious to Athetists, who freely choose to Reject the Word of God?

<<<Salvation IS AN Offering.>>>

Please point to scriptures, if any, where God offers His Salvation to man for the taking or refusal.

Tong
R3925

Already did. Showed you. Can not Understand FOR YOU.

Can you POINT TO A SCRIPTURE that says MEN ARE FORCED to Receive Salvation "they don't want" ?

 

[Tong2020]

Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

So, that's not really for all men, just the elect is what you would say, yes? I wouldn't.

Rev.1:3 tells me that what is written in this scriptures is prophecy. And Rev. 3:22 tells me to whom these are told. Even Rev.1:11 tells me the same. With that, as for Rev.3:20, I take that matter to be written to the church, and as concerning those who are of the church, even more specifically, of the church referred to as the “church of the Laodiceans”.

As far as the verses concerning the manner in which He would die, there can be more than one point to them. What to do with His words then? When He say's He will lift ALL men up to Him? Are they there for no reason?

We have come to an impasse bro, all of this will be ironed out when all's said and done.

God Bless.

<<<When He say's He will lift ALL men up to Him?>>>

Well Jesus did not say He will lift all men up to Him. Rather that, if He is lifted up from the earth (signifying by what death He will die), He will draw all peoples to Himself.

Tong
R3928

 

[Tong2020]

Telling me GODS WILL, to give His Word...
Is not the point.

The POINT is mans FREEWILL to accept or reject Gods WORD!



Perhaps you could OPEN your EYES, OPEN your EARS ...
Perfect Scriptural EXAMPLE...is JUDAS .
He was called, He was chosen by Jesus....
HELLO...DID YOU NOT learn He rejected the Word of God?

Are you Oblivious to Athetists, who freely choose to Reject the Word of God?

<<<Salvation IS AN Offering.>>>



Already did. Showed you. Can not Understand FOR YOU.

Can you POINT TO A SCRIPTURE that says MEN ARE FORCED to Receive Salvation "they don't want" ?

The issue is whether grace (especially the grace of salvation) is an offer by God to man, for the taking or refusal or not.

You contend grace to be an offer for the taking or refusal, and so I requested that you point to scriptures that supports such contention.

On the other hand, I contend grace as not an offer, not something for the taking or refusal, because there is not a scripture that tells me that grace is an offering nor there is a scriptures that speaks of God offering grace to man for his taking or refusal.

<<<Can you POINT TO A SCRIPTURE that says MEN ARE FORCED to Receive Salvation "they don't want" ?>>>

Why, did I say men are forced to receive salvation they don’t want? Is that a straw man question or what? I have not said anything even something close to that.

Tong
R3929

 

[Nancy]

Rev.1:3 tells me that what is written in this scriptures is prophecy. And Rev. 3:22 tells me to whom these are told. Even Rev.1:11 tells me the same. With that, as for Rev.3:20, I take that matter to be written to the church, and as concerning those who are of the church, even more specifically, of the church referred to as the “church of the Laodiceans”.




<<<When He say's He will lift ALL men up to Him?>>>

Well Jesus did not say He will lift all men up to Him. Rather that, if He is lifted up from the earth (signifying by what death He will die), He will draw all peoples to Himself.

Tong
R3928

I believe pretty much everything in Rev. is prophecy, some already past, and some left to come.

Rev. 3:22 tells me it is for ANY one who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

Rev. 3:20 - I still stand on my original stance here...He is knocking, we will either answer or we will not.

Rev.1:11
This shows me that there are things He has against the Church's as a whole (cept for Phil. ) Or as some see it, perhaps it is referring to the Church ages?

"Well Jesus did not say He will lift all men up to Him. Rather that, if He is lifted up from the earth (signifying by what death He will die), He will draw all peoples to Himself."
Drawing all "men" or "peoples" are kind of the same thing, I'd say. And He DID say He would "draw" all men unto Him. NOT that all men will receive Him and His Lordship. I see these verses as having two meanings, "When He be lifted up"-manner in which He would die.
"Will draw ALL men unto Himself"- a promise.

 

[theefaith]

i can’t believe my ears when I hear a TV preacher who talks about the countless hours they’ve studied the scriptures, repeatedly say something so completely backwards that it’s staggering, especially because it pertains directly to salvation, thus is not a minor doctrinal error.

I just heard another preacher say the - mind boggling in its enormity of egregious error - statement that faith is our response to grace - thus claiming that grace precedes faith.

The very well known and often cited Ephesians 2:8-9 seems to be clear enough that by grace we are saved THROUGH faith.

Through: by way of - via - by means of.

By grace are we saved through - via - by means of, faith.

How can that possibly be misunderstood to the point of stating it backwards, and claim that grace comes first, because faith is our response TO grace?

Faith always comes first. It’s how we get to grace, how we access grace , as is very evident just from Ephesians 2:8-9 alone - but surely someone that said they’ve spent years reading the Bible all day long, would have come across the corroborating scriptures that reinforce the obvious fact that faith comes first, thus cant possibly come from a response TO grace.

Why is this important?

Because salvation occurs the moment we’ve received grace, after coming to faith, as is stated by Paul in Acts 16 to the jailer - believe in Jesus, and you will be saved.

Saying it backwards is saying this: be saved by Jesus and you will believe - which is the egregious error of Calvinists that are forced by their election dogma to put regeneration (salvation) before grace by faith, instead of regeneration by grace through faith

Here’s a couple of scriptures that the preachers who’ve studied the Bible for multiple thousands of hours should have come across, that reinforces the fact that faith precedes grace, and not vice versa:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access BY faith INTO this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is OF faith, that it might be BY grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.

I completely reject any cart-before-the-horse theology that has to put grace before faith to make it fit their dogma, thus putting salvation before faith

BTW faith is our response to hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - our faith isn’t a response to grace.

Maranatha

i can’t believe my ears when I hear a TV preacher who talks about the countless hours they’ve studied the scriptures, repeatedly say something so completely backwards that it’s staggering, especially because it pertains directly to salvation, thus is not a minor doctrinal error.

I just heard another preacher say the - mind boggling in its enormity of egregious error - statement that faith is our response to grace - thus claiming that grace precedes faith.

The very well known and often cited Ephesians 2:8-9 seems to be clear enough that by grace we are saved THROUGH faith.

Through: by way of - via - by means of.

By grace are we saved through - via - by means of, faith.

How can that possibly be misunderstood to the point of stating it backwards, and claim that grace comes first, because faith is our response TO grace?

Faith always comes first. It’s how we get to grace, how we access grace , as is very evident just from Ephesians 2:8-9 alone - but surely someone that said they’ve spent years reading the Bible all day long, would have come across the corroborating scriptures that reinforce the obvious fact that faith comes first, thus cant possibly come from a response TO grace.

Why is this important?

Because salvation occurs the moment we’ve received grace, after coming to faith, as is stated by Paul in Acts 16 to the jailer - believe in Jesus, and you will be saved.

Saying it backwards is saying this: be saved by Jesus and you will believe - which is the egregious error of Calvinists that are forced by their election dogma to put regeneration (salvation) before grace by faith, instead of regeneration by grace through faith

Here’s a couple of scriptures that the preachers who’ve studied the Bible for multiple thousands of hours should have come across, that reinforces the fact that faith precedes grace, and not vice versa:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access BY faith INTO this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is OF faith, that it might be BY grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.

I completely reject any cart-before-the-horse theology that has to put grace before faith to make it fit their dogma, thus putting salvation before faith

BTW faith is our response to hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - our faith isn’t a response to grace.

Maranatha

there is more than one grace or more than one kind of graces

 

[Tong2020]

I believe pretty much everything in Rev. is prophecy, some already past, and some left to come.

Rev. 3:22 tells me it is for ANY one who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

Rev. 3:20 - I still stand on my original stance here...He is knocking, we will either answer or we will not.

Rev.1:11
This shows me that there are things He has against the Church's as a whole (cept for Phil. ) Or as some see it, perhaps it is referring to the Church ages?

"Well Jesus did not say He will lift all men up to Him. Rather that, if He is lifted up from the earth (signifying by what death He will die), He will draw all peoples to Himself."
Drawing all "men" or "peoples" are kind of the same thing, I'd say. And He DID say He would "draw" all men unto Him. NOT that all men will receive Him and His Lordship. I see these verses as having two meanings, "When He be lifted up"-manner in which He would die.
"Will draw ALL men unto Himself"- a promise.

Let’s look at “will draw all men to Himself”. Can you share to me what you think that drawing is or means?

Would you say that such drawing is the same as that drawing Jesus spoke about in John 6:44?

Tong
R3930

 

[Marymog]

i can’t believe my ears when I hear a TV preacher who talks about the countless hours they’ve studied the scriptures, repeatedly say something so completely backwards that it’s staggering, especially because it pertains directly to salvation, thus is not a minor doctrinal error.

I just heard another preacher say the - mind boggling in its enormity of egregious error - statement that faith is our response to grace - thus claiming that grace precedes faith.

The very well known and often cited Ephesians 2:8-9 seems to be clear enough that by grace we are saved THROUGH faith.

Through: by way of - via - by means of.

By grace are we saved through - via - by means of, faith.

How can that possibly be misunderstood to the point of stating it backwards, and claim that grace comes first, because faith is our response TO grace?

Faith always comes first. It’s how we get to grace, how we access grace , as is very evident just from Ephesians 2:8-9 alone - but surely someone that said they’ve spent years reading the Bible all day long, would have come across the corroborating scriptures that reinforce the obvious fact that faith comes first, thus cant possibly come from a response TO grace.

Why is this important?

Because salvation occurs the moment we’ve received grace, after coming to faith, as is stated by Paul in Acts 16 to the jailer - believe in Jesus, and you will be saved.

Saying it backwards is saying this: be saved by Jesus and you will believe - which is the egregious error of Calvinists that are forced by their election dogma to put regeneration (salvation) before grace by faith, instead of regeneration by grace through faith

Here’s a couple of scriptures that the preachers who’ve studied the Bible for multiple thousands of hours should have come across, that reinforces the fact that faith precedes grace, and not vice versa:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access BY faith INTO this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is OF faith, that it might be BY grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.

I completely reject any cart-before-the-horse theology that has to put grace before faith to make it fit their dogma, thus putting salvation before faith

BTW faith is our response to hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - our faith isn’t a response to grace.

Maranatha

Hi Curtis.

Does God give grace to those that don’t have faith?

Thank you in advance...Mary

 

[Stumpmaster]

Regardless, the point remains concerning faith, it is a gift of God, and that it is not offered for the taking or refusal, as also are the other gifts of God.

A whole bunch of Ceasationists effectively refuse the Gifts of the Spirit, and the Pharisees that persecuted Christ effectively refused God's gift of salvation in the Person of Himself incarnate.

 

[Curtis]

there is more than one grace or more than one kind of graces

Not for salvation, there isn’t multiple graces.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Regardless, the point remains concerning faith, it is a gift of God, and that it is not offered for the taking or refusal, as also are the other gifts of God.

A whole bunch of Ceasationists effectively refuse the Gifts of the Spirit, and the Pharisees that persecuted Christ effectively refused God's gift of salvation in the Person of Himself incarnate.

I don’t have such a view on those who are called “cessationist” whatever that exactly means and refers to.

And I don’t see that as a refusal, more so, as proof that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are offered for the taking or refusal.

With regards the Pharisees that persecuted Christ, I don’t see that as proof that salvation is an offer for the taking or refusal either.

It is God who gives grace, even the grace of salvation. He gives grace to whom He wills to give it, according to the counsel of His will.

Tong
R3932

 

[Stumpmaster]

I don’t have such a view on those who are called “cessationist” whatever that exactly means and refers to.

You must have led a sheltered life . . .

Cessationism versus continuationism involves a Christian theological dispute as to whether spiritual gifts (Apostolic) remain available to the church, or whether their operation ceased with the Apostolic Age of the church (or soon thereafter). The cessationist doctrine arose in the Protestant Reformation, initially in response to claims of Roman Catholic miracles. Modern discussions focus more on the use of charismatic gifts in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

Cessationism is a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. Reformers such as John Calvin originated this view.[where?][citation needed] More recent development has tended to focus on other spiritual gifts too, owing to the advent of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement that have popularised a radical continuationism – the position that the spiritual gifts are meant for all Christians in every age.

Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the spiritual gifts have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called by believers in their existence "sign gifts",[1] such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism as a distinct theological position arose in opposition to cessationism.[citation needed]

Historically, the Catholic, Methodist, Moravian, and Pentecostal traditions of Christianity have preached continuationism while Dispensationalist, the confessional Reformed and Presbyterian, and much of the Anglican traditions have been cessationist. [2] Lutherans have held to a middle position that views the full range of spiritual gifts as not given exclusively through the medium of the first century canonical apostles, but not necessarily promised in every place and time in church history. [ Source: Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia ]

 

[Nancy]

Let’s look at “will draw all men to Himself”. Can you share to me what you think that drawing is or means?

Would you say that such drawing is the same as that drawing Jesus spoke about in John 6:44?

Tong
R3930

The Holy Spirit that Christ left with us, to live inside of us is who does the drawing, The Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. What that means is just what it says, to me. And yeah, I would say it's the one and same Spirit being lifted.

 

[theefaith]

Let’s look at “will draw all men to Himself”. Can you share to me what you think that drawing is or means?

Would you say that such drawing is the same as that drawing Jesus spoke about in John 6:44?

Tong
R3930

It’s actual grace
Then when faith and the sacraments happen you get sanctifying grace that makes you holy