I don't think Predestination means Salvation

[CharismaticLady]

Here is more CL;
Communion with Christ is the privilege of those who are continually
striving to grow in grace, and faith, and knowledge, and conformity to
the mind of Christ in all things,--who do not "look to the things
behind," and "count not themselves to have attained," but "press toward
the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
(Phil. iii. 14.)

Union is the bud, but communion is the flower:

union is the babe, but communion is the strong man. He that has union with Christ
does well; but he that enjoys communion with Him does far better.

Both have one life, one hope, one heavenly seed in their hearts,--one Lord,
one Saviour, one Holy Spirit, one eternal home: but union is not so good
as communion! The grand secret of communion with Christ is to be
continually "living the life of faith in Him," and drawing out of Him
every hour the supply that every hour requires. "To me," said St. Paul,
"to live is Christ."--"I live: yet not I, but Christ liveth in me."
(Gal. ii. 20; Phil. i. 21.)
Is communion with Christ like this a common thing? Alas! it is very rare
indeed! The greater part of believers seem content with the barest
elementary knowledge of justification by faith, and half-a-dozen other
doctrines, and go doubting, limping, halting, groaning along the way to
heaven, and experience little either of the sense of victory or joy. The
Churches of these latter days are full of weak, powerless, and
uninfluential believers, saved at last, "but so as by fire," but never
shaking the world, and knowing nothing of an "abundant entrance." (1
Cor. iii. 15; 2 Pet. i. 11.) Despondency and Feeble-mind and
Much-afraid, in "Pilgrim's Progress," reached the celestial city as
really and truly as Valiant-for-the-truth and Greatheart. But they
certainly did not reach it with the same comfort, and did not do a tenth
part of the same good in the world! I fear there are many like them in
these days! When things are so in the Churches, no reader can wonder
that I inquire how it is with our souls. Once more I ask,--In the matter
of communion with Christ, "How do we do?"

You've listed one of my favorite verses, so can't see how we can be so far apart doctrinally. But I do appreciate that we are at least being more civil. Now if only Christophany would lighten up! Not sure what his problem is...

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. But wouldn't you say that salvation begins with more than a "prompting"? After all, Paul was thrown from his horse right? (smile)

However he ‘prompts’....either a still small voice or a blinding light...is no guarantee those prompted will respond positively. Balaam was prompted yet he chose an adverse path.

 

[CadyandZoe]

However he ‘prompts’....either a still small voice or a blinding light...is no guarantee those prompted will respond positively. Balaam was prompted yet he chose an adverse path.

Many are called few are chosen.

 

[quietthinker]

Many are called few are chosen.

We are all called but few choose

 

[CadyandZoe]

Correct, (according to the Word of God, that applies to WHOSOEVER, is born of God).
And to clarify...I believe SIN is only Against God, and ONLY God forgives SIN.

As my SIN, "was" Against God, for being naturally born, NOT BELIEVING IN HIM...
He forgave me for HAVING HAD Disbelief.
He Restored (saved) (Pss 23:3) my soul.
He Quickened (born again my spirit), with His SEED, and He Keeps me IN soul life (with His breath) and spirit life (with His Seed)....and with and in Him with HIS Spirit....that NEVER AGAIN, is it possible for me to "NOT BELIEVE IN HIM" (is SIN).

Consider the Ten Commandments. By observation we can see that the first four relate specifically to sin against God. The last six relate specifically to sin against humankind. And so, John defines "sin" as transgression of the law, which includes proscriptions applicable to both God and man. Why do you then say that sin is only against God.

I agree that John's comments are focused on disbelief, but his is NOT suggesting that being born of God renders moral failure impossible. Is that what you are saying? Are you saying that you are never impatient, never selfish, never compromise, never omit the truth, never lust, never hate etc.?

 

[CadyandZoe]

We are all called but few choose

Do you honestly believe that Jesus meant "we chose" by "chosen"? Did we choose or were we chosen?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Do you honestly believe that Jesus meant "we chose" by "chosen"? Did we choose or were we chosen?

Actually thats exactly what he meant. (Thats a very weak translation to English) The root word there in context with the tense identified from "are called" is eklegomia (Strongs G1586) which IS ( identified as present tense of the act) the act of chosing or voting individually for one's self.

It would be better updated as "many are offered but few accept" ( or take)

 

[quietthinker]

Do you honestly believe that Jesus meant "we chose" by "chosen"? Did we choose or were we chosen?

I think we are all chosen in Jesus and through his spirit are called. Consider what the angels told the shepherds on Bethlehem’s hills ‘do not be afraid, for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people ‘ Luke 2:10 It appears clear to me that God views us favourably.... the question is, how do we view God?
Do we believe him, are we suspicious, do we push him away? Yes, we choose what we do with God.

 

[MatthewG]

I don't think Predestination means Salvation

Fair enough; I believe it is just answering the call -

Hebrews 3:8 don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tested me in the wilderness.

The call of God is to all people - and it is up to them if they receive it and go forward in having a relationship with God or not.

Some people can even walk away from the Call - Depending the circumstances life deals.

 

[Taken]

Consider the Ten Commandments. By observation we can see that the first four relate specifically to sin against God. The last six relate specifically to sin against humankind. And so, John defines "sin" as transgression of the law, which includes proscriptions applicable to both God and man. Why do you then say that sin is only against God.

No Law can save a man.
My Lord fulfilled the Law.
My Lords POWER dwells within me, AND KEEPS TWO Laws fulfilled IN ME...
1) to love the Lord God above all things.
2) to love my enemies.

Whatever Scriptural laws you KEEP yourself under... is your option, and has none effect on me.

I agree that John's comments are focused on disbelief, but his is NOT suggesting that being born of God renders moral failure impossible. Is that what you are saying? Are you saying that you are never impatient, never selfish, never compromise, never omit the truth, never lust, never hate etc.?

What I have precisely said; IS I have been OFFERED by my Lord, a WAY, His WAY,
to freely, willingly, agree to ESTABLISH "MY" Relationship WITH and IN my Lord God.

Do you HEAR...??
An Established relationship between MY Lord and MYSELF.

You and other people, were not considered, asked, included in establishing a Relationship BETWEEN the Lord God and Myself.

Are you saying that you are never impatient, never selfish, never compromise, never omit the truth, never lust, never hate etc.? [/QUOTE

EVER Impatient with my Lord? No
EVER Selfish with my Lord? No
EVER Compromise my Lord? No
EVER Omit the truth to my Lord? No
EVER Lust after my Lord? No.
EVER Hate my Lord? No

You are confused.
Other men are NOT my Lord, NOT my god, NOT my savior.
I have never established an agreement with other men to "faith-FULLY BELIEVE IN, or complete-ly TRUST any earthly man".

My FAITH-FULLNESS of Belief is IN my Lord.
My Complete TRUST is IN my Lord.
My Established RELATIONSHIP is WITH and IN my Lord.

I have NOT established a relationship with ALL other men.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[charity]

Even Judas was "chosen." So don't give me chosen as a defense. What we do is our responsibility.

The whole nation of Israel was God's elect, but not all of them were even in Abraham's bosom, nor accepted Jesus.

Hello @CharismaticLady,

I have only now read your OP.

I also do not believe that predestination relates to salvation, but to what accompanies it. (Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:5 & Ephesians 1:11 KJV - translated 'foreordained' in this translation)

Would you please explain your words,' in Abraham's bosom,' (Luke 12:22) used in this regard, please?

Blue Letter Bible:-
Abraham's side, or bosom, is seen by many as a term that is synonymous with death. Those who are in Abraham's bosom are those who have died. Therefore, it is a symbolic way of describing the dead. 2. Hades Or Sheol There is also the view that Abraham's bosom is another way of describing the unseen realm of the dead known as Hades or Sheol.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello @CharismaticLady,

I have only now read your OP.

I also do not believe that predestination relates to salvation, but to what accompanies it. (Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:5 & Ephesians 1:11 KJV - translated 'foreordained' in this translation)

Would you please explain your words,' in Abraham's bosom,' (Luke 12:22) used in this regard, please?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

It is where Old Testament saints went when they died. Also called Paradise. I'm not sure but I expect it is empty now, and they all rose when Jesus did as they were seen walking around, and were part of the Old Covenant. I also expect that our spirits will go straight there when we die in the New Covenant to be with Jesus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually thats exactly what he meant. (Thats a very weak translation to English) The root word there in context with the tense identified from "are called" is eklegomia (Strongs G1586) which IS ( identified as present tense of the act) the act of chosing or voting individually for one's self.

It would be better updated as "many are offered but few accept" ( or take)

Do you call yourself also? I don't think so.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think we are all chosen in Jesus and through his spirit are called. Consider what the angels told the shepherds on Bethlehem’s hills ‘do not be afraid, for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people ‘ Luke 2:10 It appears clear to me that God views us favourably.... the question is, how do we view God?
Do we believe him, are we suspicious, do we push him away? Yes, we choose what we do with God.

But I want to talk about the moment just before we make our choice. How many of us experience a "conversion", when we suddenly woke up as if we were asleep? And whereas we wanted one thing, in the next moment we wanted something completely different?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Do you call yourself also? I don't think so.

Do you have any relevant legitimate experience in actual analysis and translation of items between languages or other actual study into the subject or is this just your unqualified opinion based on "whatever"?

If you do have any, I welcome your 'reasoned" rebuttal ( if you have one) and i will add more to mine.

Which one is it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No Law can save a man.
My Lord fulfilled the Law.
My Lords POWER dwells within me, AND KEEPS TWO Laws fulfilled IN ME...
1) to love the Lord God above all things.
2) to love my enemies.

Whatever Scriptural laws you KEEP yourself under... is your option, and has none effect on me.

Let's stick with the text okay? We are discussing your interpretation of John's letter, focused on chapter three where John defines sin as "transgression of the law". You are focused on one verse out of many, cutting it loose from John's argument. By this method we can assign any meaning to the verse we desire. So at this point you need to ask yourself, are you interested in understanding what John is teaching us or are you interested in defending your own understanding?

What I have precisely said; IS I have been OFFERED by my Lord, a WAY, His WAY,
to freely, willingly, agree to ESTABLISH "MY" Relationship WITH and IN my Lord God.

Do you HEAR...??
An Established relationship between MY Lord and MYSELF.

Great. Fantastic. Praise the Lord. I am happy for you, since you have the best part.

And I am certain you can have this relationship without a Bible. I mean, if you were stuck on a deserted island without a Bible, I'm certain you would have a meaningful and fulfilling relationship with the Lord.

Your relationship with the Lord was never in doubt. We are simply two brothers discussing a passage of scripture and attempting to allow the passage to teach us what it wants to teach us. Right?

Did John say we cannot sin? Maybe. I personally think that "does not sin" is a more accurate rendering of that verse. But the bottom line is this: John isn't making a generalized statement about sin. Most translators think he is, which is why they translate "sin" as "practicing sin", recognizing that we all commit a sin at times, but as followers of Jesus we don't make sin a practice. But that isn't John's point at all. Rather, John's focus is on one particular sin: blaspheme. He doesn't use the term blaspheme, but the issue is whether Jesus, being a human man, can also be the incarnate son of God. John says yes, his opponents disagree, suggesting that it is wrong and evil to suggest that a man is God.

John argues that, No, believing that Jesus Christ, the son of God, having come in the flesh, is not a sin. Such a person "does not sin" when he believes it. This supports your point that because we have his seed in us, we cannot sin; but only as it pertains to our fundamental belief that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you have any relevant legitimate experience in actual analysis and translation of items between languages or other actual study into the subject or is this just your unqualified opinion based on "whatever"?

If you do have any, I welcome your 'reasoned" rebuttal ( if you have one) and i will add more to mine.

Which one is it?

Are you one of those who relies on experts or can you think for yourself? Just asking. I want to know who is speaking here.

 

[quietthinker]

But I want to talk about the moment just before we make our choice. How many of us experience a "conversion", when we suddenly woke up as if we were asleep? And whereas we wanted one thing, in the next moment we wanted something completely different?

I can not speak for the experience of others... only of my own.
This is how it played out:-

As a 20 yr old my objective was to join with others in heckling a group of also young people planning a public witness of their faith in Jesus accompanied with songs they sang.

It was a balmy evening in a park by the waterside. We arrived and listened to the presentation which was on the return of Jesus. Nobody heckled, contrary to the plan.
When the show was over the participants mingled with the crowd.
Two of the girls engaged me with questions which in my arrogance I sidestepped knowing they were out to proselytise.
One of the girls anger flared with my avoidance; she blurted out in frustration ‘well what do you want?’ Those words were greater than words coming from teenage lips....they were words which reverberated through my reality/consciousness and felt compelled to answer. I knew instinctively that whatever I replied with would determine the direction I took. I said without thinking ‘I want to be with Jesus when he comes’.
No sooner were the words out of my mouth than peace flooded/enveloped my whole person.
The rest of the evening is a blur but what I do know is, my life ie, my interests, my talk, my priorities and my habits irreversibly changed....I did a 180 degree turn.

50 yrs have nearly gone by but that encounter with God’s Spirit speaking to me though the voice of that girl has not faded.
The journey since has taken me to a variety of places some of which I have left behind. Those I have kept has made what I have today; a dynamic relationship with my Saviour.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Are you one of those who relies on experts or can you think for yourself? Just asking. I want to know who is speaking here.

Both, now stop waffling and answer my original question and lets have your "rebuttal" ( you will find out real quick then as to how much I "cant think for myself")

 

[MatthewG]

John 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;