That's like, the central tenet of Christianity man. To believe He died for our sins. If you don't believe that, you don't have faith.
Christ only died for past sins...
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That's like, the central tenet of Christianity man. To believe He died for our sins. If you don't believe that, you don't have faith.
Pardon me, but I don’t quite get what you mean by “repent of our inability to be righteous”?
Also what I understand scriptures is that it is when we come to repentance unto God and faith towards Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ baptize us with the Holy Spirit, that we are cleansed from all our unrighteousness.
Let me ask a question. Scriptures says that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. What do you understand by that?
Tong
R4002
Okay so you're just outright assuming I'm not saved then. Okay. Wonder why. Oh well.
That's enough internet for me today.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
We were still sinners, meaning later we wouldn't be. But that does not mean after we die, but now.
Revelation 22:11 shows two sets of people. One group going to hell, and one group going to heaven. After death we will remain in the state we died in, either sinners or righteous. There is no purgatory to overcome sin in for a sinner to become righteous.
But we cannot become righteous on our own, no matter how much we study the law. That was the problem depicted in Romans 7:13-25. Why? Because of the sin nature we were born with because of Adam's sin is naturally in opposition to the laws of God. We must realize this inability to be righteous on our own, and ask Jesus to cleanse our very nature. That is when He makes us born again and gives us a new nature that is filled with the power of God. It hates sin, and instead of being in opposition to the law, the laws are written on our new nature making them now part of our instinct to be naturally righteous.
<<<Ananias and Sapphira do appear to have lost salvation.>>>
They died on the spot when they lied, that’s what scriptures says. There is nothing said about their salvation.
With regards the parable concerning the prodigal son, this is what we read:
Lk.15:24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
Lk.15:32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Clearly what story it tells about, is about a son who was lost and is found. It is NOT about one who is saved and lost salvation and then was saved again.
Besides, if we read the entirety of the parable, it is simply not a parable given by Jesus to teach whether salvation could be lost or not. As I pointed out in my post, doing so is a misuse of the said scriptures.
Tong
R4003
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<<<We do not have the assurance we are the elect. Only God knows who they are. We do not have that assurance because we do not know what may happen in our future.>>>
I agree that we do not know what may happen in the future. However, that does not mean that because of that, one could not have assurance of his salvation. For regardless, the truth which you pointed out, that is, there is security for the elect remains.
May I ask, do you have assurance or certainty that God exist? If you do have, can you tell us why or what makes you certain about that?
Tong
R4004
<<<That is not failure.>>>
If when God chastise his erring child, and He was not able to discipline him as to bring him to repentance and learn from his error, is not failure on the part of God, then what is it? I am sure that no one would regard that as a successful chastisement on the part of God. You could put the blame on the child, but you cannot take away that the one who failed to achieve the end result, is God. And as I pointed out, at the end, God never fails in achieving His purpose/s.
Consider a father chastising his erring son. Obviously, the father has a good end result he wanted to achieve by that. And if he does not achieve it, that is unmistakably and indisputably a failure on his part. You can blame it on his son, but nevertheless, the one who failed to achieve the end result, is the father.
Now, if you don’t look at it that way, I am not at all forcing you not to. I could only hope.
Tong
R4005
At least you agree that it is hypothetical.
Still the case remains hypothetical, that is, not factual, not real, not actual.
And while it perhaps point to what would be the result on such hypothetical case, it does not follow that there are such cases. So, that passage is shown to come short of proving your case that the salvation of the saved, that is, of the elect or children of God, could be lost.
Tong
R4006
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins? I do. And not only for me, but for all those whom the Father had given to Him to raise up on the last day unto eternal life, those who find themselves as can come to the Son, as were drawn by the Father, and who did come, truly believing in Him.
Tong
R4007
Thank you for your thoughts there.
Scriptures says that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. For me, that is profound.
One thing it tells me that it means, is that Christ saved us at that point in time or that His salvation of us was actually done at that point of time with respect to our sense of time. So that, all that follows is the unfolding out of what He had done at that point in time. The “us” there refers to all those who were saved by Him, that includes those who lived in the past, living at that present time, and those who will come to being in the future. We at present (of those future to that time) who had come to Jesus Christ, are among those for whom Christ died and saved.
Another would be that, Christ died at that point in time, for the past sins of those whom He saves who lived in the past, for the past and present sins of those whom He saves who are presently alive at that time, and for the future sins both of those whom He saves who are presently alive at that time and those who will come into being future to that point in time.
Still another would be that, His salvation of them is by grace, and not because they are righteous. In fact they are all sinners, as all of mankind are.
Tong
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No that's not it. I don't believe he died for my sins either. Only for the people he chooses. If that is us then I am happy.
But He already had decided that even before His actual death on the cross more than 2000 years ago. He will die no more.
If you find or have found yourself as can come to Jesus Christ, and did come, truly believing in Him, then you can rest assured, He died for you. For that is what scriptures teach.
Tong
R4010
No @Tong2020 you can't rest. You must always be righteous and follow Jesus that way. Jesus' is the God of the righteous, not the God of evil.
Do I get it right? You don’t believe that Jesus died for your sins?
If that is the case, may I ask, do you believe your sins are forgiven by God?
Tong
R4012
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Oh but I can and I do rest in God and Jesus Christ. It seems to me that is not the case with you. But not because you can’t, that it follows that the truth is that we can’t rest.
And to think that in saying that, that it means that I could go sinning, is a mistake.
Tong
R4013
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I don't want to jump the gun here before I comment.
Would you please briefly outline what your specific understanding of the Salvation process is and what "information" ( writing, chapter/verse/etc.) that you base your understanding on?
Thank you
Deuteronomy 32:39
King James Version
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Matthew 25:34
King James Bible
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Neither one of those answers the question i asked.( and you know that)
In a step by step manner- what do you understand the salvation process to be and on what do you base it?
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