Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
And then there are those that don't come back. Super-duper grace won't save them.
Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It is possible for believers to fall away from grace and be lost. Some simply do not respond to correction and prefer to live in sin in unbelief.
Yes I definitely love the figure that Jesus used there in John 10. Him being the Shepherd? Who could we want to be our Shepherd other than Him?
Tong
R4186
My question was:
Would you say it is possible that God will fail to achieve that purpose for disciplining His children?
You are aware that your reply evades the question. Unless, by that, your answer is a no and that is your explanation?
As I said, a simple yes or no would be enough. Now if after a yes or no, and you feel like explaining why, that would be nice as well.
Please let’s have a simple, fair and clear discussion. Don’t you want that as well?
Tong
R4187
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You have blessed me @Tong... I have been wooed by Father... He has been ever so diligent and long suffering in bringing me unto Himself.
I have been one who has been like a wounded animal... and most FEARFUL and MISTRUSTING of EVERYONE...due to severe trauma.... yet God.. in His infinite GRACE has continued to call and beckon me... until such a time as I was able to TRUST HIM. There are no words to explain my conversion experience... It has been a long and slow journey for this little old soul.... but OH.... the DEPTH of my LOVE and DEVOTION to Him is because HE first LOVED me.
So many Christians think it is all about them.... I cannot wrap my brain around anyone "thinking" that they are good and deserving of anything.
Pride seems to have blinded the eyes of many.
I have nothing to bring as an offering to Christ.... yet I come boldly because HE has invited me... and I place down my HEART at the altar.
Being a Christian is not about duty... It is about relationship... and surrendering our hearts completely to the ONE who is WORTHY.
He does not require our sacrifice... HE requires our hearts.
It grieves me deeply when I read words of accusation against the SHEEP who are are resting and trusting... and BELIEVING.
It's all in the PRECIOUS BLOOD of CHRIST.
I have been one who has been like a wounded animal... and most FEARFUL and MISTRUSTING of EVERYONE...due to severe trauma.... yet God.. in His infinite GRACE has continued to call and beckon me... until such a time as I was able to TRUST HIM. There are no words to explain my conversion experience... It has been a long and slow journey for this little old soul.... but OH.... the DEPTH of my LOVE and DEVOTION to Him is because HE first LOVED me.
So many Christians think it is all about them.... I cannot wrap my brain around anyone "thinking" that they are good and deserving of anything.
Pride seems to have blinded the eyes of many.
I have nothing to bring as an offering to Christ.... yet I come boldly because HE has invited me... and I place down my HEART at the altar.
Being a Christian is not about duty... It is about relationship... and surrendering our hearts completely to the ONE who is WORTHY.
He does not require our sacrifice... HE requires our hearts.
It grieves me deeply when I read words of accusation against the SHEEP who are are resting and trusting... and BELIEVING.
It's all in the PRECIOUS BLOOD of CHRIST.
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So no regarding His children. Why, does God disciplines those who are not His children? He does not, right?
On the other hand it is a yes, that is, God will fail in his purpose of disciplining, concerning those you say leave the family.
Those you refer to who leave the family, are they God’s children who leave the family?
Tong
R4188
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Each of us have experienced conversion differently. But the bottom line is, blessed are those whom the Father have given to the Son to save unto eternal life, an everlasting life with our loving God, our creator.
Well, as for me, I recall the days when I do had such a thinking. Thank God for granting me repentance on that one.
Tong
R4189
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Not anymore. Just like when a person leaves Adam's family, they are no longer Adam's children. And so God has no obligation to have anything to do with someone who is not in his family.
The gospel really isn’t: be good and do good.
The gospel is: trust Me.
All our ideas of be good and do good are messed up by our fallen self.
From beginning to end, any good He does in us comes through trust.
We aren’t in a race of be good do good, we are in a race of trust.
If I can only touch the hem of His robe I will be healed…is that be good do good, or is it trust?
Lord, I want to see…is that be good do good, or is it trust?
What was God looking for from them in the desert? Was it be good do good, or was it trust?
Are we saved by grace through be good do good, or are we saved by grace through trust(faith)?
Did He say to anyone your be good do good has saved you, or did He say, your trust has saved you?
Did He ever say your be good do good has healed you or did He say your trust has healed you?
When you see the word faith, when you see the word believe, it means trust.
Does it say, when He saw his/her be good do good He was amazed and said, I have never seen such be good do good in all of Israel? No. It says He was amazed when He saw her trust and He said, I have not seen such trust in all of Israel. Why was He amazed at such trust?
Does it say, and He could not do many miracles there because of their lack of be good do good, or does it say He couldn’t do many miracles there because of their lack of trust?
Did Jesus learn the obedience of be good do good from what He suffered, or did He learn the obedience of trust from what He suffered?
Oh, when I want to be good do good, I find that something in me causes me to do the opposite. Oh who will save me from this wretched man.?!
The entire Bible, from beginning to end, screams out, trust Me! Trust Me! DO YOU TRUST ME??
The gospel is: trust Me.
All our ideas of be good and do good are messed up by our fallen self.
From beginning to end, any good He does in us comes through trust.
We aren’t in a race of be good do good, we are in a race of trust.
If I can only touch the hem of His robe I will be healed…is that be good do good, or is it trust?
Lord, I want to see…is that be good do good, or is it trust?
What was God looking for from them in the desert? Was it be good do good, or was it trust?
Are we saved by grace through be good do good, or are we saved by grace through trust(faith)?
Did He say to anyone your be good do good has saved you, or did He say, your trust has saved you?
Did He ever say your be good do good has healed you or did He say your trust has healed you?
When you see the word faith, when you see the word believe, it means trust.
Does it say, when He saw his/her be good do good He was amazed and said, I have never seen such be good do good in all of Israel? No. It says He was amazed when He saw her trust and He said, I have not seen such trust in all of Israel. Why was He amazed at such trust?
Does it say, and He could not do many miracles there because of their lack of be good do good, or does it say He couldn’t do many miracles there because of their lack of trust?
Did Jesus learn the obedience of be good do good from what He suffered, or did He learn the obedience of trust from what He suffered?
Oh, when I want to be good do good, I find that something in me causes me to do the opposite. Oh who will save me from this wretched man.?!
The entire Bible, from beginning to end, screams out, trust Me! Trust Me! DO YOU TRUST ME??
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So let me sum up what i gather from what you are saying in your reply posts so far:
1. God disciplines His children.
2. God’s purpose in disciplining His children is so that we may share in His holiness.
3. That it is NOT possible that God will fail to achieve that purpose for disciplining His children.
4. That it is possible that God will fail to achieve that purpose for disciplining some of His children, those that leave the family.
5. That the children of God who leaves the family, are no longer God’s children.
That is clearly your position, based on your reply posts.
Tong
R4190
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I never said you did, maybe others have but that did not come from me. I was just clearing up the false claims some have made about calvininsts and lumping them all together as a whole. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Or 1 bad apple spoils the entire bunch concept.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Now I'm an ecumenist. If you only knew...
Please show me from the Bible where this is distinctly taught. And who is "us?" I consider you a friend and brother, but I'm not sure exactly how to draw a clear distinction between "us and them." I'm quite certain I have beliefs that would qualify me as a preacher of "another gospel" to you. All of this choosing sides that goes on in these discussions really makes me nervous. If any of us want to strictly obey the instruction in the Bible not to associate with certain persons, we might as well close down our accounts right away.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
In getting on my IGNORE list... I had an attitude that day... LOLI'm sorry--in what, exactly?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I am not blessed with your gentleness or patience... and I have severe grievances over this topic.Oh
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
See, now this is where everything always goes sideways (great post overall, btw). I honestly don't think anyone on this thread believes that good works are meritorious toward salvation. I think the argument is that a person who has been converted or born again will, throughout their life, tend towards striving to be good and do good. We all seem to be putting the cart before the horse, in some way. The fact is, the very grace that forgives and changes a person's heart is exactly the same grace that works in them to will and to do of God's good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). We try to separate that grace into a double-sided coin, with justification on one side, and sanctification on the other, as if never the twain shall meet. But they are so tightly integrated, we can barely imagine it. It is part of the mystery of godliness.
Perhaps we could keep in mind that our very best works are tainted with nuances of selfishness and, therefore, are nothing more than a pitiful offering that God accepts as devotional, but nothing more. Even our prayers have to be translated into purely righteous ones by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26). To be fit for the abodes above, one must be clothed with the spotless, shining, white robe of Christ's righteousness alone. Nothing less will do. But there is a judgment of our own works. It must be seen by God's unfallen creation that we are devoted to God's kingdom of righteousness enough that no 2nd rebellion will ever rise.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but I don't seem to be invited to the party, though. Lol. I'm not beating up on you. I just want you to see what you're doing.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It is not possible for God to fail to achieve his goal of holiness out of those who continue to believe.
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