I don't think Predestination means Salvation

[quietthinker]

Both, now stop waffling and answer my original question and lets have your "rebuttal" ( you will find out real quick then as to how much I "cant think for myself")

I think C+Z have shot straight...and yes, it’s confronting but what a way to sort out pretenders.

 

[MatthewG]

Psalm 27
King James Version

27 The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

2 When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

3 Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his temple.

5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord.

7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up.

11 Teach me thy way, O Lord, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.

12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.

13 I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

14 Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the Lord.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I think C+Z have shot straight...and yes, it’s confronting but what a way to sort out pretenders.

For the most part I agree and I have no issue at all with being confronted on a point of credibility (I do it myself)

The proof is in the pudding so I'm waiting on the "answer" now then we will all see.

 

[quietthinker]

For the most part I agree and I have no issue at all with being confronted on a point of credibility (I do it myself)

The proof is in the pudding so I'm waiting on the "answer" now then we will all see.

I suppose answering the prior question to you would get the ball rolling.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I suppose answering the prior question to you would get the ball rolling.

Totally. I have no issue being challenged on any point I make but don't hand me a "drive by" comment as if it means something then start ducking.

I can back up everything I say- this aint my first rodeo.

I was challenged ( which is fine by me) now I want to see the "basis" for this challenge so I can cross examine it. (I have no issue with a legitimate debate or discussion)

 

[Taken]

Let's stick with the text okay? We are discussing your interpretation of John's letter, focused on chapter three where John defines sin as "transgression of the law". You are focused on one verse out of many, cutting it loose from John's argument.

My interpretation?
I gave no interpretation, but simply said I trust Johns Exact Words.
I have NOT changed Johns Exact Words, to "include" my interpretation.

I have clearly said, I believe Johns Exact Words, as they are.

By this method we can assign any meaning to the verse we desire. So at this point you need to ask yourself, are you interested in understanding what John is teaching us or are you interested in defending your own understanding?

Up front I have said on numerous occasions...
Scripture IS KNOWLEDGE.
ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE.... Period.

Now for the additional FACTS...
NOT ALL SCRIPTURE APPLIES TO ALL MEN

God Directed His Word to be Written in a Book, Rehearsed in the youngers Ears, Later Copied, Distributed amongst the Tribes, and all people.

Ex 17:
[14] And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua...
Esth 3:
[14] The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, that they should be ready against that day.

Men have copied, and for ease of reference, made Titles, Chapters, Verses, Punctuiations, published and distributed.

The TRUTH in the Book has NOT CHANGED...
The APPLICABILITY of an individual man, TO SPECIFIC WORDS in the BOOK...HAS NOT CHANGED.

Me READING, Johns words, or ANY Title, Chapter, Verse, Portion of Verse... accounted as "according to John"... or any other person in Scripture...(ie According to Jesus, According Matthew, According to Mark, According to Luke, etc.)
IS Knowledge, I ALREADY have confirmed WITH "my" word, I believe IS TRUE, and Reliable to TRUST.

I KNOW, what Choices I have Freely made, what Commitments I have made TO the Lord God, and thereafter....BECAUSE OF MY freely chosen Commitments....
WHAT Scriptures:
DO and DO NOT APPLY TO Me, and WHY.

"Me acknowledging ALL that Jesus taught, ALL that John Taught...is one thing."

"YOU attempting to APPLY TO ME, that which DOES NOT APPLY TO ME"...is another thing".

"MY SIN Against God...WAS NOT for violating, any of the 600+ Mosaic Laws to the Hebrews and Tribes."

"MY SIN Against God...WAS NOT for violating, any of Gods 10 Commandments given the Hebrews and Tribes".

"MY SIN Against God...WAS:
1) Being naturally Born in Sin, of a mans seed.
2) Was my Bodily Lifes "DISBELIEF" in God.
3) Was my Bodily Lifes "CORRUPTION" of Gods Breath of Life, IN a Soul that belongs to God, He imparted INTO ME.

I don't Speak FOR YOU.
I speak FOR myself.
* The Lord God OFFERED ME, Gods WAY, to hear Gods Word, learn, experience a Taste of His Blessings for Hearing His Word, an Option choose or reject, continuing to HEAR, LEARN Gods Word....and His Gift of measures of Faith FOR Hearing His Word, and Gods Gift of increased measures of His Gift of Faith, FOR Continuing to Hear....IN preparation WITH Gods Gift of Faith...TO Opportune ME THE OPTION....TO FREELY ACCEPT and CONFESS MY Believe IN HIM, TO HIM....OR REJECT ALL that He OFFERED ME.

I MADE my Freewill Choice...and on more than one occasion Have Expressly revealed by MY Testimony, (on this forum) of my Freewill Choice to Accept Gods Offering, by, though, and of Christ Jesus.

It matters NOT, if an other BELIEVES my Testimony...I fully Trust, He to whom I made my Confession, being the Lord Himself, DID, accept my Confession.
And I fully Trust precisely WHAT the Lord God Himself PROMISED (according to His Understanding) would BE FOLLOWED BY, HIS WORKS IN ME, (His WORKS of CONVERSION)...HAVE been Accomplised...
Finished and WILL BE Done according to HIS TRUE WORD.

Because I TRUST the Lord God...I also ONLY Apply to me...the Scriptures THAT DO APPLY TO a CONVERTED MAN.

I am fully aware, The Lords Disciple/Apostles were SENT TO PREACH and TEACH TO:
Men, who Knew not OF God, OF Jesus, OF Christ, OF His Word, Of His Offerings, OF Satan, OF his offerings, OF Gods Blessings, OF Gods Desires, Of Gods Consequences FOR Choosing Him or Rejecting Him, OF Gods Consequences of Choosing to Stand With Gods Enemies....
POINT BEING
I have "already" made MY ELECTION and made MY CONFESSED COMMITMENT"...
TO the Lord God Almighty!

* You appear to presume all that is taught, in Scripture, I must consider applying to me....
And quite frankly that is hogwash!

Did John say we cannot sin? Maybe.

.

Not...'not we', can not sin, but rather precisely WHO can not SIN, and precisely WHY.

I personally think that "does not sin" is a more accurate rendering of that verse.

Personally, I find no need to rewrite Scripture, but rather, Apply what applies to me, and not be concerned with that which does not apply to me.

But the bottom line is this: John isn't making a generalized statement about sin. Most translators think he is, which is why they translate "sin" as "practicing sin",

As well do you also generalize what John says, when you imply it generally applies to "WE", when it specifically applies to "WHOSOEVER IS" specifically "born of God".

recognizing that we all commit a sin at times,

Which "then" becomes "your" mindset to "MAKE", the statement;

we all commit a sin at times

Nope that does not apply to me.
Never do I Stand Against God. I can not.
No man is all knowing. No man has the power greater than that of Satan, to not fall for his cunning trickery..."Only Gods Power is Greater than Satan"...
It is precisely, By Gods Offering, FOR HIS POWER TO BE "IN" me....And my ACCEPTANCE FOR HIS POWER TO BE IN ME...
THAT NEVER AGAIN...can ANY POWER "SEPARATE ME"...
FROM "standing For, With, In God".

I've become MADE included IN Gods House...and a HOUSE DIVIDED can NOT STAND.

Never will Gods HOUSE be Divided and Fall!

but as followers of Jesus we don't make sin a practice. But that isn't John's point at all. Rather, John's focus is on one particular sin: blaspheme. He doesn't use the term blaspheme, but the issue is whether Jesus, being a human man, can also be the incarnate son of God. John says yes, his opponents disagree, suggesting that it is wrong and evil to suggest that a man is God.

John argues that, No, believing that Jesus Christ, the son of God, having come in the flesh, is not a sin. Such a person "does not sin" when he believes it. This supports your point that because we have his seed in us, we cannot sin; but only as it pertains to our fundamental belief that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

You should have learned...Scripture covers application TO ALL PEOPLE.
Much of the OT and NT was teaching
BY Hebrews/Tribesmen/ Jews....
TO Hebrews/Tribesmen/Jews...
BY Hebrews/Tribsemen/Jews...

And SIN FOR a Hebrew/Tribsman/Jew...
Was (and still is for those men remaining under the law)....violation of their Laws...
Men against God, Men against Men...

I was NOT given a reprieve FROM THE LAW...
I was NOT ever included Under the LAW.

Sin of man against man...was exclusively according to the Law.
And when you proclaim you "still commit sin"....it is according to the Law....
OF Hebrews, Tribesmen, Jews!
THAT does not apply to me.

My SIN was exclusively AGAINST God...
My SIN was exclusively appealed and repented UNTO GOD, FOR HIS FORGIVENESS.
ONLY God could FORGIVE MY SIN AGAINST HIM....for having HAD Disbelief for corrupting the SOUL (that IS His) He put within me.
And ONCE FORGIVEN...HIS POWER KEEPS me IN STANDING WITH and IN Him Forever.

So yes...whatever you think, say, believe...has NO bearing on me.

You might though, (IF YOU BE A GENTILE) Hear, read, study, what the Lord God gave to the Gentiles (600+ laws?) or an Option to Hear, receive measures of Faith, He bless with tastes of partaking of His Holy Spirit, His Offering of Forgiveness, Salvation and Quickening FOR...Confession of Heartful Belief IN HIM
And what else BECOMES "Required" for that individual mans "Reasonable Service" unto The Lord God? ZIP. NADA. NOTHING.
Follow Laws? Follow Traditions? Follow Rituals? Go to Church Buildings? Do works for God? Keep Asking God for what He has already Given me?
No, No, and No.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[charity]

It is where Old Testament saints went when they died. Also called Paradise. I'm not sure but I expect it is empty now, and they all rose when Jesus did as they were seen walking around, and were part of the Old Covenant. I also expect that our spirits will go straight there when we die in the New Covenant to be with Jesus.

Hello @CharismaticLady

Yes, I have heard this before concerning Abraham's Bosom being considered to be the place where Old Testament saints went when they died, but have yet to find a source for that information. I was told that Josephus mentions it as a doctrine held by the Pharisees, he himself having been a Pharisee. Can you give me any Scripture that confirms this doctrine to be true Scripturally? If it were a Pharisaic doctrine it would explain the Lord's use of it in Luke 16:22: for the Lord was seeking to show the absurdity and hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching in His use of the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

I respectfully question your thoughts expressed concerning the Old Testament saints rising when Jesus did. Also why should you expect our spirits to go straight there when we die? When we are told clearly that the breath of life (or spirit) goes back to God who gave it? For there can be no life apart from Resurrection. Again what Scripture is there to confirm this?

Perhaps another thread is required to answer this, rather than derail the subject of this thread.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CadyandZoe]

My interpretation?

Yes your interpretation.

I gave no interpretation, but simply said I trust Johns Exact Words.

Before you can trust John's words, you first must understand what John said. Your understanding of what John said is YOUR interpretation. I disagree with your understanding of what John said.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello @CharismaticLady

Yes, I have heard this before concerning Abraham's Bosom being considered to be the place where Old Testament saints went when they died, but have yet to find a source for that information. I was told that Josephus mentions it as a doctrine held by the Pharisees, he himself having been a Pharisee. Can you give me any Scripture that confirms this doctrine to be true Scripturally? If it were a Pharisaic doctrine it would explain the Lord's use of it in Luke 16:22: for the Lord was seeking to show the absurdity and hypocrisy of Pharisaic teaching in His use of the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

I respectfully question your thoughts expressed concerning the Old Testament saints rising when Jesus did. Also why should you expect our spirits to go straight there when we die? When we are told clearly that the breath of life (or spirit) goes back to God who gave it? For there can be no life apart from Resurrection. Again what Scripture is there to confirm this?

Perhaps another thread is required to answer this, rather than derail the subject of this thread.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

For some reason I can't make a copy of the verses. Look at Luke 16:19-31 (I think). Rich man is talking to Abraham and asking him to ask his servant, Lazarus to dip his finger into water. The rich man and his servant have both died and there is a huge gap between them. The side that Lazarus is on is referred to Abraham's bosom, only because it somehow belongs to Abraham. Jesus referred to it as Paradise for the thief on the cross. Same place.

 

[Taken]

Yes your interpretation.

Before you can trust John's words, you first must understand what John said. Your understanding of what John said is YOUR interpretation. I disagree with your understanding of what John said.

How about you cross out and fill in what you think John REALLY MEANT TO SAY?

THEN tell me what YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS.

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Both, now stop waffling and answer my original question and lets have your "rebuttal" ( you will find out real quick then as to how much I "cant think for myself")

No, I would rather not.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

No, I would rather not.

Definitely a smart move on your part and totally expected.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can not speak for the experience of others... only of my own.
This is how it played out:-

As a 20 yr old my objective was to join with others in heckling a group of also young people planning a public witness of their faith in Jesus accompanied with songs they sang.

It was a balmy evening in a park by the waterside. We arrived and listened to the presentation which was on the return of Jesus. Nobody heckled, contrary to the plan.
When the show was over the participants mingled with the crowd.
Two of the girls engaged me with questions which in my arrogance I sidestepped knowing they were out to proselytise.
One of the girls anger flared with my avoidance; she blurted out in frustration ‘well what do you want?’ Those words were greater than words coming from teenage lips....they were words which reverberated through my reality/consciousness and felt compelled to answer. I knew instinctively that whatever I replied with would determine the direction I took. I said without thinking ‘I want to be with Jesus when he comes’.
No sooner were the words out of my mouth than peace flooded/enveloped my whole person.
The rest of the evening is a blur but what I do know is, my life ie, my interests, my talk, my priorities and my habits irreversibly changed....I did a 180 degree turn.

50 yrs have nearly gone by but that encounter with God’s Spirit speaking to me though the voice of that girl has not faded.
The journey since has taken me to a variety of places some of which I have left behind. Those I have kept has made what I have today; a dynamic relationship with my Saviour.

I am honored to hear your testimony. Thank-you for sharing that with me.

I refer to this as "the miracle of salvation", which seems to answer to the question, what does it mean: "saved by grace"? Who knows, maybe that young woman had a similar experience? And before her? Who knows. The more I think about it, the more I realize that salvation doesn't come at a critical moment of crisis. It begins much sooner and only in retrospect do we realize that the Holy Spirit was already at work. Perhaps this realization is the basis for Paul's confession, ""But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles . . ." ( Galatians 1:14-15 )

This is why predestination makes sense to me.